Sears Point -Infinion Raceway 9-09 UPDATE/RESULTs HOLBERT CAR DESTROYED BY CIVIC.
09-09-2009, 12:53 PM
#167
Nordschleife Master
Rent a forklift.
09-09-2009, 12:57 PM
#168
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I think I did it myself and a friend with the old 84 chassis. In fact I have some video of me military pressing the front of the car for a joke, and then a friend put the post hole digger under the nose. we then just scooted the engine and drive train out the front. 
I still dont remember very much of how we did it, but the entire drive train was lowered first.
I still dont remember very much of how we did it, but the entire drive train was lowered first.
09-09-2009, 02:41 PM
#169
Three Wheelin'
sh*t Mark.... but sh*t happens. Now IF you go racing , this IS the thing to expect some day. No illusions , either cruise or race till this. 
PS and now... HOPE !
PS and now... HOPE !
09-09-2009, 03:57 PM
#170
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Hey Mark, Haven't been on the 'list in a while. Just checked in today and saw this. Can't add anything that hasn't already been said but of course we are all commiserating with you over the loss of your car--I think we can all feel this one in our bones.
Dan
Dan
09-09-2009, 04:15 PM
#171
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Sorry to hear about the car and hope you haven't suffered any unseen injuries...
That being said, IMHO any car with 'legendary' status should never have been on a track in the first place. It was a record holder and in the history books and deserves to be in a museum. Restore it and put it behind velvet ropes where it belongs. It is an integral part of 928 history and needs to be regarded as such. Racing and abusing it would be like taking Stan's one of a kind Perlglanz to the track and destroying it too.
Want to race? Take a garden-variety common 928 and abuse it. You know enough about the Holbert car's technology to duplicate its performance... just don't trash another rarity -please.
That being said, IMHO any car with 'legendary' status should never have been on a track in the first place. It was a record holder and in the history books and deserves to be in a museum. Restore it and put it behind velvet ropes where it belongs. It is an integral part of 928 history and needs to be regarded as such. Racing and abusing it would be like taking Stan's one of a kind Perlglanz to the track and destroying it too.
Want to race? Take a garden-variety common 928 and abuse it. You know enough about the Holbert car's technology to duplicate its performance... just don't trash another rarity -please.
I've been sick for the past week, and not much time on the RL. Very sad but honorable ending for the famed Holbert car. Glad that you are ok. I totally disagree with White Lightnin, you took the Holbert car and returned it to it's deserved glory, and for this you should be commended
09-09-2009, 05:18 PM
#172
Rennlist Member
^^^+928
Dr Porsche would be proud. These cars are meant to be driven, not polished. There is no more fitting end to a car like the Holbert car than going out in the heat of battle.
I hate that it got crunched, especially if it means the end of the Holbert car. But, if its gotta go, this is the way.
That said, PLEASE, PLEASE do everything you can to see if the original car can be salvaged. Its not every day that you can play an important role in preserving history.
Dr Porsche would be proud. These cars are meant to be driven, not polished. There is no more fitting end to a car like the Holbert car than going out in the heat of battle.
I hate that it got crunched, especially if it means the end of the Holbert car. But, if its gotta go, this is the way.
That said, PLEASE, PLEASE do everything you can to see if the original car can be salvaged. Its not every day that you can play an important role in preserving history.
09-09-2009, 05:23 PM
#173
Rennlist Member
Sorry Larry & Mark and others that disagree with my statement... as it does have precedence.
There would be no need for museums, static displays, concours car shows, etc. if vehicles were ran hard and 'used as they were meant to be used'. The same can be said for tanks, planes, spacecraft, etc.
The fact that some people see the historical importance and the engineering genius behind these works of man -and choose to save them for posterity... that is what is truly commendable.
For museums, collections, restorers & preservationists to exist and thrive in this 'throw it away, buy something else' society, makes it astonishing.
Mark, you know what needs to be done to duplicate the performance of the Holbert engine/car & can make it happen with another car -a common one. Still, IMHO the Holbert car can & should be restored with all its original numbers-matching equipment intact (or what is left) and put on display as the Record Breaking car it is...
Think about it- would it be advisable or respectable to take an Abarth out of a collection and put it on the track competitively? Or, take a triple crown winning horse out of retirement and risk it to run another race? Or, take a WWII Sherman tank out of a museum and put it in Afghanistan against the Al Qaeda?
Sure, it is doing what they were made to do... and I suppose there is some 'glory' in living to its full purpose until destroyed -but to what cost? Deprive future generations of their influence? Have the only reference to their existence & contributions be in a history book? Enable & promote the 'throw away' mentality?
Certainly there has to be a better solution...
Just my .02
There would be no need for museums, static displays, concours car shows, etc. if vehicles were ran hard and 'used as they were meant to be used'. The same can be said for tanks, planes, spacecraft, etc.
The fact that some people see the historical importance and the engineering genius behind these works of man -and choose to save them for posterity... that is what is truly commendable.
For museums, collections, restorers & preservationists to exist and thrive in this 'throw it away, buy something else' society, makes it astonishing.
Mark, you know what needs to be done to duplicate the performance of the Holbert engine/car & can make it happen with another car -a common one. Still, IMHO the Holbert car can & should be restored with all its original numbers-matching equipment intact (or what is left) and put on display as the Record Breaking car it is...
Think about it- would it be advisable or respectable to take an Abarth out of a collection and put it on the track competitively? Or, take a triple crown winning horse out of retirement and risk it to run another race? Or, take a WWII Sherman tank out of a museum and put it in Afghanistan against the Al Qaeda?
Sure, it is doing what they were made to do... and I suppose there is some 'glory' in living to its full purpose until destroyed -but to what cost? Deprive future generations of their influence? Have the only reference to their existence & contributions be in a history book? Enable & promote the 'throw away' mentality?
Certainly there has to be a better solution...
Just my .02
09-09-2009, 05:39 PM
#174
Administrator - "Tyson"
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This past July I was watching a 100% real 250 GTO slide sideways through turn 14 at Road America. The value of this GTO makes the Abarth look like a used Civic.
Cars can be fixed. The problem is the value of cars like the GTO means the owner is more likely to have the funds to do the repairs and a six figure restoration is a drop in the bucket compared to the value.
The problem for the Holbert car is Mark doesn't have the funds to build another race car much less restore the Holbert car.
The cost of doing a full restoration will greatly exceed the value of any 928 on the road. This is going to prevent pretty much anyone from touching this project. Even Porsche doesn't seam to give a sh*t about this car or the history behind it.
It would be nice if someone with deep pockets grabbed the Holbert car and put the pieces back together.
As for "the original motor" how do we know with this cars colorful history this is the same engine that broke the speed record? Just curious.
09-09-2009, 06:33 PM
#175
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Great points.
I think if someone with deep pockets that is a 928 fan is out there, they better speak up quickly, or we need to raise a LOT of money to put Humty Dumpty. Because between the almost conflicting goals I have now, there is no way Ill be able to do both, let alone get a car built for next years season even with some help.
Here are some additional pictures of the chassis. the more I look at it, the more I see.
these shots show the right side impact so that it took the runners and floor boards and move them in. the cage, just bent inward, but you can see it in the floor boards and the tunnel. Look at the top of the tunnel near the gear shifter. Look at the top of the hivac area beneath the windshield. we are missing about a 1 foot there ! under the car, you can see cracking on the bell housing on the driver side that goes all the way to the top.
sad sad sad.
Next steps?
phase I
1. get engine running and just make sure its ok (getting a coil to replace the only thing that should keep it from running.
2. check transmission out for all gears working
3. remove all interior race stuff, seat, belts, dash, ecu's and aluminum sheet covers.
4. drop engine and transmission . probably will have to use jaws of life or something to spread shock towers apart. There is header tube damage on one tube.
5. remove good door and rear hatch, bumper side plastic window. (one broken)
6. find a way to remove the passenger wheel driven into the chassis and stuck.
7. remove brakes and lines and all suspension parts that are salvagable. Koni system looks good. no leaks. It might be just fine.
8. decide what to do with chassis.
Phase II
9. Get chassis from 928intl. and bring up to NorCal
10 cut and skin chassis as best we can
11. bolt on as much of the race stuff as possible and install engine/transmission
12. install cage
13. paint
14 race!
I think if someone with deep pockets that is a 928 fan is out there, they better speak up quickly, or we need to raise a LOT of money to put Humty Dumpty. Because between the almost conflicting goals I have now, there is no way Ill be able to do both, let alone get a car built for next years season even with some help.
Here are some additional pictures of the chassis. the more I look at it, the more I see.
these shots show the right side impact so that it took the runners and floor boards and move them in. the cage, just bent inward, but you can see it in the floor boards and the tunnel. Look at the top of the tunnel near the gear shifter. Look at the top of the hivac area beneath the windshield. we are missing about a 1 foot there ! under the car, you can see cracking on the bell housing on the driver side that goes all the way to the top.
sad sad sad.
Next steps?
phase I
1. get engine running and just make sure its ok (getting a coil to replace the only thing that should keep it from running.
2. check transmission out for all gears working
3. remove all interior race stuff, seat, belts, dash, ecu's and aluminum sheet covers.
4. drop engine and transmission . probably will have to use jaws of life or something to spread shock towers apart. There is header tube damage on one tube.
5. remove good door and rear hatch, bumper side plastic window. (one broken)
6. find a way to remove the passenger wheel driven into the chassis and stuck.
7. remove brakes and lines and all suspension parts that are salvagable. Koni system looks good. no leaks. It might be just fine.
8. decide what to do with chassis.
Phase II
9. Get chassis from 928intl. and bring up to NorCal
10 cut and skin chassis as best we can
11. bolt on as much of the race stuff as possible and install engine/transmission
12. install cage
13. paint
14 race!
You must not frequent many vintage races.
This past July I was watching a 100% real 250 GTO slide sideways through turn 14 at Road America. The value of this GTO makes the Abarth look like a used Civic.
Cars can be fixed. The problem is the value of cars like the GTO means the owner is more likely to have the funds to do the repairs and a six figure restoration is a drop in the bucket compared to the value.
The problem for the Holbert car is Mark doesn't have the funds to build another race car much less restore the Holbert car.
The cost of doing a full restoration will greatly exceed the value of any 928 on the road. This is going to prevent pretty much anyone from touching this project. Even Porsche doesn't seam to give a sh*t about this car or the history behind it.
It would be nice if someone with deep pockets grabbed the Holbert car and put the pieces back together.
As for "the original motor" how do we know with this cars colorful history this is the same engine that broke the speed record? Just curious.
This past July I was watching a 100% real 250 GTO slide sideways through turn 14 at Road America. The value of this GTO makes the Abarth look like a used Civic.
Cars can be fixed. The problem is the value of cars like the GTO means the owner is more likely to have the funds to do the repairs and a six figure restoration is a drop in the bucket compared to the value.
The problem for the Holbert car is Mark doesn't have the funds to build another race car much less restore the Holbert car.
The cost of doing a full restoration will greatly exceed the value of any 928 on the road. This is going to prevent pretty much anyone from touching this project. Even Porsche doesn't seam to give a sh*t about this car or the history behind it.
It would be nice if someone with deep pockets grabbed the Holbert car and put the pieces back together.
As for "the original motor" how do we know with this cars colorful history this is the same engine that broke the speed record? Just curious.
09-09-2009, 06:46 PM
#176
What if it had been backed into by a forklift while still on the factory floor? Or if Holbert lost control on the salt? Or if a speeding race car blew the lights and ran into it while serving as a medical car? Or hit by an anonymous Caprice while seeing DD duty a couple owners ago?
The fact is this car is famous because of an achievement. And it continued to achieve in a variety of ways, and its history is much richer for it. Had it been put in a museum immediately after setting the speed record it would have nowhere near the achievements it now has. Tell a kid to stop after he aces a test? Nope, let him reach for more.
It has achieved old warhorse status and with this final injury, can no longer compete and deserves to be preserved. I'm glad Mark ran it hard and if it was closer I'd be tempted to buy it myself. Hopefully someone will preserve it well.
Worth watching again: Holbert sets the record
The fact is this car is famous because of an achievement. And it continued to achieve in a variety of ways, and its history is much richer for it. Had it been put in a museum immediately after setting the speed record it would have nowhere near the achievements it now has. Tell a kid to stop after he aces a test? Nope, let him reach for more.
It has achieved old warhorse status and with this final injury, can no longer compete and deserves to be preserved. I'm glad Mark ran it hard and if it was closer I'd be tempted to buy it myself. Hopefully someone will preserve it well.
Worth watching again: Holbert sets the record
09-09-2009, 07:00 PM
#178
Rennlist Member
But, if we compare apples to apples -we are 928 fans. This car is one of the 'holy grail' cars for us. What would we think if someone took the all-stainless 928 out of the museum and tracked it? Or one of the prototypes? Or Kermit? Or the last 928 GTS ever made? Or Ferry's modified 928?
There should be some self-imposed limits to the fate of historical or milestone cars... maybe it's just me that thinks this?
09-09-2009, 08:11 PM
#179
Nordschleife Master
Working the problem backwards ....
1) Is there a good home for the Holbert car, once its at least cosmetically fixed?
2) Who is willing to help fix it with skills, parts, or money?
3) Where can it go for the fixing process to start?
4) What are the terms Mark wants to pass it on?
I don't see the car as ever being safe to drive at speed again, but what about looking good and OK to drive up to 35 to 50 mph, or even just on and off a trailer?
Does it matter if restoration was a very slow process?
1) Is there a good home for the Holbert car, once its at least cosmetically fixed?
2) Who is willing to help fix it with skills, parts, or money?
3) Where can it go for the fixing process to start?
4) What are the terms Mark wants to pass it on?
I don't see the car as ever being safe to drive at speed again, but what about looking good and OK to drive up to 35 to 50 mph, or even just on and off a trailer?
Does it matter if restoration was a very slow process?
09-09-2009, 08:22 PM
#180
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Has anyone pinged Porsche's museum director, Herr Bischoff, about this?
I believe Mark Anderson was shown around the new museum by him during Mark A.'s last visit while at the Porsche awards dinner at Porsche AG.
At least that way it will put that thought to bed, one way or the other.
I believe Mark Anderson was shown around the new museum by him during Mark A.'s last visit while at the Porsche awards dinner at Porsche AG.
At least that way it will put that thought to bed, one way or the other.