James Bailey

Seems clear to me that she does not want to be seen looking like a 1990s Dentist's wife....... odds are she is more concerned with how she LOOKS to others than anything remotely involved with how it performs . I have had several students spin a 911 and NOT know WHY or HOW it happened ! Just keep in mind there is NOTHING rational or logical about what one LIKES ! Or why one " LOVES ".

Kevin Michael

Al Holbert had something to say about this so I'll rest my case on that. Also Worf I am in total agreement with your comments. Anyone who is experiencing what Cobalt is, you have issues to address. I have new everything under my 928 and I will tell you it puts my 911's to shame in the corners, you just have to have the ***** to drive a 928 in to a corner wide open. Then you will be amazed at what the car does at mid entry to exit. If I did the things in my 911's as I did in my 928, I'd be dizzy from the spinning, if you know what I mean. The 911 would win in autocross but out in the opens a good 928 driver with big enough ***** will embarrass it. I've been on both ends of it. If I had to sell my 928's or my 911's, I would sell all of them as I couldn't bear to be without either.

bigs

In all truth, this thread - at least the OP's initial question - has nothing whatsoever to do with the relative merits of 928's vs. 911's.

It has everything to do with marital equity and decision-making.

So, JCP...

Is the 928 YOUR car? In other words, is it a car that you bought mainly for your use and enjoyment? And does your wife have a car that is HER car?

If so, she really has no right to tell you what to do with YOUR car!

OTOH, if it is "OUR" car, then she has just as much input as you do in the matter. Cuz then it's recognized by both of you to be "community" property.

But even in a marriage, there is such a thing as personal property - and the right of the owner of said personal property to determine its fate.

In my marriage, I am the recognized owner of the 928. I am also the recognized owner of the Audi. These are "my cars." My wifey is the recognized owner of the Lexus. It is "her car." I would never dream of forcing her to do something I desired with HER Lexus!

Another example: My home computer is a PC. My wife's home computer is a Mac. I don't think I'd have any right to insist that she trade her Mac for a PC simply because I prefer the PC.

As another example, I have two Fender guitars and an old Martin D18 acoustic guitar. I am the recognized owner of those guitars, and my wife really doesn't have any right to pressure me to get rid of them.

My wife has a collection of Lladro figurines. Those are HER property. I would never push her to sell or trade the figurines that she chose.

The exceptions would be if there is severe financial strain in a marriage, and selling an item would alleviate the financial strain. Or if some item posed a clear and present danger to a spouse or children.

For example, if I owned a bullet bike, had received a few speeding tickets, and my wife was justifiably worried for my safety, then she would have the right of expressing her concerns and trying to persuade me to sell the bike.

But your scenario has your wife pressuring you to sell a car for another very similar car - just because.

Even in my wonderful marriage of 39 years, this would be time for a firm but gentle discussion on the topic of a spouse's personal property.

SwayBar

When the 928's and my 993 are parked together somewhere, the 993 gets all the attention, much to the chagrin of the 928 guys.

When Hacker Pschorr shows up in Pop's 355 and parks next/near to the 993, the 355 gets all the attention, and I too begin to think the 993 may as well be a Volkswagen; I shamelessly admit I love that 355!

worf928

A non-leaking rack can still be crap - it can be internally worn. If your rack has been replaced than the one you have now might be far older than the one you should have. If not, if it ever leaks see if you can get that rack rebuilt instead of taking chances on a random rebuilt.


It does. What you originally wrote (emphasis mine) doesn't though:

... and that's why I responded the way I did. Have you been to Hallet in OK? That's the roughest track I've ever been on and the only time my rear end hasn't felt planted (except for doing dumb-*** stuff of course).

I'm not a fan of the bilsteins. I have them with Eibachs on my '91 and they are coming out as soon as I have time - they make the car feel nervous. I haven't tasted them on stock sport springs though.

cobalt

There is no reason to resent either side for comments that are not overly exaggerated as some can be. The 911 is not dangerous and the 928 is no slouch. The 911 is a sports car and the 928 is a GT. Both excel in their fields.

We are splitting hairs here. Does the 928 have to be the best at everything, even if it wasn't specifically designed for that purpose?? Because I hate to say, it is not. However, that doesn't take away from what it is: a great car, fabulous GT cruiser and jack of all trades. At best is going on 15 years and is running far older yet advanced for the time technology. Face it the newer cars out of the box are more purpose built and therefore capable.....period. Years of advancements and computer aids give the newer cars abilities these cars will never have without destroying their original intent and purpose. Sorry to say the new Panamera has already proven it can out perform many high performance sports cars and that is in full luxury 3900 pounds shaking it's big ugly *** in everyone's faces. Any of the older cars are no longer in the same game as the super cars of today. They might come close but face it we no longer are king of the hill. For some reason this has sparked this entire series of debates trying to find our place in history. Sorry my expression but Hell we drive these cars because they have character and communicate to us in a way that the new flashy plastic does not. I hate to say it because for some reason this community can't understand the 928 is not leagues ahead of the 911 and the 911 is not leagues ahead of the 928.

I am not trying to bash the 928 here and I do know the difference between each model and I know if a rack is going or not. I just replaced the unit in my C2 and I can assure you the rack in my GTS is in the same shape as the rest of my GTS which is in equally sound shape mechanically as it is cosmetically. I am very lucky to have a 93 in great shape with no history of any of the known issues and although a rack can fail for many reasons mine is fine.

I know how the GTS is supposed to feel. The 928 steering is heavy by design. Just as the 5 speed box is slow at shifting in comparison to the G50 911's. Hell we can argue why the 911 wipers and windows work faster than the 928's? again by design.. Otherwise the 928 would not be the comfortable cruiser it is. I would have it no other way for a street GT nor would I consider it heavy if a 928 was all I drive. it is what makes a 928 a 928. If the steering of the 928 was more like the 911 it would be the same feel that most here complain makes them tired after driving long distances on straight roads. Again nothing wrong here. This also helps stabilize and give you that secure feeling at high speeds and sweeping turns. Unfortunately, for performance driving adding comfort makes it less than ideal. The steering is not as quick or responsive as a 911. This went for my 80 928 as well and the other 928's although limited in number that I have driven. Unfortunately, the 928 does not give the same feedback nor does it respond as a sports car especially with the older manual rack light weight 911's. Again by design. So what is wrong with this? I find it amazing how they melded the performance of a sports car and the comfort of the GT with only the slightest of compromises towards either. That in itself is triumphant achievement especially for the time.

My responses are honest and sincere and are not intended to take away from either side. Although the slinging of crap about the abilities of one over the other needs to end. I lived with this since the 928 was introduced and I saw good friends on either side part over this same BS and usually both sides were wrong.

So I drive my cars regularly enough and many times back to back and what else can I say. I find the differences to be quite apparent between my 2 cars. You can believe me or not however, I see no reason to undermine my comment as being false or that my GTS must be defective. It is not. The 94 turbo 3.6 Turbo was Porsche's flagship model that year and it deserves the title. Nothing against the 928 it is no less fantastic a car.

The Boges sucked as they did in the 911's the 911's would kill them as early as 20k miles. The bilsteins are fine for the sport springs but IMO would be way to under dampened for the eibachs.

So what did Al Holbert have to say? I met the man several times and have a very nice autographed picture he addressed to me. An untimely loss so profound felt by the Porsche community. I had the honor of spending some time chatting in length with him only a few months before he passed. I found it ironic that his Porsche of choice was neither the 911 or 928. Both cars are different and each has its pros and cons but neither is perfect.

As far as spinning dizzy in a 911. I won't deny the 911 especially the turbo has inherently unique handling characteristics however, this works both ways. There are things you can do in a 911 that are not capable in a 928 because of them. Either can be equally dangerous if you get in over your head. Although I would say they are both closer in capabilities than you or some others would have everyone think. In the right hands either is very capable I am sure I can drive them both well and make an accurate assessment of their pros and cons..

Vilhuer

'87+ G28 and G50 are like twins separated at birth. They share many of the same parts. I can't think of any reason why 911 box would be any faster (or slower for that matter) than late 928 box. I have tried both and think G50 isn't any faster.

Richter12x2

Yes, if a Porsche is a Porsche, why spend more money when you already have a perfectly good one?

cobalt

Is it a Getrag transmission? I always referred to it as an M28/57 I guess it is a combination of the long throw of the top mounted clutch pedal vs the short throw of the floor mounted pedal along with the dog leg pattern and longer shift linkage. Personal preference I guess.

I am taking it out today for a gathering and talk about the 928. Although some may take me for the enemy now I will never consider the 928 less of a car. I still enjoy every mile and love the looks the feel and the sounds of the 928. As I had said before it is one of the few Porsche's I find to be nearly perfect out of the box for its intended purpose. 911's IMO require more personalization but are an equally as amazing machine and do what they do best as well as a 928 does what it does best.

No hard feelings I hope. maybe one day we can set up a comparison and we can all vote on it but for now get out and enjoy your rides for what they are fantastic.

Kevin Michael

Anthony you and I have an advantage to this discussion because we both own both. I agree with Vilhuer althouigh I kept my yap shut on that one. The G/50 is a nice box, but a little longer on the throws than my G/28 although I can shift either just as quickly. The G/28 does seem a bit more connected to the asphalt if you know what I mean. You are not an enemy to anyone here and frankly I have enjoyed the debate so far! Here's a bit of a summation not to mention a thinker: "One marries the 928, while the 911 is an occasional roll in the hay"

deutschmick

Anthony, you're not the enemy. I, for one, appreciate your well-reasoned comments.

Like you, I'm fortunate to have nice examples of front and rear-engined Porsches'. Frankly, I've never found a Porsche gearbox that does not require a deliberate hand to shift smoothly.

worf928

Well. Ok then.

cobalt

Guys your right!!!

I went for a nice drive today with my wife in t he GTS and a few million worth of exotic cars. The nice gentleman who organizes these Sunday morning gatherings invited us back to his private estate for lunch. Every other Sunday we gather for a bite and multi-marque appreciation and discuss one car. Today's topic was the 928 I was privileged to speak to the crowd about the beauties of this amazing machine. A woman spoke to me after the talk and said the way I speak about the car it sounds like you love it a lot.

Well I do in a way I think you all understand. That is when it hit me I'M A POLYGAMIST!!! I love both cars equally and what else can I say..

BTW I agree with you on the shifter I spoke incorrectly. In Fonzies words I was Wrooooooonnnnnn...g. Well not actually but it is a preference thing influencing my comment. I am fine with the dog bone shifter just find it easier or more natural to shift the G50 because of the pattern. I have a short shifter in both and the movements are more similar than different, So that is purely preference.

So what can I say I love 2 cars equally at the same time but for entirely different reasons and while I was out there found this 365 GTB4 that had me going. Just another pretty face, I can only imagine.

Vilhuer

GTS manual code is G28/57. Not sure if GTS box is Getrag or not but '85+ 928 gearbox use same style syncro rings as '87+ 911 G50. G50 is in effect Borg Warner syncro 928 gearbox made to fit into 911. Also rear shift coupler is same part. Clutch is obviously different and ancient pedal arrangement in pre 996 911 is definitelly different compared to anything made nowdays. I would call it anything eccept fast.

cobalt

I have seen the trannys listed as G28/57 on most websites however none of the factory info I have shows them as such. The manual Trannys are all coded M and autos A. Just my confusion. The turbo uses the G50/52 which uses a different style syncro ring and straight cut steel racing gears (probably the strongest box used on any Porsche) vs the G50/05 of the C2 which uses standard cut gears made of brass. The C2 is easiest to shift of the 3 IMO. Although I do not have short shift kit in the C2 and the throw is quite long. The c2 is easiest to rev match since it has a light weight flywheel vs the heavy dual mass in the turbo and both the turbo and C2 are easier to get the revs up than the slow revving V8.

My wife had commented yesterday how cranky I have been lately due to a business deal that has gotten me a bit off center so I took her advise and am trying to relax over it but this is no reason to be curt with anyone. If I have I apologize.

I guess we will always differ on opinions regarding floor vs top mounted pedals. I for one prefer the floor mount racing style. I find the 911 far easier to heal toe and easier to work the pedals but that is my preference.

So after agreeing to buy my wife a nice dinner last night since our son is out carting with his cousins I convinced her to do a little study. I blew the dust off the old video cassette recorder and plotted a 3 mile route. We drove it a few times in the 928 to set it down speed and approach. I had her video the 3 miles twice in the GTS and twice in the turbo. She agreed to review it and critique it for me after we were done. (cost of dinner just went up) Unfortunately, it is a very old camera and does not allow me to plug it into anything but the TV but here is what she observed. I wish I could upload it but I don't know how. I might by a new flip recorder and do the study again.

The run was 2 miles of open road the first mile was old pavement the second was newly paved. This lead to a right hand down hill transitioning to cement on ramp that dropped about 2 stories and then climbed 3 stories into a tight left hand turn. After the left hand turn it was straight for about 400 yards and then transitioned into old pavement in need of repair leading to an equally tight right handed turn climbing up about 2 stories and then leveling off. We drove the straight at 85 mph braked dropped down a gear to the left hander and pushed the gas to take the turn at 55 mph fast enough to push the car but not quite at its limits of this turn but a large enough margin of safety since cement surrounded us and acted as a point of reference. Back hard on the gas up to redline and then a tap of the brakes and into the right hander also taking it at 55 mph.

Simple test and these were her comments. She has been doing DE's for a few years now so I trust her assessment. The rest of you take it for what it is worth.

The 911 clearly follows all the surface imperfections in the straights. My hands are constantly moving with the wheel as the car follows the valleys, bumps etc. The 928 is smooth over the same imperfections with far less corrections and less of the horizon moving up an down. On the smooth surface the 911 is almost the same as the 928 requiring less input but does follow ripples up and down more on the new pavement. Up shifting is almost identical. Downshifting from 4th to 3rd was much easier and smoother for me in the turbo than the 928. The entire process appeared to flow better. Not sure why might be the different shift pattern but for some reason dropping it from 4th to 3rd was more difficult than from 3rd to second. I felt no obstructions but this might be my driving but we noticed nothing on the video why it would be. Going into the left hander the 928 required me to turn in considerably earlier and required more rotation of the wheel to complete the turn than the 911. The entire process took less time in the turbo at the same speed and using my left hand at 9 O'clock I needed to pull it down towards 6:30 in the GTS the turbo only required it to be turned to 7:30 and the 964 racks ratio is the slowest for the 911's requiring more turn in to make the same turn than the 993 followed by the earlier 911's manual racks. So I can only assume they would require less input than my 964. Overall the transition took slightly longer and required more input from me in the GTS. I do not believe this has anything to do with the racks condition although I have decided to bring my car in for a complete evaluation after this thread to verify that all is in order.

Entering the right hander and moving to the rough pavement we noticed the same need to turn in earlier and what we noticed was when the back end hit the irregular surface the back end of the GTS skipped over about a tire length at least that is what we both agreed it felt like. The GTS required a little sawing at the wheel to keep it stable through the turn. The turbo on the other hand seemed to roll right over it without the side strep of the GTS requiring less correction.

IMO both cars are sound but I will have the GTS checked out soon just to verify. I plan on having an alignment check and steering rack evaluation.

IMO both cars handled the turns well but differently. I prefer the feel of the 911 for handling but the GTS for overall ride & comfort. Again it is my opinion that in faster turns the turbo would do better for multiple reasons weight being the biggest factor followed by the steering input required. Neither car performed poorly just differently and unless we push it to the limits which I will not do on this stretch of road my wife and I agree on the assessment.

Maybe we need to organize a comparison in the spring. Using more scientific methods and observers from both sides using a location safe in case of any mishaps. I believe you will find it takes more driver skill to drive the turbo at limits, but more driver input to do the same in the 928. I actually find the 928 to be less tiring to drive casually but more tiring to drive at speed than the 911.

So comments feedback?? Does any of this make sense to you guys? Without looking for fault what can we say about the observations noted in relationship to steering and driver input.