IDLE CONTRL VALVE-CHEAP BOSCH
07-21-2009, 02:36 PM
#46
Nordschleife Master
If its labeled Bosch with a Bosch part number, its the Bosch part.
What you can't be sure of is that over the long haul every time you order a Wells part that you will get Bosch and not some equivalent (and marked as such, ie Delco etc.).
I also suspect the Bosch part in a Wells bag has no Bosch warranty, only Wells (which in this case is way better, lifetime?). I also suspect its not in a Bosch box so it can't get into the normal parts stream and be sold as Bosch with Bosch providing the warranty and support etc. As a Wells part it would not qualify for price matching either.
What you can't be sure of is that over the long haul every time you order a Wells part that you will get Bosch and not some equivalent (and marked as such, ie Delco etc.).
I also suspect the Bosch part in a Wells bag has no Bosch warranty, only Wells (which in this case is way better, lifetime?). I also suspect its not in a Bosch box so it can't get into the normal parts stream and be sold as Bosch with Bosch providing the warranty and support etc. As a Wells part it would not qualify for price matching either.
07-21-2009, 03:12 PM
#47
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This has been an interesting thread...but everybody needs to hold on for this twist. I just spoke with a quite knowledgeable person at Wells Manufacturing about the "disputed" ISV. Drum roll please.... They buy the ISV directly from a Porsche dealer in Michigan and then repackage it in a Duralast box for Autozone. So if I do the math correctly, we see that Wells buys it, applies a markup, sells it to Autozone, who also applies a markup and then sells it to me for $139 why would I give the Porsche dealer the time of day, let alone $400? Is the same ISV that much better because I paid $200+ more for it, or because I went to a building that had PORSCHE on the outside?
07-21-2009, 03:24 PM
#48
Nordschleife Master
This has been an interesting thread...but everybody needs to hold on for this twist. I just spoke with a quite knowledgeable person at Wells Manufacturing about the "disputed" ISV. Drum roll please.... They buy the ISV directly from a Porsche dealer in Michigan and then repackage it in a Duralast box for Autozone. So if I do the math correctly, we see that Wells buys it, applies a markup, sells it to Autozone, who also applies a markup and then sells it to me for $139 why would I give the Porsche dealer the time of day, let alone $400? Is the same ISV that much better because I paid $200+ more for it, or because I went to a building that had PORSCHE on the outside?
I figured they bought them from Bosch, the fact that they buy them from Porsche is even more interesting.
07-21-2009, 03:55 PM
#49
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ISV FOR CHEAP
OK everyone here needs to buy one and examined for your next intake job-now i will see someone will hoard the rest of the stocks.........and asking price 299.99
07-21-2009, 04:11 PM
#50
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On one hand it seems just a little weird that PCNA would sell a part to a bulk distributor for about 1/2 of what it charges its dealers.
On the other hand, I know PCNA likes to eff its dealers without lube.
On the gripping hand, the 3-pin ISV for the S3s is available at <$120 from Autozone etc., and I know for a fact that it is The Bosch Part.
07-21-2009, 06:19 PM
#51
Nordschleife Master
There are a few "manufacturers" who rebox surplus stock of OEM brands. They generally buy surplus stock off wholesalers for book value (i.e. depreciated, so less than list) to clear the inventory - this makes the wholesalers accountants happy, and maintains a steady flow of orders for the parts from manufacturers.
Beck Arnley is another example - I've ordered parts (e.g. ignition amplifier, ABS relay, clutch slave cylider) that were all OEM, and in some cases had the Porsche logo ground off.
For example, the ABS relays I bought for less than $10 each were identical to the factory part except for circular grinding pattern where the Porsche triangle and part number would be. Still had the manufacturer markings (SHO, date stamp etc), just no Porsche ones.
The only difference these cheap parts have is usually they've been sitting on a shelf at the original wholesaler for at least a couple of years, until their book value has fallen enough to go through this process.
I know of another Rennlister who bought a Beck Arnley clutch kit - it was all Sachs stuff in Sachs boxes even, and dirt cheap.
Lastly, be aware that these re-boxing companies do this not just with OEM parts, but also with other cheap aftermarket parts too, such as AC Delco. So make sure the specific part you're getting is one of the OEM manufactured ones before ordering.
If you do your homework, these can be a great way of scoring cheap stuff.
Beck Arnley is another example - I've ordered parts (e.g. ignition amplifier, ABS relay, clutch slave cylider) that were all OEM, and in some cases had the Porsche logo ground off.
For example, the ABS relays I bought for less than $10 each were identical to the factory part except for circular grinding pattern where the Porsche triangle and part number would be. Still had the manufacturer markings (SHO, date stamp etc), just no Porsche ones.
The only difference these cheap parts have is usually they've been sitting on a shelf at the original wholesaler for at least a couple of years, until their book value has fallen enough to go through this process.
I know of another Rennlister who bought a Beck Arnley clutch kit - it was all Sachs stuff in Sachs boxes even, and dirt cheap.
Lastly, be aware that these re-boxing companies do this not just with OEM parts, but also with other cheap aftermarket parts too, such as AC Delco. So make sure the specific part you're getting is one of the OEM manufactured ones before ordering.
If you do your homework, these can be a great way of scoring cheap stuff.
07-21-2009, 11:32 PM
#52
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The problem with this discussion about the Autozone ISV and the rancor that it has provoked isn't - IMO - just about the Autozone ISV. It stems from lack of considered thought of the context in which any "unknown" part might be used. But, for example's sake I'll stick with the ISV.
Check out this one:
http://yangyu.en.alibaba.com/product...IAC_Valve.html
I don't know for certain, but I'll bet a quantity could be purchased for less than $50 each and then sold on E-bay for $100 each for a tidy profit. The picture sure looks like both the Porsche and Bosch ISVs I looked at this morning.
Now, onto context. How many of you would:
1) Install this Chinese ISV on your own car?
2) Install this ISV (for labor money) on someone else's car?
3) Do #2, and warranty your labor for a year or two?
4) Do #3, every day?
That's the difference.
If you are taking responsibility for your own car, or only one or two others as a hobby, then the risk of an unknown part is small.
But, if you install dozens of parts every day and have to deal with just the normal and inevitable re-work for warranty or re-work just to keep a customer happy, then any additional risk will accumulate, catch-up and screw you.
If you are putting-in one or two parts you can afford to spend hours of your own time looking-for, or experimenting-with, low-cost OEM or alternative parts to save yourself (or your friends) money. But, if you put in dozens of parts every day, you simply cannot expend the time to think deeply about every part. You have to go with "known" parts. If you try to find a low-cost alternative for parts all the time you'll end up with no time to actually install them.
If you read the above and think that you could do #4 for just about every part on a 928, then you would not be doing it for very long. You'd end up doing nothing but free work or run out of customers. Eventually. Anyone that doesn't get these principles of risk and time management has, I bet, never run a business (any kind of business with lots of customers car-related or not.)
I'm not saying that you shouldn't use the Chinese (or Autozone) ISV or any other alternative part, ISV or otherwise. Just that you shouldn't have an allergic reaction to the folks that have not decided to use it because of the cumulative risk that comes from not having direct experience with it.
Check out this one:
http://yangyu.en.alibaba.com/product...IAC_Valve.html
I don't know for certain, but I'll bet a quantity could be purchased for less than $50 each and then sold on E-bay for $100 each for a tidy profit. The picture sure looks like both the Porsche and Bosch ISVs I looked at this morning.
Now, onto context. How many of you would:
1) Install this Chinese ISV on your own car?
2) Install this ISV (for labor money) on someone else's car?
3) Do #2, and warranty your labor for a year or two?
4) Do #3, every day?
That's the difference.
If you are taking responsibility for your own car, or only one or two others as a hobby, then the risk of an unknown part is small.
But, if you install dozens of parts every day and have to deal with just the normal and inevitable re-work for warranty or re-work just to keep a customer happy, then any additional risk will accumulate, catch-up and screw you.
If you are putting-in one or two parts you can afford to spend hours of your own time looking-for, or experimenting-with, low-cost OEM or alternative parts to save yourself (or your friends) money. But, if you put in dozens of parts every day, you simply cannot expend the time to think deeply about every part. You have to go with "known" parts. If you try to find a low-cost alternative for parts all the time you'll end up with no time to actually install them.
If you read the above and think that you could do #4 for just about every part on a 928, then you would not be doing it for very long. You'd end up doing nothing but free work or run out of customers. Eventually. Anyone that doesn't get these principles of risk and time management has, I bet, never run a business (any kind of business with lots of customers car-related or not.)
I'm not saying that you shouldn't use the Chinese (or Autozone) ISV or any other alternative part, ISV or otherwise. Just that you shouldn't have an allergic reaction to the folks that have not decided to use it because of the cumulative risk that comes from not having direct experience with it.
07-22-2009, 01:09 AM
#53
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When I look over the Bosch parts I'm buying from certified Porsche and other outlets...I'm finding that the parts are made in many countries over the world. Low bid, obviously. I'm banking on Bosch to monitor quality control. At some point, if not already, I totally expect Bosch to start boxing up and shipping parts they have made for them in China.
Yesterday I installed a new Porsche fan that was stamped "Industria Brasilera." It was sold as Porsche but you get the idea.
I don't mind if a dealer gives me a choice...the Porsche part for $$$$ or the clone for $$..but I don't like paying $$$ for a $ clone.
In the end, China may be the salvation of our cars as they age and parts become NLA through regular channels. They make a lot of parts for a lot of cars nowdays. Between them, Brazil and a few places you can buy about any Model A Ford part...and many other cars. Even a replacement mirror for my relatively new Camry came from China.
What's irritating is that some companies (like a major outdoor clothing company that kinda rymes with North) used to take great pride in selling "American" ...then nothing made in sweat shops...and now much of what they (and other companies) sell is Fabrique au Chine. I find it irritating in a way because an American made parka that used to sell for $400, can now be had for half that (that's good I guess)..and their cost for product is just a fraction of what it used to be....so their profits are up, but quality is questionable (sometimes).....but, that said, that's probably the only way the company will survive the competition. I hope bird flu doesn't some in goose down.
I have a friend who founded and owns a large rafting supplies company. He started by reselling US brands, then having US companies make rafts with his branding on them with a few design changes...then went to Japan for better quality, cheaper, then had rafts custom made in Mexico for him, and...I dunno who makes them for him today. But one thing that he did was travel to the actual factories in the countries who made his stuff, oversaw quality and manufacturing methods until they were acceptable, rejected product that wasn't and is still able to claim a quality product for less money.
It's those who buy parts for an obscenely low price and resell them for even more obscene markups...while misrepresing their origin that still get me. Maybe those Chinese 928 fuel pumps are working OK but I'm not using them until I have to.
Who knows, maybe the Chinese will come up with a killer 928 waterpump that's built like a tank? Someone should.
H2
Yesterday I installed a new Porsche fan that was stamped "Industria Brasilera." It was sold as Porsche but you get the idea.
I don't mind if a dealer gives me a choice...the Porsche part for $$$$ or the clone for $$..but I don't like paying $$$ for a $ clone.
In the end, China may be the salvation of our cars as they age and parts become NLA through regular channels. They make a lot of parts for a lot of cars nowdays. Between them, Brazil and a few places you can buy about any Model A Ford part...and many other cars. Even a replacement mirror for my relatively new Camry came from China.
What's irritating is that some companies (like a major outdoor clothing company that kinda rymes with North) used to take great pride in selling "American" ...then nothing made in sweat shops...and now much of what they (and other companies) sell is Fabrique au Chine. I find it irritating in a way because an American made parka that used to sell for $400, can now be had for half that (that's good I guess)..and their cost for product is just a fraction of what it used to be....so their profits are up, but quality is questionable (sometimes).....but, that said, that's probably the only way the company will survive the competition. I hope bird flu doesn't some in goose down.
I have a friend who founded and owns a large rafting supplies company. He started by reselling US brands, then having US companies make rafts with his branding on them with a few design changes...then went to Japan for better quality, cheaper, then had rafts custom made in Mexico for him, and...I dunno who makes them for him today. But one thing that he did was travel to the actual factories in the countries who made his stuff, oversaw quality and manufacturing methods until they were acceptable, rejected product that wasn't and is still able to claim a quality product for less money.
It's those who buy parts for an obscenely low price and resell them for even more obscene markups...while misrepresing their origin that still get me. Maybe those Chinese 928 fuel pumps are working OK but I'm not using them until I have to.
Who knows, maybe the Chinese will come up with a killer 928 waterpump that's built like a tank? Someone should.
H2
07-22-2009, 01:20 AM
#54
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Dave--
I consider that same stuff whenever I do a repair on my own car. Time is not a free commodity, and sometimes 'spare' time isn't really spare at all. Things futz up enough on their own, and those little episodes NEVER happen at a convenient time or place. What's the payoff? Hmmmm. I was talking with one of the guests at Rob's on Sunday. He mentioned that he has poured a pile of money into his car and he just wishes it would be reliable. In contrast, my car has been VERY reliable, at least so far. I've probably poured a pile of money into the car over the years, but nowhere close to a big pile on fixes. Almost all of the dollars have been for maintenance pieces, PM items, WYAIT stuff in parallel with mantenance. Are motor mounts maintenance? Sure. AC overhaul and convert to 134? No. But tires, cam cover gaskets, shocks and suspension pieces, coolant hoses, fuel hoses, radiators and coolant services are all in the maintenance column. All get 'worked on' before they show signs of needing work. That same philosphy all the way through ownership pays huge dividends in reliability.
So, will I get the ISV from Autozone? Probably, even if it's just to cpmare with what's in there now. If it isn't the same, the old one wil be serviced and reinstalled, simple as that. If it turns out to be the same, it's a win. Even though the ISV is not a fatal issue on failure, it's darn close in an automatic car. Why risk it for a few minutes of cleaning?
I'll post results one way or the other.
I consider that same stuff whenever I do a repair on my own car. Time is not a free commodity, and sometimes 'spare' time isn't really spare at all. Things futz up enough on their own, and those little episodes NEVER happen at a convenient time or place. What's the payoff? Hmmmm. I was talking with one of the guests at Rob's on Sunday. He mentioned that he has poured a pile of money into his car and he just wishes it would be reliable. In contrast, my car has been VERY reliable, at least so far. I've probably poured a pile of money into the car over the years, but nowhere close to a big pile on fixes. Almost all of the dollars have been for maintenance pieces, PM items, WYAIT stuff in parallel with mantenance. Are motor mounts maintenance? Sure. AC overhaul and convert to 134? No. But tires, cam cover gaskets, shocks and suspension pieces, coolant hoses, fuel hoses, radiators and coolant services are all in the maintenance column. All get 'worked on' before they show signs of needing work. That same philosphy all the way through ownership pays huge dividends in reliability.
So, will I get the ISV from Autozone? Probably, even if it's just to cpmare with what's in there now. If it isn't the same, the old one wil be serviced and reinstalled, simple as that. If it turns out to be the same, it's a win. Even though the ISV is not a fatal issue on failure, it's darn close in an automatic car. Why risk it for a few minutes of cleaning?
I'll post results one way or the other.
07-22-2009, 01:22 AM
#55
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Dave, some of us pros have just fixed to many cars by replacing very new "name your discount auto part" to even consider using any hard parts from them.
The real problem is that what were once ok parts places like NAPA have been forced to try to match the price of the cheap parts houses and it has soured many guys like myself on all aftermarket parts.
I put 4 fuel pumps in my best buddies (Jack Mitchell) Ford truck in a year and a half.
The parts guy says "Well we have a lifetime warranty, no problem we will replace the part", they will not however pay the almost 600 I have spent on towing or pay me for the labor to replace 4 pumps.
I put a Ford pump on it over a year ago and it is still going.
I have no prof of this, but I also think that in any production run some parts are going to be better than others.
and they are graded as such, that is why some parts are sold in bulk with no warranty.
I have nothing to back that up other than my work with Valvoline and the private label oil.
Yes it was Valvoline oil, made for NAPA, but no way in the world was it as good as the Valvoline branded oil.
For the guy that works on 2-3 cars a year it may be worth his time to use aftermarket parts.
The real problem is that what were once ok parts places like NAPA have been forced to try to match the price of the cheap parts houses and it has soured many guys like myself on all aftermarket parts.
I put 4 fuel pumps in my best buddies (Jack Mitchell) Ford truck in a year and a half.
The parts guy says "Well we have a lifetime warranty, no problem we will replace the part", they will not however pay the almost 600 I have spent on towing or pay me for the labor to replace 4 pumps.
I put a Ford pump on it over a year ago and it is still going.
I have no prof of this, but I also think that in any production run some parts are going to be better than others.
and they are graded as such, that is why some parts are sold in bulk with no warranty.
I have nothing to back that up other than my work with Valvoline and the private label oil.
Yes it was Valvoline oil, made for NAPA, but no way in the world was it as good as the Valvoline branded oil.
For the guy that works on 2-3 cars a year it may be worth his time to use aftermarket parts.
07-22-2009, 01:38 AM
#56
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ISV FOR CHEAP
As stated earlier mine came in a WELLS bag-with a brand new BOSCH isv for the car-not a clone or chinese made.Its new and not remanufacture and came with full warrany.So everyone buy it and be the judge for yourself when they are all gone you will pay the full asking vendors price -yes they do go bad the connector to the darn thing is made of plastic and it sits in the bottom of the intake-----heat etc..try to clean and old one and its still old 20 plus years.New is new......chinese made my rear the Bosch one is on my car and its perfect.
07-22-2009, 03:55 AM
#57
Nordschleife Master
This dead horse seems well beaten, but the topic of alternate cheaper parts isn't going away anytime soon.
Mechanics can't afford to use them.
DIYer's can't afford not to use them.
Mechanics can't afford to use them.
DIYer's can't afford not to use them.
07-22-2009, 04:34 AM
#58
Former Vendor
We also can't afford to clean it...even if the customer tells us that it is ok....the customer will never "remember" this discussion...they never do.
The reality of what we do is this....if we touch it, we own it. It can be 30 fricking years old, but if we touch it and it fails a month later, we screwed it up. ****...I've had people come back and blame me for the nail in their tire a month later...
Even if the customer drags it in and wants us to install it....if it fails...it must have been something we did. We then "own" that too...even though we didn't sell the part originally.
Look back at the steering rack leak thread. A guy trying to blame the alignment shop for his rack leaking.....just "forgot" the little detail about installing a new reserviour and having the system open, the week before. Must have been the alignment shop's fault!
Society has gotten too regulated and controlled. Clearly, some people need their *** kicked...and have need it kicked for a great many years. But people that need their *** kicked, pass laws against *** kicking. Others, that need their asses kicked, enforce the laws. Suddenly, no one kicks *** any more and a great number of people that need their *** kicked miss out on the positive effects of a good *** kicking.
Yes, Dr. Bob, you can use that quote.
07-22-2009, 05:25 AM
#59
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You are so right, Greg! Being an automotive technican or mechanic has become a big risk - particularly when you work on older cars. I have seen it myself many times, where people with no knowledge about cars blamed things on the mechanic that he could not possibly have caused
But when you install a part, and it fails, it is certainly expected that you replace it without any further labor charges. That is an incentive for you to only use the best parts, and for customers not to bring their own (because you should have a disclaimer that they sign when bringing their own parts).
But when you install a part, and it fails, it is certainly expected that you replace it without any further labor charges. That is an incentive for you to only use the best parts, and for customers not to bring their own (because you should have a disclaimer that they sign when bringing their own parts).
Clearly, some people need their *** kicked...and have need it kicked for a great many years. But people that need their *** kicked, pass laws against *** kicking. Others, that need their asses kicked, enforce the laws. Suddenly, no one kicks *** any more and a great number of people that need their *** kicked miss out on the positive effects of a good *** kicking.
07-22-2009, 03:16 PM
#60
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But I will fervently agree with Mike's statement:
So for now, this thread is: