Need help with another smog test issue
05-08-2009, 07:40 PM
#16
Chronic Tool Dropper
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Rob--
I'll take the BG stuff from you. Smog is due in Sept for me. May make an adapter to force-feed the fuel rails, along with a fogger for the brake booster venturi.
Get the intake valves and chambers flushed clean before or after intake refresh and new injectors? Opinions?
I'll take the BG stuff from you. Smog is due in Sept for me. May make an adapter to force-feed the fuel rails, along with a fogger for the brake booster venturi.
Get the intake valves and chambers flushed clean before or after intake refresh and new injectors? Opinions?
05-08-2009, 07:48 PM
#17
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Bob-
It's all yours. FWIW, here are pics of the instructions for BG's 9210 that might help with thinking about how to DIY.
It's all yours. FWIW, here are pics of the instructions for BG's 9210 that might help with thinking about how to DIY.
05-08-2009, 07:49 PM
#18
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Rob--
I'll take the BG stuff from you. Smog is due in Sept for me. May make an adapter to force-feed the fuel rails, along with a fogger for the brake booster venturi.
Get the intake valves and chambers flushed clean before or after intake refresh and new injectors? Opinions?
I'll take the BG stuff from you. Smog is due in Sept for me. May make an adapter to force-feed the fuel rails, along with a fogger for the brake booster venturi.
Get the intake valves and chambers flushed clean before or after intake refresh and new injectors? Opinions?
Bob, do you have a flywheel lock and kempf tool you can loan out for a few days?
After this job i am going to buy both, but for now i need to borrow from someone. Im planning on doing teardown tomorrow and reassembly on Monday or Tuesday
05-08-2009, 07:50 PM
#19
Nordschleife Master
Filthy intake ports bugged me doing my intake job.
05-27-2009, 03:15 PM
#20
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
UPDATE:
I finished the timing belt job (Thanks Roger and Rob!) and replaced the plugs.
I had asked the guy to run the test in 2nd gear but he wouldnt then he almost told me he wouldnt test the car period because of a transmission leak. Anyway it eventually got tested but i will no longer be going to that facility after that drama
Failed again although just barely, but just barely passing some things too.
Areas of concern are
15 mph test
HC (PPM) max is 110 and mine passed at 108
NO (PPM) max 772 and mine passed at 721
25 mph test
HC (PPM) max is 85 mine measured 35 so that sounds fine
NO (PPM) max is 711 and I failed with 780
So the only failing measure is the 25 mph NO, but i am just wondering if another test could cause the other numbers to then fail just to testing conditions and such.
But i have to imagine that once i clean up the NOx that the other items will also come in line too.
So what do I do? The idea mentioned of the fuel cleaner and engine deposit cleaning sounds good. Apparently Luan did this with his S4 and his car passed (I need to check that thread out) I am thinking thats the next step, but I am not familiar on this procedure at all!
Any other suggestions?
I finished the timing belt job (Thanks Roger and Rob!) and replaced the plugs.
I had asked the guy to run the test in 2nd gear but he wouldnt then he almost told me he wouldnt test the car period because of a transmission leak. Anyway it eventually got tested but i will no longer be going to that facility after that drama
Failed again although just barely, but just barely passing some things too.
Areas of concern are
15 mph test
HC (PPM) max is 110 and mine passed at 108
NO (PPM) max 772 and mine passed at 721
25 mph test
HC (PPM) max is 85 mine measured 35 so that sounds fine
NO (PPM) max is 711 and I failed with 780
So the only failing measure is the 25 mph NO, but i am just wondering if another test could cause the other numbers to then fail just to testing conditions and such.
But i have to imagine that once i clean up the NOx that the other items will also come in line too.
So what do I do? The idea mentioned of the fuel cleaner and engine deposit cleaning sounds good. Apparently Luan did this with his S4 and his car passed (I need to check that thread out) I am thinking thats the next step, but I am not familiar on this procedure at all!
Any other suggestions?
05-27-2009, 04:06 PM
#21
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Ive read up on the BG 3 can system and like the idea. This car with 190K miles surely has a bunch of carbon on the piston tops. I want to give this system a try, I am not sure what else to look into honestly?
Dr. Bob, isnt there some sort of tool i would need to get to do this system? It seems fairly easy, one can goes into the fuel tank, one gets attached and then injected into the fuel runners and the car is run on that second can till it runs out of fuel, and a third can is i guess injected (does it foam up i suppose?) into the intake manifold and then into the combustion chambers and would i guess sit in the CC and try and dissolve carbon buildup?
Is this pretty much how this system works?
EDIT: I called a shop and talked to a guy and got a quote for $89 for this BG products service. At that price i wouldnt bother trying to do it myself really. Thats what i would spend on the chemicals and the sprayer alone
Dr. Bob, isnt there some sort of tool i would need to get to do this system? It seems fairly easy, one can goes into the fuel tank, one gets attached and then injected into the fuel runners and the car is run on that second can till it runs out of fuel, and a third can is i guess injected (does it foam up i suppose?) into the intake manifold and then into the combustion chambers and would i guess sit in the CC and try and dissolve carbon buildup?
Is this pretty much how this system works?
EDIT: I called a shop and talked to a guy and got a quote for $89 for this BG products service. At that price i wouldnt bother trying to do it myself really. Thats what i would spend on the chemicals and the sprayer alone
Last edited by RyanPerrella; 05-27-2009 at 04:41 PM.
05-27-2009, 04:16 PM
#22
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Initial test
Retest after changing timing belt (shouldnt effect anything) and copper plugs and run for about 20-30 minutes.
NOx went down a fair bit with just changing plugs out
NOx went down a fair bit with just changing plugs out
05-27-2009, 05:53 PM
#23
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Hey Ryan--
I just noticed this thread again with your update. My old laptop died on the last trip home from the east coast 10 days ago (better on the way home than on the way to a client's facility...) so my rennbrowsing was via iPhone only. New laptop on line now for almost a week and I'm still catching up. Sorry I wasn't able to respond with the tools and stuff you needed for your TB project.
Find another test facility and tell them to do the test with the gearbox in second. You can force the gear selection in advance by jumpering the kickdown switch and overtightening the TV cable to the trans. Just don't press hard on the pedal with the cable too short. The difference between second and fourth is all you'll need to get through the 25MPH test. The 'dyno' they use doesn't put enough load on the car to keep it in the gears it would typically select on its own on the road. You have to help it a little. No, it's not really cheating, your honor...
I saw an interesting device, a soda blaster, on sale at H-F. That uses a pressurized cannister with a cap, a dip tube, pressure regulator and air fittings, and is intended to be filled with soda ash or similar soft abrasives for light media blasting. I'll need to fab a hose to connect the outlet to the test port on the end of the fuel rail. Then pull the FP fuse, pull and cap the vacuum connections to the FPR and dampers, set the bottle pressure to less than 50# to the FPR and dampers stay closed. With that can filled with the BG flush, it should flow through the fuel rails and not into the tank, and have enough pressure to run the engine at idle and clean everything.
I'll need to look a little harder at getting a fogging nozzle in between the MAF and the throttle, but that same pressurized can should be good for that duty too. I'm not sure if the vacuum/flow at the brake booster hose is well enough distributed in the inlet plenum. Looks like the driver's side gets the bulk of that flow.
I'll post a new thread when I get it all thunked out and rigged. Once refined, looks like an excuse for another little DIY clinic at dr bob's house.
I just noticed this thread again with your update. My old laptop died on the last trip home from the east coast 10 days ago (better on the way home than on the way to a client's facility...) so my rennbrowsing was via iPhone only. New laptop on line now for almost a week and I'm still catching up. Sorry I wasn't able to respond with the tools and stuff you needed for your TB project.
Find another test facility and tell them to do the test with the gearbox in second. You can force the gear selection in advance by jumpering the kickdown switch and overtightening the TV cable to the trans. Just don't press hard on the pedal with the cable too short. The difference between second and fourth is all you'll need to get through the 25MPH test. The 'dyno' they use doesn't put enough load on the car to keep it in the gears it would typically select on its own on the road. You have to help it a little. No, it's not really cheating, your honor...
I saw an interesting device, a soda blaster, on sale at H-F. That uses a pressurized cannister with a cap, a dip tube, pressure regulator and air fittings, and is intended to be filled with soda ash or similar soft abrasives for light media blasting. I'll need to fab a hose to connect the outlet to the test port on the end of the fuel rail. Then pull the FP fuse, pull and cap the vacuum connections to the FPR and dampers, set the bottle pressure to less than 50# to the FPR and dampers stay closed. With that can filled with the BG flush, it should flow through the fuel rails and not into the tank, and have enough pressure to run the engine at idle and clean everything.
I'll need to look a little harder at getting a fogging nozzle in between the MAF and the throttle, but that same pressurized can should be good for that duty too. I'm not sure if the vacuum/flow at the brake booster hose is well enough distributed in the inlet plenum. Looks like the driver's side gets the bulk of that flow.
I'll post a new thread when I get it all thunked out and rigged. Once refined, looks like an excuse for another little DIY clinic at dr bob's house.
05-27-2009, 06:54 PM
#24
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Hey Ryan--
I just noticed this thread again with your update. My old laptop died on the last trip home from the east coast 10 days ago (better on the way home than on the way to a client's facility...) so my rennbrowsing was via iPhone only. New laptop on line now for almost a week and I'm still catching up. Sorry I wasn't able to respond with the tools and stuff you needed for your TB project.
Find another test facility and tell them to do the test with the gearbox in second. You can force the gear selection in advance by jumpering the kickdown switch and overtightening the TV cable to the trans. Just don't press hard on the pedal with the cable too short. The difference between second and fourth is all you'll need to get through the 25MPH test. The 'dyno' they use doesn't put enough load on the car to keep it in the gears it would typically select on its own on the road. You have to help it a little. No, it's not really cheating, your honor...
I saw an interesting device, a soda blaster, on sale at H-F. That uses a pressurized cannister with a cap, a dip tube, pressure regulator and air fittings, and is intended to be filled with soda ash or similar soft abrasives for light media blasting. I'll need to fab a hose to connect the outlet to the test port on the end of the fuel rail. Then pull the FP fuse, pull and cap the vacuum connections to the FPR and dampers, set the bottle pressure to less than 50# to the FPR and dampers stay closed. With that can filled with the BG flush, it should flow through the fuel rails and not into the tank, and have enough pressure to run the engine at idle and clean everything.
I'll need to look a little harder at getting a fogging nozzle in between the MAF and the throttle, but that same pressurized can should be good for that duty too. I'm not sure if the vacuum/flow at the brake booster hose is well enough distributed in the inlet plenum. Looks like the driver's side gets the bulk of that flow.
I'll post a new thread when I get it all thunked out and rigged. Once refined, looks like an excuse for another little DIY clinic at dr bob's house.
I just noticed this thread again with your update. My old laptop died on the last trip home from the east coast 10 days ago (better on the way home than on the way to a client's facility...) so my rennbrowsing was via iPhone only. New laptop on line now for almost a week and I'm still catching up. Sorry I wasn't able to respond with the tools and stuff you needed for your TB project.
Find another test facility and tell them to do the test with the gearbox in second. You can force the gear selection in advance by jumpering the kickdown switch and overtightening the TV cable to the trans. Just don't press hard on the pedal with the cable too short. The difference between second and fourth is all you'll need to get through the 25MPH test. The 'dyno' they use doesn't put enough load on the car to keep it in the gears it would typically select on its own on the road. You have to help it a little. No, it's not really cheating, your honor...
I saw an interesting device, a soda blaster, on sale at H-F. That uses a pressurized cannister with a cap, a dip tube, pressure regulator and air fittings, and is intended to be filled with soda ash or similar soft abrasives for light media blasting. I'll need to fab a hose to connect the outlet to the test port on the end of the fuel rail. Then pull the FP fuse, pull and cap the vacuum connections to the FPR and dampers, set the bottle pressure to less than 50# to the FPR and dampers stay closed. With that can filled with the BG flush, it should flow through the fuel rails and not into the tank, and have enough pressure to run the engine at idle and clean everything.
I'll need to look a little harder at getting a fogging nozzle in between the MAF and the throttle, but that same pressurized can should be good for that duty too. I'm not sure if the vacuum/flow at the brake booster hose is well enough distributed in the inlet plenum. Looks like the driver's side gets the bulk of that flow.
I'll post a new thread when I get it all thunked out and rigged. Once refined, looks like an excuse for another little DIY clinic at dr bob's house.
From what ive read on the process in other threads, it was also suggested that you look for a place OTHER then that vacuum line as like you said it wouldnt give you the coverage your after.
The place i called for $90 is so cheap i would check the shop out. Im now familiar with the tools used, the chemicals and the process that i could take a look at the shop and if its what im expecting just having them do it this time. I got the name off the BG website FWIW
05-27-2009, 07:00 PM
#25
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
From what i read in the thread by Luan, his NOX levels went from close to 2000 to passing on this process alone, im real skeptical but i sure as hell dont think it would hurt and it cant think of anything else obvious to do otherwise.
I guess if the cleaning doesnt get me there..... I'll then start worrying about what else it COULD be. Till then i guess im going to focus on that but I suppose im asking.... is that what you would do?
I guess if the cleaning doesnt get me there..... I'll then start worrying about what else it COULD be. Till then i guess im going to focus on that but I suppose im asking.... is that what you would do?
05-27-2009, 07:54 PM
#26
Race Director
Ryan
Since you are having issues with both HC and NOx....my guess is the cats are gone.....since its its a running issue its usually one or the other....but when its both....it tends to be cats
Since you are having issues with both HC and NOx....my guess is the cats are gone.....since its its a running issue its usually one or the other....but when its both....it tends to be cats
05-27-2009, 08:07 PM
#27
Archive Gatekeeper
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Hopefully it isn't the cats, since they're mine, off of the 90 GT. I passed with them in 5/08:
15 mph: HC: 68, CO 0.18%, NO 539 PPM PASS
25 mph: HC: 27, CO 0.06%, NO 261 PPM PASS
15 mph: HC: 68, CO 0.18%, NO 539 PPM PASS
25 mph: HC: 27, CO 0.06%, NO 261 PPM PASS
05-27-2009, 08:41 PM
#28
Former Sponsor
Ryan:
I keep missing your CO numbers...without those, it is tough to figure out your other data points.
05-27-2009, 08:43 PM
#29
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Dont think its cats Brian
with 190K miles, i have to imagine there is a ton of caked on carbon in the CC. I am actually really curious by the whole process too and am interested in first hand results.
with 190K miles, i have to imagine there is a ton of caked on carbon in the CC. I am actually really curious by the whole process too and am interested in first hand results.
05-27-2009, 10:04 PM
#30
Chronic Tool Dropper
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Ryan--
When/where are you having the cleaning done? If it's close/convenient I'd like to visit some while they do the work on it. You are right that the cost is too good for a one-shot to fuss with making a whole DIY setup. That has never stopped us before, but has slowed us down just a tad. I'm due for smog this fall, and barely squeek by on NOx. If the BG is the answer-in-a-can, I'm all for it.
When/where are you having the cleaning done? If it's close/convenient I'd like to visit some while they do the work on it. You are right that the cost is too good for a one-shot to fuss with making a whole DIY setup. That has never stopped us before, but has slowed us down just a tad. I'm due for smog this fall, and barely squeek by on NOx. If the BG is the answer-in-a-can, I'm all for it.