Will GTS prices hit a new high?
02-16-2009, 11:49 AM
#91
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Dang, I go away for the weekend and I miss the best part of my own thread.
Worf. I agree with what you say. The 928 differs from most every Porsche I follow in the areas you stated. IMO these cars are far undervalued and for the life of me can't figure why.
I use the 94 turbo as a reference for several reasons:
The 94 turbo is in line with the GTS, similar MSRP, power and production numbers. 406 US GTS's vs 411 stock 94 turbos. Both are expensive to own and both IMO are the pinnacle of Porsche at its best and worst. The company produced an outstanding product unfortunately almost crippling it because costs were too high while sales were at an all time low.
Using just these 2 models as a comparison, I see ultra low mileage cars from both models commanding MSRP or close to it. Once mileage of a GTS starts to rise value drops quickly. A 40k mile turbo (without issues) will easily bring between $65k & $75k depending on options, color, records etc. Some depending on color and condition have brought far more. As where the GTS is well below that into the $35k-$45k. As the mileage goes up to say 60k miles the turbo is still in the $50-$59k range the GTS now falls to $29k-$39k and once above that the turbo will drop to $45k no less (unless it has serious issues) the GTS can be into the mid $20's if it sells at all. Now granted the turbo had a $10k higher MSRP but there is a distinct bottom to the market as where I don't see that with the GTS. Both when up there in mileage start requiring expensive maintenance. There have been some GTS's salvaged and sold for parts on Ebay(what a shame). The turbo market would not allow this. If the car can be restored or rebuilt it is. I have seen seriously damaged salvage title turbos sell for $30+k, if this same car were a GTS it would be a parts car and sell for $15k tops.
Why a perfectly clean car like my GTS. A rare one off color combo, 5 speed with all records. An impeccably reliable all original car in concours condition can only bring $36k or less is beyond me. This is a lot of car for the $$ and far better and faster than a lot of high priced luxury Japanese imports. Gets tons of attention and a pleasure to drive. needs nothing yet if this were a comparable turbo it would sell for 40% more.
IMO most of these cars are worth at least 30-35% more than they are selling for. I hope someday the market will show their real value.
I don't think he is in touch with any of these markets. He has started to use more realistic numbers for some models but if his pricing was close to accurate I would have a fleet of Porsche's many different models that I would love to own but they aren't out there for the pricing he lists. I find anything purchased in the price range he states is usually a car I wouldn't want to waste my time on. Anything worth buying usually sells for far more than what he considers excellent condition. I guess his idea of excellent condition differs from what I consider to be excellent by a long margin.
Worf. I agree with what you say. The 928 differs from most every Porsche I follow in the areas you stated. IMO these cars are far undervalued and for the life of me can't figure why.
I use the 94 turbo as a reference for several reasons:
The 94 turbo is in line with the GTS, similar MSRP, power and production numbers. 406 US GTS's vs 411 stock 94 turbos. Both are expensive to own and both IMO are the pinnacle of Porsche at its best and worst. The company produced an outstanding product unfortunately almost crippling it because costs were too high while sales were at an all time low.
Using just these 2 models as a comparison, I see ultra low mileage cars from both models commanding MSRP or close to it. Once mileage of a GTS starts to rise value drops quickly. A 40k mile turbo (without issues) will easily bring between $65k & $75k depending on options, color, records etc. Some depending on color and condition have brought far more. As where the GTS is well below that into the $35k-$45k. As the mileage goes up to say 60k miles the turbo is still in the $50-$59k range the GTS now falls to $29k-$39k and once above that the turbo will drop to $45k no less (unless it has serious issues) the GTS can be into the mid $20's if it sells at all. Now granted the turbo had a $10k higher MSRP but there is a distinct bottom to the market as where I don't see that with the GTS. Both when up there in mileage start requiring expensive maintenance. There have been some GTS's salvaged and sold for parts on Ebay(what a shame). The turbo market would not allow this. If the car can be restored or rebuilt it is. I have seen seriously damaged salvage title turbos sell for $30+k, if this same car were a GTS it would be a parts car and sell for $15k tops.
Why a perfectly clean car like my GTS. A rare one off color combo, 5 speed with all records. An impeccably reliable all original car in concours condition can only bring $36k or less is beyond me. This is a lot of car for the $$ and far better and faster than a lot of high priced luxury Japanese imports. Gets tons of attention and a pleasure to drive. needs nothing yet if this were a comparable turbo it would sell for 40% more.
IMO most of these cars are worth at least 30-35% more than they are selling for. I hope someday the market will show their real value.
I don't think he is in touch with any of these markets. He has started to use more realistic numbers for some models but if his pricing was close to accurate I would have a fleet of Porsche's many different models that I would love to own but they aren't out there for the pricing he lists. I find anything purchased in the price range he states is usually a car I wouldn't want to waste my time on. Anything worth buying usually sells for far more than what he considers excellent condition. I guess his idea of excellent condition differs from what I consider to be excellent by a long margin.
02-16-2009, 12:08 PM
#92
Rennlist Member
Cobalt,
The 928 goes for less money because it is just not as popular, simple as that. A fine example is to look at which of your cars you choose to use as your Avatar.
The 928 goes for less money because it is just not as popular, simple as that. A fine example is to look at which of your cars you choose to use as your Avatar.
02-16-2009, 01:24 PM
#93
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Not sure whether popularity has anything to do with it. I find that what is happening with the 928 is similar to the 914's when they weren't worth anything. For some reason when people start thinking as the line having future value the attitudes change. IMO there are a number of pristine 928's I would take over a comparable condition 914. I owned 3 914's and they are a hoot to drive the 6 is the only one IMO worth owning. The others just lack power period. So why is it the 914 market has overcome what the 928 cannot?
Maybe the 928 is due?
02-16-2009, 01:40 PM
#94
Nordschleife Master
02-16-2009, 01:50 PM
#95
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Dang, I go away for the weekend and I miss the best part of my own thread.
Worf. I agree with what you say. The 928 differs from most every Porsche I follow in the areas you stated. IMO these cars are far undervalued and for the life of me can't figure why.
I use the 94 turbo as a reference for several reasons:
The 94 turbo is in line with the GTS, similar MSRP, power and production numbers. 406 US GTS's vs 411 stock 94 turbos. Both are expensive to own and both IMO are the pinnacle of Porsche at its best and worst. The company produced an outstanding product unfortunately almost crippling it because costs were too high while sales were at an all time low.
Using just these 2 models as a comparison, I see ultra low mileage cars from both models commanding MSRP or close to it. Once mileage of a GTS starts to rise value drops quickly. A 40k mile turbo (without issues) will easily bring between $65k & $75k depending on options, color, records etc. Some depending on color and condition have brought far more. As where the GTS is well below that into the $35k-$45k. As the mileage goes up to say 60k miles the turbo is still in the $50-$59k range the GTS now falls to $29k-$39k and once above that the turbo will drop to $45k no less (unless it has serious issues) the GTS can be into the mid $20's if it sells at all. Now granted the turbo had a $10k higher MSRP but there is a distinct bottom to the market as where I don't see that with the GTS. Both when up there in mileage start requiring expensive maintenance. There have been some GTS's salvaged and sold for parts on Ebay(what a shame). The turbo market would not allow this. If the car can be restored or rebuilt it is. I have seen seriously damaged salvage title turbos sell for $30+k, if this same car were a GTS it would be a parts car and sell for $15k tops.
Why a perfectly clean car like my GTS. A rare one off color combo, 5 speed with all records. An impeccably reliable all original car in concours condition can only bring $36k or less is beyond me. This is a lot of car for the $$ and far better and faster than a lot of high priced luxury Japanese imports. Gets tons of attention and a pleasure to drive. needs nothing yet if this were a comparable turbo it would sell for 40% more.
IMO most of these cars are worth at least 30-35% more than they are selling for. I hope someday the market will show their real value.
I don't think he is in touch with any of these markets. He has started to use more realistic numbers for some models but if his pricing was close to accurate I would have a fleet of Porsche's many different models that I would love to own but they aren't out there for the pricing he lists. I find anything purchased in the price range he states is usually a car I wouldn't want to waste my time on. Anything worth buying usually sells for far more than what he considers excellent condition. I guess his idea of excellent condition differs from what I consider to be excellent by a long margin.
Worf. I agree with what you say. The 928 differs from most every Porsche I follow in the areas you stated. IMO these cars are far undervalued and for the life of me can't figure why.
I use the 94 turbo as a reference for several reasons:
The 94 turbo is in line with the GTS, similar MSRP, power and production numbers. 406 US GTS's vs 411 stock 94 turbos. Both are expensive to own and both IMO are the pinnacle of Porsche at its best and worst. The company produced an outstanding product unfortunately almost crippling it because costs were too high while sales were at an all time low.
Using just these 2 models as a comparison, I see ultra low mileage cars from both models commanding MSRP or close to it. Once mileage of a GTS starts to rise value drops quickly. A 40k mile turbo (without issues) will easily bring between $65k & $75k depending on options, color, records etc. Some depending on color and condition have brought far more. As where the GTS is well below that into the $35k-$45k. As the mileage goes up to say 60k miles the turbo is still in the $50-$59k range the GTS now falls to $29k-$39k and once above that the turbo will drop to $45k no less (unless it has serious issues) the GTS can be into the mid $20's if it sells at all. Now granted the turbo had a $10k higher MSRP but there is a distinct bottom to the market as where I don't see that with the GTS. Both when up there in mileage start requiring expensive maintenance. There have been some GTS's salvaged and sold for parts on Ebay(what a shame). The turbo market would not allow this. If the car can be restored or rebuilt it is. I have seen seriously damaged salvage title turbos sell for $30+k, if this same car were a GTS it would be a parts car and sell for $15k tops.
Why a perfectly clean car like my GTS. A rare one off color combo, 5 speed with all records. An impeccably reliable all original car in concours condition can only bring $36k or less is beyond me. This is a lot of car for the $$ and far better and faster than a lot of high priced luxury Japanese imports. Gets tons of attention and a pleasure to drive. needs nothing yet if this were a comparable turbo it would sell for 40% more.
IMO most of these cars are worth at least 30-35% more than they are selling for. I hope someday the market will show their real value.
I don't think he is in touch with any of these markets. He has started to use more realistic numbers for some models but if his pricing was close to accurate I would have a fleet of Porsche's many different models that I would love to own but they aren't out there for the pricing he lists. I find anything purchased in the price range he states is usually a car I wouldn't want to waste my time on. Anything worth buying usually sells for far more than what he considers excellent condition. I guess his idea of excellent condition differs from what I consider to be excellent by a long margin.
I do think that the nicer 928's will start going up in value but I still say that buying these cars as an investment doesn't make sense. When you consider the amount it costs to insure, maintain and store these cars you realize that the money isn't there. The only way to make money on a car is to flip it.
02-16-2009, 02:24 PM
#96
Nordschleife Master
You both have hit on the one item with regard to 928 values that find irrational.
I see the following classes of 928s:
1) Low-mileage pristine 928s either extreme OB (e.g. Kermit etc.) or late model GTSs with the occasional mid-year extraordinary car (the ~300-mile Amazon GT for instance) wherein the value of these cars is their undriven condition. The sky is the limit on the pricing of these cars and more power to the sellers and buyers. I'd love to see that '94 go for $100k.
2) Thoroughly and competently mechanically-restored cars with factory-original paint (or well-documented minor paint work, or thoroughly-professional windows-out repaint) and no bodywork stories. Many examples of these cars are owned by Rennlisters. Arguably a good class 2 car may differ, objectively, from a class 1 car only due to mileage.
3) The third class of 928s are those that have only been 'fixed when something broke.' In addition to needing several thousand dollars worth of rubber and plastic along with mechanical bits that have exceeded their lifetimes, these cars usually also exhibit many examples of thoughtless repair work that requires expensive remedial effort. These seem to be the cars that form the basis for the "data" in KBB, Excellence, etc.
4) The last class of 928s are those that are so tired and/or messed-up that they are presently beyond help. I write presently, only because we have seen the muscle car market bubble to the point that as long as there was a single VIN tag in good condition it was "worth it" to do a full restoration. But, at the present time basket-case 928s are worth only what their parts might fetch.
What I find irrational is the lack of spread between class 2 and 3 cars. Many "driver" buyers, either deliberately or ignorantly, discount the value of extensive recent restoration work to a small fraction of what such work would cost them if they were to do it. Consequently, class 2 cars tend to change hands very infrequently and - it seems - only when the owner is distressed and then at a too-low price.
Prospective buyers seem to want to compare class 2 cars with class 3 and consider them equally valuable. They use "evidence" from KBB, Excellence, etc., to support their "case."
I see the following classes of 928s:
1) Low-mileage pristine 928s either extreme OB (e.g. Kermit etc.) or late model GTSs with the occasional mid-year extraordinary car (the ~300-mile Amazon GT for instance) wherein the value of these cars is their undriven condition. The sky is the limit on the pricing of these cars and more power to the sellers and buyers. I'd love to see that '94 go for $100k.
2) Thoroughly and competently mechanically-restored cars with factory-original paint (or well-documented minor paint work, or thoroughly-professional windows-out repaint) and no bodywork stories. Many examples of these cars are owned by Rennlisters. Arguably a good class 2 car may differ, objectively, from a class 1 car only due to mileage.
3) The third class of 928s are those that have only been 'fixed when something broke.' In addition to needing several thousand dollars worth of rubber and plastic along with mechanical bits that have exceeded their lifetimes, these cars usually also exhibit many examples of thoughtless repair work that requires expensive remedial effort. These seem to be the cars that form the basis for the "data" in KBB, Excellence, etc.
4) The last class of 928s are those that are so tired and/or messed-up that they are presently beyond help. I write presently, only because we have seen the muscle car market bubble to the point that as long as there was a single VIN tag in good condition it was "worth it" to do a full restoration. But, at the present time basket-case 928s are worth only what their parts might fetch.
What I find irrational is the lack of spread between class 2 and 3 cars. Many "driver" buyers, either deliberately or ignorantly, discount the value of extensive recent restoration work to a small fraction of what such work would cost them if they were to do it. Consequently, class 2 cars tend to change hands very infrequently and - it seems - only when the owner is distressed and then at a too-low price.
Prospective buyers seem to want to compare class 2 cars with class 3 and consider them equally valuable. They use "evidence" from KBB, Excellence, etc., to support their "case."
02-16-2009, 02:24 PM
#97
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Anthony you bring up a good comparison about the Turbo and GTS. But there is another potential influence which may keep the higher mile GTS's from getting top dollar. Specifically the earlier 928's S4 & GT offer very similar performance as the GTS and a low mileage version of these cars can be had in the high 20's or low 30's (about the same price as a high mileage GTS). An enthusiast that wants to drive the car may choose the low mileage GT instead. The turbo you own doesn't really have an equivalent in earlier or later model years. It is unique in styling and power.
I do think that the nicer 928's will start going up in value but I still say that buying these cars as an investment doesn't make sense. When you consider the amount it costs to insure, maintain and store these cars you realize that the money isn't there. The only way to make money on a car is to flip it.
I do think that the nicer 928's will start going up in value but I still say that buying these cars as an investment doesn't make sense. When you consider the amount it costs to insure, maintain and store these cars you realize that the money isn't there. The only way to make money on a car is to flip it.
As far as an investment there is no guaranteed car to buy. These are all toys and a collector buys them to enjoy or for bragging rights. If he has tons to throw away on a nice GTS great but to buy it as an investment is as much of a gamble as anything else. You would probably do better buying Bordeaux and hoping it appreciates more than cars.
As far as Porsche's that might appreciate like a 73 RS. There are so few that may or may not. My guess would be the only Porsche's from the 90's that might appreciate would be the 94 turbo S, 993 turbo S, 968 turbo, the 964 RS, 964 RS 3.8, 993 GT2 EVO and possibly the few remaining low mileage 928 or the perlglanz GTS. The rest will eventually hit their max value and these might bring multiples of their MSRP although the cost to acquire any of them is already well into 6 figures and you always need a buyer to give you your price.
Although if I for one was offered a 928GTS with 6k miles vs a new MB S65 or something like that I would opt for the GTS or any of these older Porsche's over anything built new today.
02-16-2009, 04:11 PM
#98
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02-16-2009, 04:27 PM
#99
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I dont think there are cars that are EITHER of two extremes wherein everything has been replaced, or those that have had only broken things repaired and done improperly.
Anyway, its been covered quite enough to this point. I responded as i read the thread, then i found many further posts on the subject in support/against your argument. I think that covered it.
02-16-2009, 05:48 PM
#100
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02-16-2009, 07:11 PM
#101
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Economy is bad even some GT2 aren't pulling MSRP prices and back a couple years ago they would pull in 30,000 to 40,000 over MSRP.
For close to $100,000 I'd take a 911 turbo or a newer GT3 before a 928 even as a 928 owner will be looking to forward to a 911 turbo car or a GT3
At some point will sell the 1987 S4 that has 68,000 miles bought from original owner back in 94.I wished the same that 928 prices would some day go up its a matter of supply and demand.
For close to $100,000 I'd take a 911 turbo or a newer GT3 before a 928 even as a 928 owner will be looking to forward to a 911 turbo car or a GT3
At some point will sell the 1987 S4 that has 68,000 miles bought from original owner back in 94.I wished the same that 928 prices would some day go up its a matter of supply and demand.
02-16-2009, 09:42 PM
#102
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As an example - a poor one perhaps since I'm not "in" the 911 world - last year I went with a friend to look over a 1996 993 turbo with 120k miles and $35k+ worth of receipts for the 18 months previous. It's hard for me to argue that a 120k-mile turbo should be sold for many multiples of a GTS with half the miles. But it was. Why? I'm not sure, but I can tell you that virtually no expense was spared on that turbo and it was way closer to class 2 than class 3.
I know of several examples of 928s that are very close to the extremes of 2 and 3.
There is one car 'round these parts were everything has been replaced from radiator to ball joints to HVAC actuators to window gaskets. You'd be hard pressed to find a single part with less than a quarter-million mile lifespan that hasn't been replaced in the last 4 or so years. Everything on my parts list plus a whole bunch more.
On the other hand I saw a car for the first time last summer with 44k miles on the original timing belt with receipts for nothing but fluid changes and a few dealer odds and ends. That car is pretty much the example of a class 3-ish car (except for the paint and interior that are impeccable.) There's nothing horribly wrong with this car. It was well-purchased and is unique for many reasons. But, with 20 year-old hoses, fuel lines, gaskets, etc., it has many thousands of dollars of parts in its near-term future needed to get it into the shape of a class-2-ish $25k+ 928.
It certainly natural to argue that no perfect example of a class 2 (or 3) 928 exists. However, it is obvious to me that it is pretty easy to look at a 928 and decide if it is pretty close to a 2 or a 3 and also roughly what it would take to move it significantly in the "2" direction.
02-17-2009, 10:18 AM
#103
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Thread Starter
I agree that mileage alone should not classify these cars and to add 10% for low mileage as Excellence puts it is a joke.
Last edited by cobalt; 02-17-2009 at 11:36 AM.
02-17-2009, 11:35 AM
#105
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