928ntslow

Chuck has it right about what I said. It's just the same old story when it comes to 928 values regardless of MY. I had casually read through this thread (with some interest ) until I started to see the same old crap getting slung around. I lost interest pretty quick after that. Its the same old posters whining as they usually do encouraging others to join in. It's like you guys are just plain bitter and it comes out in several of your posts regardless of 928 content. I think one could check back over any 928 value thread (especially GTS's) and see the same old nonsense and the same old posters poking their sticks.

Yea, I can choose to look the other way, But I don't and won't. I'll voice my opinion as loud as you guys do with your negative comments. Have a nice day!

cold_beer839

As others have said, the rarity of the GTS will help sustain it's value. That's one of the main reasons I got one.

IMO, the value will increase in years to come. Lets revisit this thread in 10 years, if we survive oBama and Oprah (sorry, just had to).

cobalt

+2 well put.

Actually I was asking if we will see a new high price set with this car. I don't see why not even in this bad economy. All of these cars including the majority of the 406 GTS are seeing a lot of use. I consider my car to be in the middle possibly even low side with 62k miles compared to most GTS's out there. As more and more cars are driven the few cars like this will eventually become highly coveted by the collectors of the Marque.

I don't think any of you can argue that the 928 especially the GTS does not belong in a Porsche collection of significant cars. IMO these cars in pristine condition belong right up there with pristine examples of the911R, 911RS, 911S, 930 turbo carrera, 930 turboS slope nose, 94 turbo/turboS, 964 RS/RS3.8, 97 993TTS, 993 GT2, 914/2.0, 914-6, 924 GTS, 944 turboS, 968 turbo, etc, etc.

At least if I had the $$ these would be a few I would be collecting.

Many collectors of these other cars have paid far more than MSRP for pristine examples and IMO a 928GTS in this condition is a once (maybe twice) in a lifetime opportunity to own.

hacker-pschorr

I still think the seller should put this car in an RM or similar prestigious auction to see top dollar.


I would like to know where all of you "928 defenders" are when us OB owners are raked over the coals for asking about performance options.
There are far more “just sell that old POS and buy a 32V” comments around here then people dissing the value of the model overall.

Chuck Z

You're talking a whole different ball game...... this GTS is a pristine stock original car not a hot rodded/modified or potentially modified 928. What's to defend about that? Pristine OB potentially selling for big bucks.... I'm all for that too.

hacker-pschorr

Just tossing out another example of people (fellow shark owners) going out of their way to rip on 928's.
Seeing Keith upset with this thread (and others like it), I feel the same way when I see people ripping on OB's (in general, not any specific OB).

To me it's not a different ball game, to anyone who is a true 928 enthusiast of all variations, colors, upgrades, and model years.
The ripping on Malibu's car (someone called it a pile of crap??) is really sad. We wonder why he doesn't post anymore. Is it something I would want to own? No, that doesnt mean it belongs in the crusher.

I never said anything against this specific car. I am not comparing "this car" to any other 928. I hope it does sell for big money.

Tom. M

I'll have to somewhat disagree with the comment that if this particular GTS sold for a high price (and I'll throw Kermit in there too), that it would bring up prices of our 928's. If I told someone that came to look at my GT (theoretical asking price $45000) that it is priced at that because a mint, collector, never driven GTS recently sold for $100,000 I would get seriously laughed at. Even a more direct example..that 89GT with 300ish miles...if that sold for $100,000...it would have no effect on the selling price of my 89GT....they are not even close in condition, mileage, etc... different buyers...different end goals.

Those cars are collector cars and only that. I'm not saying that it isn't worth $100,000.00..but it has absolutely no effect on what I can sell my car for (my car falls in the class of a "driver"). Apples and oranges. Now..Chuck..if you buy a nice driver GTS with around 50k miles and you pay $75K for it...then maybe that would be relevant...

In the long run...I do believe prices will go up just due to the fact that there will be fewer and fewer 928's..and even less so GTS's.

I also don't see this discussion as bashing, but rather the contrast between enthusiasts seeking a fantastic driving machine (the 928 is the best by far), over someone looking to fill a spot in a collection, and anticipating a decent return on an investment.....

cobalt

I think you have a valid point. Although if this car or Kermit sells for big $$ there is no reason why any other comparable condition 928 shouldn't command similar treatment. We are all aware that the market is based on what someone is willing to pay. We should be grateful that there are people willing to spend nearly $100k on a car as nice as this. This only helps to keep the 928 alive instead of them disappearing into the junk yards as many have.

There should be a definite distinction between pristine 928's and the average 928. So many of these threads are fueled by articles in Excellence Magazine where for some reason they can put a spread of a few thousand $$ between so so condition cars and what they consider excellent condition. IMO they are taking KBB or some source and playing with numbers based on your average run of the mill car and saying this same market applies to specialty cars like the 928 in this case specifically the GTS.

To be honest these articles do nothing to help the market if not hurt it.

I had the same thing happen when I tried to sell my pristine ground up restored 914-2.0l. Everyone that came to look at the car quoted Excellence pricing. At that time a so so car was around $4kand an excellent condition car was noted as being worth $7k so my asking price of $10k was laughed at. Some of these people sent me pictures of their "great deals" as an attempt to rub me or prove me wrong. I didn't want to **** anyone off but these guys happily spent $6k on a car I wouldn't have given them $4k for and they passed up on a nearly new fully sorted 2 owner car with about every option. Eventually they dumped $5k+ into theirs and owned a car still worth only what they paid and the woman I sold mine to for $9500 drove it for 2 years without issue and sold it for $14,500. This same car is now valued at over $20k.

So my point being is that a clean example should fetch far more than a rat or average car and not just a little more as everyone expects. If people can only look at what they buy based on their bank account then they need to evaluate what it is they are after and not expect the market to cater to them because they can't afford what they want. IMO any low mileage 928 in this type of condition should command far more than the average car and to group all 928's into one category only hurts the values for all of us.

Lets face it there are a lot of really bad 928's out there and 99% of them aren't on this forum, so why should we not expect our cars to appreciate as we fix our cars and make them better as other clean Porsche's do. If the bell curve works for 911's shouldn't the 928 warrant the same.

Tom. M

This is the exact reason people here get all riled up when a crappy article about the 928 comes out. This directly affects the price of their 928 since, just like you experienced, a buyer will pull out his copy of Excellence and say..oh..it's got high miles, it's in average condition, and the magazine here says those 5-sp'ds are nothing but trouble..so I can't go higher than $9,000.00 for your 89GT.

worf928

You both have hit on the one item with regard to 928 values that find irrational.

I see the following classes of 928s:

1) Low-mileage pristine 928s either extreme OB (e.g. Kermit etc.) or late model GTSs with the occasional mid-year extraordinary car (the ~300-mile Amazon GT for instance) wherein the value of these cars is their undriven condition. The sky is the limit on the pricing of these cars and more power to the sellers and buyers. I'd love to see that '94 go for $100k.

2) Thoroughly and competently mechanically-restored cars with factory-original paint (or well-documented minor paint work, or thoroughly-professional windows-out repaint) and no bodywork stories. Many examples of these cars are owned by Rennlisters. Arguably a good class 2 car may differ, objectively, from a class 1 car only due to mileage.

3) The third class of 928s are those that have only been 'fixed when something broke.' In addition to needing several thousand dollars worth of rubber and plastic along with mechanical bits that have exceeded their lifetimes, these cars usually also exhibit many examples of thoughtless repair work that requires expensive remedial effort. These seem to be the cars that form the basis for the "data" in KBB, Excellence, etc.

4) The last class of 928s are those that are so tired and/or messed-up that they are presently beyond help. I write presently, only because we have seen the muscle car market bubble to the point that as long as there was a single VIN tag in good condition it was "worth it" to do a full restoration. But, at the present time basket-case 928s are worth only what their parts might fetch.

What I find irrational is the lack of spread between class 2 and 3 cars. Many "driver" buyers, either deliberately or ignorantly, discount the value of extensive recent restoration work to a small fraction of what such work would cost them if they were to do it. Consequently, class 2 cars tend to change hands very infrequently and - it seems - only when the owner is distressed and then at a too-low price.

Prospective buyers seem to want to compare class 2 cars with class 3 and consider them equally valuable. They use "evidence" from KBB, Excellence, etc., to support their "case."

worf928

As an example, the following are the rough parts prices (only) that a class 3 5-speed 928 buyer might reasonably expect to expend to get the car into a class-2-ish state. (+/- 10% on the prices, they are most-definitely not way out of line.)

$1000 Clutch (e.g. disc, t/o bearing, arm, pressure plate, guide, etc.)
$ 350 Clutch hydraulics (master, slave, blue hose, flexible line)
$3500 Engine Refresh (all t-belt parts, rubber gaskets, hoses, sensors, reservoirs, OPG, MMs, intake and CC powder coating)
$ 700 Radiator
$1000 Shocks and Springs
$1000 Steering Rack, Tie-rods, Boots
$ 750 LH Rebuild
$ 800 A/C (expansion valves, compressor, vacuum actuators, o-rings, r/d etc.)

Total? $9100. Parts only. And that doesn't include normal wear items like brake pads, tires, fluides, etc.

Tom. M

I think you are missing a class in there....lets call it 2.5....owned by enthusiasts...slowly working through the car fixing stuff...may have had Tbelt and waterpump done...clutches never wear out realisitically..so that's fine, rad is fine..holds water, did fix the flappy with help of friends during tech session...rubber bits under there good, steering rack needs to be rebuilt due to slight seepage but have the kit to do so just need the time, the suspension is good---but hoping to upgrade to bilstein/eibach combo next pay check, and A/C is overated and never really works well in the 928 so no biggie...brains are fine ....and I have to sell now because I am out of work and need to downsize my stable of vehicles. ... and no..this doesn't describe my 928

SeanR

Thanks Tom, that was kinda what was going through my mind as I read that.

worf928

Looks like the family-sized can of worms is open. This is not what I intended, but I'll lie in the bed I made...

The question is: what should a documented almost-like-new, except for high miles, 928 be worth? A 928 you can drive the crap out of, be proud of, and not be worried about breaking-down embarrassment at SITM?

Obviously there's a continuum between 2 and 3 and it is IN that space where the 'negotiating room' between 2 and 3 exists. My point in presenting the parts prices was to put a stake in the ground: a good class 2 car should be worth $20k more than a class 3 car (other things like mileage and model year equal.) A 'good' deal on a class 3 S4 5-speed might be say $7.5k. But, the same car a few years and $10k+ (in just parts) later should be worth mid-to-high 20s in my mind.

Here's where the 'negotiating' starts (I'll play a nasty, nasty devil's advocate):

Pressure plates get tired. Throw-out bearings wear out. Release arm bushings disintegrate. Clutch discs will last for 200k miles if the POs used the clutch correctly which 3 out of 4 don't. Once the clutch is out the only option is whether or not you spend the extra $600 to replace the old, tired pressure plate. The other parts are either required or a no-brainer (unless the t/o bearing was already done and the release arm and guide can be reused.)

If you have records that show me that the coolant was changed every two years, you win. No? Subtract the price of a new radiator plus labor from your asking price of $30k. AND I should think that head gaskets are in my future. Since I'll be in there I'll need to replace the cam chain pads too.

Rubber bits good? Riiiight. For how long? Fuel lines replaced? ISV? Speed sensor? Hall sensor? Pressure gaskets on the intake nuts? Cam covers and intake flaky? OPG? No? Ok, subtract $6k from $29k.

Ok. Rebuild the rack, replace the tie-rod assemblies and boots before I "buy" and you win.

Ah yes! The "goodies." X-pipe. Classy wheels with the correct offsets not sticking out of the front wheel wells. These bring a 928 closer to 2.0 but only the bilstein/eibach's were in my price list.

So, since you've got flat-dish wheels and the original suspension subtract another 3k.

How are the lower ball joints? Alternator cooling hose ratty?

Torque tube's a bit rattly... and yep.... one of the 1/2-shaft boots is torn.

Oh... you're missing both belly pans and the rear brackets.

-$2k.

A/C can be made to freeze your ***** off. And it might not be a big deal to you, but if you want big bucks for your GT you have to assume it will to your prospect and I like my ***** frosty. $-3k. (My 911 mechanic tells me that labor's a bitch on 928 A/C. Pod and console has to come out etc.)

If the LH has already been rebuilt then great. If not, then it will fail. It's only a matter of time. My mechanic hates working under the dash. -$1k.

And THAT is why class 2-ish cars get sold. Not because the person who paid for the work gets a good price.

Oh - and your driver's seat bolster is ratty and your carpets are tired. -$2k to pay for Paul's work and a carpet set.

So? Where are we at? $12k. And, you still have to rebuild the rack and replace the tie-rods and then get it aligned.

Obviously, this does not describe your car. My responses to you were somewhat tongue-in-cheek and somewhat serious. But, in my mind they are what should differentiate a class 2 $30+k solid driver 928 from a class 3 $8k fixer-upper. What we mostly see is 'fixer-upper' prices for cars that are better than that. KBB and Excellence pretty much assume a class 3.25 to 2.75 car and those with better cars get screwed.

I have seen a locally-owned S4 5-speed with 163k miles sold for about $17k.... because it had almost $20k in fully-documented work (along the lines of the first post) within a three year period before it was sold. The new owner wanted a rock-solid driver and bought one. The only serious problem the new owner has had since then was that the LH died. Originally the car was bought for better-than-a-good deal. The previous owner actually got 50% out of the recent maintenance and that's way, way better than KBB would get you. I'd rate that one at a 2.25 right now.

I have put $12k in parts into my '89 GT and I still haven't touched the A/C. I have spent a few Kay on goodies like CS wheels, externally adjustable koni's with the eibachs, x-pipe, etc. I'd rate it at 2.4 and I doubt that I could sell it for my purchase price plus 50% of the parts I've put into it. I would expect most "prospects" to offer me less than what I paid for it 'cause they'll be using KBB as their guide.

What I hate to see is class 2.0 cars selling for 3.0 money. On the other hand some folks assume that their 2.8 car can fetch 2.2 money. I certainly would rather see the latter than the former.

But, again, a 928, even with high miles in which _everything_ works, has correct wheels, the belly pans etc., and is documented rock-solid because of extensive restoration work should be able to fetch twice the price we usually see.

dprantl

+1. A perfectly running and maintained nice example of a 928 with 180k miles should sell for more than the same model with 80k miles that has been sitting for years undriven and is pleading for replacement parts. Unfortunately, this is almost never the case. Lucky me, and all the people that realize this, because we can get these nice high mileage cars for a cheaper price than they would otherwise go for.

Dan
'91 928GT S/C 475hp/460lb.ft, 213k miles and counting