"Machining" group buy
02-05-2009, 01:34 AM
#46
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Technically Ryan the hats are sort of wear items. Like a ball joint is a wear item, or tie rods. Alot of miles, but it does wear out.
I already have a set of aluminum hats for the 993TT rotors, and they are already installed on the car. I am trying to see what my options are for the future.
Since its pretty much easier for people to picture something already for sale on a website, this is a failure to launch anyway for the 993TT rotors.
I'd like to find out more about the wear patterns on the 993TT rotors - Jim seems to infer that people are not happy with them. Its not worth 200 dollars or even 100 dollars if you are replacing them twice as often or three times as often as a 450 dollar rotor (plus the 350mm one is bigger anyway - more heat control and such - and its actually nearly as light at the 332).
Let me use some contacts and see how much these hats would really be in a ground of at least 10. I'm sure I can find 4-5 people.
I already have a set of aluminum hats for the 993TT rotors, and they are already installed on the car. I am trying to see what my options are for the future.
Since its pretty much easier for people to picture something already for sale on a website, this is a failure to launch anyway for the 993TT rotors.
I'd like to find out more about the wear patterns on the 993TT rotors - Jim seems to infer that people are not happy with them. Its not worth 200 dollars or even 100 dollars if you are replacing them twice as often or three times as often as a 450 dollar rotor (plus the 350mm one is bigger anyway - more heat control and such - and its actually nearly as light at the 332).
Let me use some contacts and see how much these hats would really be in a ground of at least 10. I'm sure I can find 4-5 people.
02-05-2009, 02:15 AM
#47
Nordschleife Master
Brendan,
I am VERY interested in this, I would probably take 2 sets of the aluminum hats, should the rotors be able to be obtained at a reasonable price. (ie not a grand each one)
But I am curious as to what calipers, and the cost of them might be for this setup.
Irregardless I would love to get 350mm rotors on the front of my car.
I am VERY interested in this, I would probably take 2 sets of the aluminum hats, should the rotors be able to be obtained at a reasonable price. (ie not a grand each one)
But I am curious as to what calipers, and the cost of them might be for this setup.
Irregardless I would love to get 350mm rotors on the front of my car.
02-05-2009, 11:46 AM
#48
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Brendan,
I am VERY interested in this, I would probably take 2 sets of the aluminum hats, should the rotors be able to be obtained at a reasonable price. (ie not a grand each one)
But I am curious as to what calipers, and the cost of them might be for this setup.
Irregardless I would love to get 350mm rotors on the front of my car.
I am VERY interested in this, I would probably take 2 sets of the aluminum hats, should the rotors be able to be obtained at a reasonable price. (ie not a grand each one)
But I am curious as to what calipers, and the cost of them might be for this setup.
Irregardless I would love to get 350mm rotors on the front of my car.
That just leaves the idea that the goal is to make rotor hats to work with those brembo motorsports rotors that are 350x32 or the 350x34mm ones (can we use 2mm wider rotors? Is it 1mm on each side or is the offset different?)
They are around 450 colin. Ryan is checking to see if his brembo contact can get them for less. So that leaves us with under a grand for 2 of them. Still expensive, yes, but it seems like these are really nice units, and if we make them anti-rattle floating, then... well, they will last even longer (Fixed rotors, when they heat up, are said to go into a beveled washer/ cone shape because of the expansion, so thats bad).
So if you are okay with that plan, then cool. I have another person that is interested in the project as well, via PM. So thats me, you, man-x, and maybe Ryan. Thats 8. I think usual minimum orders are 10. I am sure we can get there.
02-05-2009, 12:11 PM
#49
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Brendan, because the rotor is thicker, but still mounts to the hat in the same spot, it moves the rotor centerline 1mm toward the middle of the car. Also, you will probably need to get the caliper machined for clearance for the 350mm diameter. Not a big deal, but will cost some, unless you do it with die grinder yourself...
02-05-2009, 12:40 PM
#50
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Brendan:
Couple of related comments:
1.) 993TT front rotors are 322mm
2.) You need a true 18" wheel (or bigger) to clear a 350mm rotor.
3.) Many of the early 18" modular wheels (and their copies) can only clear a 332mm, and that clearance is only with certain calipers.
4.) Make sure you allow for changes in the front / rear braking bias as you increase the front braking. Another reason I went 332 in the front was due to what I could fit to the rear.
Enjoy the quest
Couple of related comments:
1.) 993TT front rotors are 322mm
2.) You need a true 18" wheel (or bigger) to clear a 350mm rotor.
3.) Many of the early 18" modular wheels (and their copies) can only clear a 332mm, and that clearance is only with certain calipers.
4.) Make sure you allow for changes in the front / rear braking bias as you increase the front braking. Another reason I went 332 in the front was due to what I could fit to the rear.
Enjoy the quest
02-05-2009, 12:49 PM
#51
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thanks Jim.
1) So its a 28mm spacer for the calipers. I wonder if thats doable.
2) New wheels are on the list anyway
3) The calipers are hopefully going to stay BB. I could always run 19s.
4) I have an adjustable bias valve in the cockpit plumbed into the system. Its already there because I have big blacks on a 78 body that will have less weight front and back. I needed the adjustability as you suggest.
1) So its a 28mm spacer for the calipers. I wonder if thats doable.
2) New wheels are on the list anyway
3) The calipers are hopefully going to stay BB. I could always run 19s.
4) I have an adjustable bias valve in the cockpit plumbed into the system. Its already there because I have big blacks on a 78 body that will have less weight front and back. I needed the adjustability as you suggest.
02-05-2009, 12:50 PM
#52
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
What does everyone think. Should we focus on the 332 rotors, which are 10mm bigger? Or the 350s?
02-05-2009, 01:06 PM
#53
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FWIW, the 350mm brake has awesome braking torque. On my 993TT, I referred to them as "the hand of god"...
As part of your sourcing, make sure you can find the 12X1.5mm SHCS at the length needed for the 350mm. The last bolts I sourced came from Fabory (www.fabory.com). I would check with them if you do not already have a source.
As part of your sourcing, make sure you can find the 12X1.5mm SHCS at the length needed for the 350mm. The last bolts I sourced came from Fabory (www.fabory.com). I would check with them if you do not already have a source.
02-05-2009, 01:06 PM
#54
Rennlist Member
I havent read the entire thread, but why not just use the 964T rotors? same as GTS, and have the cast holes.
I guess if you want the cool look of a 2 piece, that is a good reason, but for function, the 964 give the diameter and proper offset.
I went down this road and it made more sense to use the single piece rotor that can be bought for $150 rather than the rotors that are not even replaceable on the 993TT. (they come assembled and you would have to throw their hat away) Plus, the custom hat is going to cost you $500 each, min. even in volume its going to be price. PLUS, I wouldnt trust just anyone to make it.
mk
I guess if you want the cool look of a 2 piece, that is a good reason, but for function, the 964 give the diameter and proper offset.
I went down this road and it made more sense to use the single piece rotor that can be bought for $150 rather than the rotors that are not even replaceable on the 993TT. (they come assembled and you would have to throw their hat away) Plus, the custom hat is going to cost you $500 each, min. even in volume its going to be price. PLUS, I wouldnt trust just anyone to make it.
mk
02-05-2009, 01:17 PM
#55
Nordschleife Master
Mark,
We are all aware of your thread, and how it worked out, I was planning on going that way myself, BUT would rather spend the extra coin and get better rotors and more leverage.
Brendan,
I had understood the cost or the rotors, I was more refering to the hats
As to my thoughts, 350mm or nothing!!!!
Using the factory calipers are good enough for me, I can machine them myself locally.
I will be having 18" kodiaks, that they should clear no issues. And I run 19" rims on the street, so clearance is no issue for me.
We are all aware of your thread, and how it worked out, I was planning on going that way myself, BUT would rather spend the extra coin and get better rotors and more leverage.
Brendan,
I had understood the cost or the rotors, I was more refering to the hats
As to my thoughts, 350mm or nothing!!!!
Using the factory calipers are good enough for me, I can machine them myself locally.
I will be having 18" kodiaks, that they should clear no issues. And I run 19" rims on the street, so clearance is no issue for me.
02-05-2009, 01:17 PM
#56
Rennlist Member
As our Mustang flyer says,
The 964T 965 rotors are a bolt on affair. same 322mm as the 993TT and they dont require hats. with spacers, even the S4 guys can upgrade to GTS brakes.
I was trying to put a package together for $725 for everything. discs, pads, spacers and GTS bolts. I need 5-10 to commit to do it for the group. The 944t guys were interested as they have the same S4 brakes and could use the upgrade too. comparing to just replacig rotors and pads, its like a $150 more and you get GTS brakes for all practical purposes.
mk
The 964T 965 rotors are a bolt on affair. same 322mm as the 993TT and they dont require hats. with spacers, even the S4 guys can upgrade to GTS brakes.
I was trying to put a package together for $725 for everything. discs, pads, spacers and GTS bolts. I need 5-10 to commit to do it for the group. The 944t guys were interested as they have the same S4 brakes and could use the upgrade too. comparing to just replacig rotors and pads, its like a $150 more and you get GTS brakes for all practical purposes.
mk
Brendan,
I like the Brembo Racing rotor too. But i am curious what all the other little stuff would add up to.
If we went with Brembo racing rotors at $450 (perhaps i can get them for less, not sure though) but we would then need hats and hardware to mount them.
Lets say pad cost is the same no matter what rotor we go with so lets look at just rotor cost.
THE KNOWN: 993 TT rotors $180 each (sunset last i checked) = $360
THE KNOWN: Lindsey Racing hats for the above $300
$660 total plus shipping (no tax on rotors though)
UNKNOWN: Brembo Racing 332mm rotors (most likely more durable, bigger) $900 pair target price $750 pair
UNKNOWN: Hat to mount them <$300
UNKNOWN: hardware to mount rotor to hub $? What like $50 max?
TOTAL UNKNOWN: $1100-$1250
So this Brembo exercise is likely twice the cost. I like that the rotor is larger, i like that the rotor material is likely much stronger. I dont like the cost, i also dont like the fact that its totally unproven and would depend on you getting good quality hats made.
What do you think? I am kinda tempted to just go the 993TT route (or is there some other cheap replacement that simply bolts on) and investigate cryo treating the rotors for increased life and possible reduction in wear and or cracking
Point is we should only have to buy the hats once. So after the initial outlay, the regular replacement cost is either $900 for Brembo rotors, or $360 for Porsche rotors which makes the stock items huge favorites. I know i could use the additional money saved on some other go fast goodie.
I like the idea, but the Brembo cost is huge, and unproven. But maybe i will be surprised by my quoted price.......
I like the Brembo Racing rotor too. But i am curious what all the other little stuff would add up to.
If we went with Brembo racing rotors at $450 (perhaps i can get them for less, not sure though) but we would then need hats and hardware to mount them.
Lets say pad cost is the same no matter what rotor we go with so lets look at just rotor cost.
THE KNOWN: 993 TT rotors $180 each (sunset last i checked) = $360
THE KNOWN: Lindsey Racing hats for the above $300
$660 total plus shipping (no tax on rotors though)
UNKNOWN: Brembo Racing 332mm rotors (most likely more durable, bigger) $900 pair target price $750 pair
UNKNOWN: Hat to mount them <$300
UNKNOWN: hardware to mount rotor to hub $? What like $50 max?
TOTAL UNKNOWN: $1100-$1250
So this Brembo exercise is likely twice the cost. I like that the rotor is larger, i like that the rotor material is likely much stronger. I dont like the cost, i also dont like the fact that its totally unproven and would depend on you getting good quality hats made.
What do you think? I am kinda tempted to just go the 993TT route (or is there some other cheap replacement that simply bolts on) and investigate cryo treating the rotors for increased life and possible reduction in wear and or cracking
Point is we should only have to buy the hats once. So after the initial outlay, the regular replacement cost is either $900 for Brembo rotors, or $360 for Porsche rotors which makes the stock items huge favorites. I know i could use the additional money saved on some other go fast goodie.
I like the idea, but the Brembo cost is huge, and unproven. But maybe i will be surprised by my quoted price.......
02-05-2009, 01:25 PM
#57
Nordschleife Master
As our Mustang flyer says,
The 964T 965 rotors are a bolt on affair. same 322mm as the 993TT and they dont require hats. with spacers, even the S4 guys can upgrade to GTS brakes.
I was trying to put a package together for $725 for everything. discs, pads, spacers and GTS bolts. I need 5-10 to commit to do it for the group. The 944t guys were interested as they have the same S4 brakes and could use the upgrade too. comparing to just replacig rotors and pads, its like a $150 more and you get GTS brakes for all practical purposes.
mk
The 964T 965 rotors are a bolt on affair. same 322mm as the 993TT and they dont require hats. with spacers, even the S4 guys can upgrade to GTS brakes.
I was trying to put a package together for $725 for everything. discs, pads, spacers and GTS bolts. I need 5-10 to commit to do it for the group. The 944t guys were interested as they have the same S4 brakes and could use the upgrade too. comparing to just replacig rotors and pads, its like a $150 more and you get GTS brakes for all practical purposes.
mk
We covered this in another thread I think well enough.
02-05-2009, 01:28 PM
#58
Rennlist Member
I added the info, because there was confusion it seemed of what diameter the 993TT rotors were. 322 vs 332 vs 350. 
anyway, if you are going to do this, I would say, use the 350s and make it a huge brake performance increase, or just do the 965s which are bolt on and cheap. 332 doesnt even get the size change that we got from S4 to GTS diameters! Hardly worth it for all the high cost of hats and rotors.
considerig one of the most popular racing set ups is the stoptech, which uses the same rotor size as the 964, I would say that with the right pad, is the way to go. (performance speaking) . on the street, there is no real difference as any street tire will be the limiting factor. in driving as hard as one can on the street and moutain roads, there is not a huge difference with even the GTS vs S4 diameters. However, there are hints of where it will be better, that being, at the threashold area when they are superhot and the speeds are great. Im sure it will be a big difference at Sears point next month, but until then its just a nice looking mod.
mk
anyway, if you are going to do this, I would say, use the 350s and make it a huge brake performance increase, or just do the 965s which are bolt on and cheap. 332 doesnt even get the size change that we got from S4 to GTS diameters! Hardly worth it for all the high cost of hats and rotors.
considerig one of the most popular racing set ups is the stoptech, which uses the same rotor size as the 964, I would say that with the right pad, is the way to go. (performance speaking) . on the street, there is no real difference as any street tire will be the limiting factor. in driving as hard as one can on the street and moutain roads, there is not a huge difference with even the GTS vs S4 diameters. However, there are hints of where it will be better, that being, at the threashold area when they are superhot and the speeds are great. Im sure it will be a big difference at Sears point next month, but until then its just a nice looking mod.
mk
Mark,
We are all aware of your thread, and how it worked out, I was planning on going that way myself, BUT would rather spend the extra coin and get better rotors and more leverage.
Brendan,
I had understood the cost or the rotors, I was more refering to the hats
As to my thoughts, 350mm or nothing!!!!
Using the factory calipers are good enough for me, I can machine them myself locally.
I will be having 18" kodiaks, that they should clear no issues. And I run 19" rims on the street, so clearance is no issue for me.
We are all aware of your thread, and how it worked out, I was planning on going that way myself, BUT would rather spend the extra coin and get better rotors and more leverage.
Brendan,
I had understood the cost or the rotors, I was more refering to the hats
As to my thoughts, 350mm or nothing!!!!
Using the factory calipers are good enough for me, I can machine them myself locally.
I will be having 18" kodiaks, that they should clear no issues. And I run 19" rims on the street, so clearance is no issue for me.
02-05-2009, 01:49 PM
#59
Nordschleife Master
considerig one of the most popular racing set ups is the stoptech, which uses the same rotor size as the 964, I would say that with the right pad, is the way to go. (performance speaking) . on the street, there is no real difference as any street tire will be the limiting factor. in driving as hard as one can on the street and moutain roads, there is not a huge difference with even the GTS vs S4 diameters. However, there are hints of where it will be better, that being, at the threashold area when they are superhot and the speeds are great. Im sure it will be a big difference at Sears point next month, but until then its just a nice looking mod.
mk
Please, you told us all this before, there are tons of pages on that setup. I for one dont like the concept so i am much more interested in this one. Can we keep this thread on topic please, and not keep going back to your setup.
I do agree that 350mm sounds better than 332.
Brendan, are you using S4 calipers? I would be starting with GTS calipers.
Jim, did you have to space out the GTS caliper to fit the 332? did you need to modify the caliper at all?
Last edited by RyanPerrella; 02-05-2009 at 02:28 PM.
02-05-2009, 02:13 PM
#60
Rennlist Member
Brendan,
I'd certainly be interested in a set of hats....
If it can be confirmed that the GTS 'Big Black' Calipers will fit both the 332 or 355 discs and it only requires a shim to space out the caliper to the relevant location, will the hats accept both size discs? This then offers flexibility and may appeal to a wider audience
This assumes the nat/disc bolt pattern is the same for both discs - can anyone confirm this?
I'd certainly be interested in a set of hats....
If it can be confirmed that the GTS 'Big Black' Calipers will fit both the 332 or 355 discs and it only requires a shim to space out the caliper to the relevant location, will the hats accept both size discs? This then offers flexibility and may appeal to a wider audience
This assumes the nat/disc bolt pattern is the same for both discs - can anyone confirm this?