Jadz928

This is a comparison on performance with respect to powertrain and drivetrain. I have many more miles on my 84 than the 87, and I wanted to give you this first impression since driving the S4.


-Both are pretty well sorted (at least for comparison).
-Both have similar HP/TQ; 84 - 310/295, 87 - 316/317.
-They have different final drive/ratios; 84 - 2.73, 87 - 2.20.
-84 spec weight is 3308lbs, 87 is 3505lbs.
-84 has custom exhaust and headers, 87 has stock exhaust and RMB.
-The rest is stock for comparison sake.


The 84 Euro is a little slow off the line but comes on fast over 3K rpm, with "set you in the back of the seat" horsepower. Rapidly, you approach redline and the peak HP comes on hard just shy of that. Time to shift. 2nd gear is rinse and repeat but this time with more velocity. This is the gear where you really feel the power in city driving.

The engine's aggressive 16V cam profile can really be felt in the higher rpm range with a real "sling-shot" type feel. Throttle response is excellent. Rpm fall is predictable and not too "blippie".

3rd gear is fun and this is where you level out for some good midrange "near power". You may not be at full peak HP yet, but the torque is doing it's job. So now you hit the open road, accelerate to peak, then 4th gear is ready to take you home. This is where the sky's the limit and you will feel a solid steady pull with +100mph velocity. 4th gear is also good for moderate highway driving. No need to downshift unless you want to. The only thing 5th gear is good for is finishing things off for max speed. Oh yea, and economy.... but this isn't a lesson of economy.

The 84 Euro has some serious raw power.


The 87 S4 has some low-end grunt, and you can feel it off the line. 1st gear picks up nicely around 3K rpm and that's when you're introduced to the S4's torque. You get another torque boost around 4K just in time for the HP to kick in. From there it's just solid power to redline. 2nd gear is similar and you can push this close to 80mph. It can also be an aggressive city driving gear.

The 32V has extremely smooth power. It almost makes the acceleration feel like a "non-event". But it isn't really... just look down at the speedometer, if you dare. Seriously smooth power. Throttle feels more in control than the Euro, and not as revvy.

3rd gear is like a highway gear to me. It's the driving gear where your in the power, or near it. Keep in mind, you can take 3rd gear over 100mph. 4th gear can be comfy cruising on the highway, with a little attitude. If performs dual purpose, and I imagine it would be a blast at 120mph. Haven't gone there.... yet. 5th gear is nothing but overdrive or leveling out at tremendously high speeds.

The 87 has smooth torque and power in spades. It's attitude seems to lend itself to getting you over 150mph with ease.


High points:
The Euro is hoppy and fun when you get into the power. Actually, it's almost scary because it happens over 5K rpm. Very exhilarating!
The S4's power is so smooth and svelt, it really is. You'll look down and be shocked at how fast you're going!


Low points:
The Euro is missing something on the low end. It really takes some aggressive driving to "get into it".
The S4's cams leave something to be desired. It just doesn't "wind out" the way the 84 does.
For all practical driving purposes, I think both are missing something in gearing. OTOH, both were made to go really fast. If you've ever been in 4th gear at 130mph, you will understand why it is the way it is.


Which one do I like more? They are really two different animals. Though, if I were to chose, I'd pick both.

Tom. M

Do you have any dyno graphs of your 84? I've only seen one Euro (84and up) 5 sp that put down something that was even close to what they are "rated" at. Most Euro's we've done up here have been relatively low rwhp.. Most S4's we dyno are around 260 to 270 rwhp consistently ..and with a xpipe..they start heading towards 300...
I'm not intending this as a slam in any way, it's just that I would really like to see some good dynographs from the Euro's..

Jadz928

Tom,
I don't have dynographs yet. I've always wanted to know, though. I know this is just conjecture, but the Euro feels like it has more power. FWIW.

BC

A little money and that S4 could really be woken up. S3 cams plus some base circle cutting will make your car a different animal altogether.

I think the Euros are more capitalized. Where as the S4s were in the years Porsche seemed to be holding the car back.

Tom. M

Yea..I felt the same when I compared my old US 84S 5sp vs my old 87 AT... in second gear the 84 would break the tires free with ease and scream to red line..however, the dyno results were telling..the 84 was 180rwhp 240 rwtorque..and the 87 was 273 rwhp 301 rwtorque . Drop a 2.73 diff in the 87 and she'll come alive .

You now have your mission...head to the closest dyno shop and get both yours on the rollers. would make a great back to back comparison..

BTW...I would love to have either (or both) of your 928's. One day I will get a 84-86 Euro..and the pearl white S4 looks awesome..

Jadz928

I know it could use a better cam profile. For now it's just great. Did my comparison seem to favor the Euro? When I was done writing, I thought it not much of a comparison but more an explaination of the attitude of each.

Jadz928

For it to be a more direct comparison, the S4 needs the X-pipe.

And you're right, a 2.73 rear end would really wake up the S4. Heck, the Euro could use a layshaft from a 83-84US trans. I've driven a Euro with this setup and it feels really quick.

And don't forget the Euro is at least 200lbs lighter.

I'll make that one of my next orders of 928 business. Find a local Dyno.

And thank you, Tom

Jadz928

Consider this my "shade tree" approach to helping people new to 928s understand them a little better.

Any back issue of Road & Track with 928 impressions/comparisons would be much better.

This is my "seat of the pants" take on it.

mark kibort

S4 would have the edge over the euro in many ways. Hard to compare driving the same as much of the differences will be percieved in the different final drive ratios.. since the gear spacing is near the same, they are just different, and have their own individule sweet spots. Try and do a 60mph to 100mph, or 60-80mph, run with a S4 vs the 84 euro and you will see what i mean. there are some subtle driveability differences but as we have discussed for 100s of pages of discussion, gearing doesnt make HP. Only a more effective use of it for a given speed range.

The S4 is going to have more power all around, the euro will be close but only be close at the higher RPMs due to its peaky hp curves. the S4 has the 5 liter and can be tweaked pretty easily to over 300rwhp, where the euro cant really be changed much. Is also newer AND has the better borg warner gear box. That alone, makes the S4 more attractive. does the euro have the s4 brakes? If not, another strike.

BC

It was great. Spot on.

Jadz928

I stopped reading there ....

I agree with you on everthing else, the rest just seems like which is the better car, all around. I'm not going there. They are both awesome in my book.

mark kibort

When I had the euro 5 liter US, it was basically like the euro. I could have made many reasons why I liked it better. I still like the body styling of the old cars. In my book, they are both fantastic cars! Now that Ive had the S4, Ive become partial to it. I do like the slightly lighter weight of the pre-S4 cars. Plus, they can be a little easier to work on in some ways.

mk

largecar379

to really compare the two, you should take out several differences between the two.

use the same trans/rear gear

weight the cars the same.

make sure each engine is fresh and properly tuned.

fuel and it's supply should be the same for each car.

use the same driver under the same conditions,

ad nauseum........

you can see that doing comparisons like this is subjective to how each car is prepped.

car magazines have been trying this for years----let's call up Ford and compare with Ferrari or a Viper, for example.

the cars show up tuned by the factory techs, and all bets are off as to which will out perform the others.

pull two cars of the same make and model from a dealer's show room/lot, and you'll get two different results in performance......

my pick?

the Euro.

not because it will outperform the S4, but because there aren't many of them to be had.






--Russ

IcemanG17

The LH euro and S4 are really quite similar in performance, but with a vastly different feel......since the euro is lighter, the power to weight ratio is better for the euro, but the torque is lower 310hp-295 torque in 3308lbs for the Euro (10.67 hp/lb 11.21 tor/lb) vs 316hp-317tor in a 3505lb S4 (11.09hp/lb 11.05tor/lb).....the good part is both motors tend to be underrated.....it seems 260+whp is common from well running Euros (both CIS and LH), but with around 250ftlbs of torque.....S4's tend to dyno slightly higher in the 270 range for 5 speeds...but with over 290ftlbs of torque at the wheels.....

When the 32V was made, clearly it was designed to provide and even wider powerband....look at how mild the cams are on S4's....the GTS are very mild......

Note counting styling between the two...then single biggest difference is the brakes & transmission....the S4 brembos are far superior....so is the "improved" borg warner box....

Tom. M

All this talk of weight differences...I would like to see some scale data..I'm betting you will be surprised how heavy the early body's are...and how light the S4 body's are...