Black Widow's 2nd track day.VIDEO UP!!!!
01-19-2009, 11:07 PM
#61
Race Director
Thread Starter
Your chassis twist has a lot to do with that. PLUS, did you say , 300lb springs in the rear? If so, thats the problem get ride of those and put some 450 or 500lbs in the rear. rear swaybar stiffeners are a good idea too with the lighter spring set up. if you have 500lbers in the rear, that might not be needed. Look at those pics. either too low of spring, no swaybar or the lack of a cage is causing some strange tire contact. no front swaybar can also do this kind of issue, where the one wheel in a turn is so crushed, that the opposite rear is lifted giving you LSD slip and almost run away motor revs on the exit.
mk
mk
Interesting....I just watched the video again...damm my seat moves WAY TOO MUCH...okays thats now near the top of the list (under the fuel tank)
Ya its got 300lb springs in the rear..... the guy that built it put those on to reduce oversteer.....but it had NO CAGE AT ALL when he was running it too...maybe the increased cornering loads with the monster tires is too much for a non cage reinforced chassis, if the chassis was flexing a bunch on him at Streets of Willow, that could reduce traction in bizarre ways?
01-19-2009, 11:19 PM
#62
Rennlist Member
Could have been driver induced oversteer.
Either way, put the 400-450 lb springs on the list. It could be a little dangerous when you start pushing that thing at speed.
fuel pump
seat mount
cage complete
springs (rear heavier)
rear swaybar steroids
Either way, put the 400-450 lb springs on the list. It could be a little dangerous when you start pushing that thing at speed.
fuel pump
seat mount
cage complete
springs (rear heavier)
rear swaybar steroids
MK
Interesting....I just watched the video again...damm my seat moves WAY TOO MUCH...okays thats now near the top of the list (under the fuel tank)
Ya its got 300lb springs in the rear..... the guy that built it put those on to reduce oversteer.....but it had NO CAGE AT ALL when he was running it too...maybe the increased cornering loads with the monster tires is too much for a non cage reinforced chassis, if the chassis was flexing a bunch on him at Streets of Willow, that could reduce traction in bizarre ways?
Interesting....I just watched the video again...damm my seat moves WAY TOO MUCH...okays thats now near the top of the list (under the fuel tank)
Ya its got 300lb springs in the rear..... the guy that built it put those on to reduce oversteer.....but it had NO CAGE AT ALL when he was running it too...maybe the increased cornering loads with the monster tires is too much for a non cage reinforced chassis, if the chassis was flexing a bunch on him at Streets of Willow, that could reduce traction in bizarre ways?
01-20-2009, 01:26 AM
#63
Former Vendor
Ive thought about that, 
but Im not too far off Anderson's settings now, as I think he is 800 and 500 springs. (but he has the bumpsteer angles fixed).
That curve down the corkscrew, is a little unfair to compare suspension action as the car is almost tossed off a cliff and is caught at the bottom. Joes and Marks look similar to this when caught in action.
Normally, you would never catch both tires compressing to this degree, and have to deal with the tremendous toe out, but, out of the turn, it doesnt really matter, as the inside tire is lifting up and barely contacting the ground anyway.
mk
but Im not too far off Anderson's settings now, as I think he is 800 and 500 springs. (but he has the bumpsteer angles fixed).That curve down the corkscrew, is a little unfair to compare suspension action as the car is almost tossed off a cliff and is caught at the bottom. Joes and Marks look similar to this when caught in action.
Normally, you would never catch both tires compressing to this degree, and have to deal with the tremendous toe out, but, out of the turn, it doesnt really matter, as the inside tire is lifting up and barely contacting the ground anyway.
mk
I'd guess that there is a bunch more in both Joseph's and Mark's car, left on the table, than anyone would like to know.
Anyway, I'm just suggesting an approach to setup.
01-20-2009, 01:37 AM
#64
Rennlist Member
Ive driven both Marks , not so much in anger, but Joes also. They are not much different than mine in many ways. much more power, and more stick, but both are very neutral and driveable.
If you saw the video I posted of Marks car at laguna, you can see that it was all over the place. I think over the next few years, he and I talked about changing a few things that helped his cars handling in a big way. tire wear, handling, and his times all got better. Sure Mark is great behind the wheel, but a good car is a good car!
Remember, the set up I'm adocating ran the same time as mark andersons car, with 100 less hp at laguna Seca. (same weight, DOT tires, etc). It didnt do it under power, obviously, either.
Its kind of funny, but when you think about it, these 928s are not very developed and would be considered crap cars by most top drivers. (didnt Stu Hayner drive Marks car and call it "undriveable" ) We have , and especially Mark A, wheeled these cars pretty quicky around the track. In my case, I think ive got pretty good at driving a car that is not professionally set up. Heck, I probably wouldnt know what to do with something that was a full blown, pro set up race car. Someday, it would be nice to find out!
MK
If you saw the video I posted of Marks car at laguna, you can see that it was all over the place. I think over the next few years, he and I talked about changing a few things that helped his cars handling in a big way. tire wear, handling, and his times all got better. Sure Mark is great behind the wheel, but a good car is a good car!
Remember, the set up I'm adocating ran the same time as mark andersons car, with 100 less hp at laguna Seca. (same weight, DOT tires, etc). It didnt do it under power, obviously, either.
Its kind of funny, but when you think about it, these 928s are not very developed and would be considered crap cars by most top drivers. (didnt Stu Hayner drive Marks car and call it "undriveable"
) We have , and especially Mark A, wheeled these cars pretty quicky around the track. In my case, I think ive got pretty good at driving a car that is not professionally set up. Heck, I probably wouldnt know what to do with something that was a full blown, pro set up race car. Someday, it would be nice to find out! MK
You have to be careful when comparing cars with Anderson's car. He is relatively insensitive to car setup, as a driver. He just drives whatever he gets into...he could drive a milktruck with blown shocks faster than others can drive their racecar. He'd be a terror in a big budget, sorted, race car.
I'd guess that there is a bunch more in both Joseph's and Mark's car, left on the table, than anyone would like to know.
Anyway, I'm just suggesting an approach to setup.
I'd guess that there is a bunch more in both Joseph's and Mark's car, left on the table, than anyone would like to know.
Anyway, I'm just suggesting an approach to setup.
Last edited by mark kibort; 01-20-2009 at 01:34 PM.
01-20-2009, 02:22 AM
#65
Race Director
Thread Starter
Its kind of funny, but when you think about it, these 928s are not very developed and would be considered crap cars by most top drivers. (didnt Stu Hayner drive Marks car and call it "undriveable" ) We have , and especially Mark A, wheeled these cars pretty quicky around the track. In my case, I think ive got pretty good at driving a car that is not professionally set up. Heck, I probably wouldnt know what to do with something that was a full blown, pro set up race car. Someday, it would be nice to find out!
MK
) We have , and especially Mark A, wheeled these cars pretty quicky around the track. In my case, I think ive got pretty good at driving a car that is not professionally set up. Heck, I probably wouldnt know what to do with something that was a full blown, pro set up race car. Someday, it would be nice to find out! MK
This is a good point.....I guess its all relative...the top "pro" drivers have basically an unlimited budget and engineers all over the place to make changes....so of course they can tailor each car to each driver & track.....
Sure its easy to spend a ton of $$$$$ to go fast....but where is the fun in that....when you can have a car thats a fraction of the price thats just as fast!!
I don't want to race my wallet (or the wifes)....I want to race my 928!!!!
I like this analogy...anyone can buy a great bottle of wine that cost $100....but find one that tastes just as good for $10...now that is RARE
I'm also quite lucky that there are several 928 racers-builders out there that have "been there and done that" whose advice I consider invaluable!!
01-20-2009, 02:25 AM
#66
Rennlist Member
Looks like a great time, Brian! What is that, a Hero camera? You can probably have a small tab welded to the roof bracing to bring it forward a bit. You may be able to find a wide-angle lens for cheap at the camera shop(where you can try them out) and just glue it to the housing.
BTW, I think the advice about finishing the cage before you spend a lot of money on suspension tuning is sound. Obviously Mark has a lot to offer from experience and I mostly agree with the priorities he mentioned:
Fuel issue
Seat
Cage
etc.
If you're seriously considering a fuel cell, I'd say plan it for much furher down the list, but finish the cage with the FC location in mind (depending on how extensive the cage will be).
BTW, I think the advice about finishing the cage before you spend a lot of money on suspension tuning is sound. Obviously Mark has a lot to offer from experience and I mostly agree with the priorities he mentioned:
Fuel issue
Seat
Cage
etc.
If you're seriously considering a fuel cell, I'd say plan it for much furher down the list, but finish the cage with the FC location in mind (depending on how extensive the cage will be).
01-20-2009, 02:33 AM
#67
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Nice job Brian. You're improving rapidly.
Are you using all the road at the exit of 2 & 9? You can keep it flat through 7 and the esses after 11. Try raising your eyes and look through 7 toward 8 and that'll make it less intimidating. And I think the pic w/ your LR tire barely on the road may be a result of hitting the curb at the apex of 5. The car will make that "pose" as it's landing.
I tried signing up at the last minute for the Trackmasters day but ended up getting stuck on the waitlist. I just signed up for NCRC on the 13th so I'll see you out there.
Are you using all the road at the exit of 2 & 9? You can keep it flat through 7 and the esses after 11. Try raising your eyes and look through 7 toward 8 and that'll make it less intimidating. And I think the pic w/ your LR tire barely on the road may be a result of hitting the curb at the apex of 5. The car will make that "pose" as it's landing.
I tried signing up at the last minute for the Trackmasters day but ended up getting stuck on the waitlist. I just signed up for NCRC on the 13th so I'll see you out there.
01-20-2009, 02:47 AM
#68
Race Director
Thread Starter
Nice job Brian. You're improving rapidly.
Are you using all the road at the exit of 2 & 9? You can keep it flat through 7 and the esses after 11. Try raising your eyes and look through 7 toward 8 and that'll make it less intimidating. And I think the pic w/ your LR tire barely on the road may be a result of hitting the curb at the apex of 5. The car will make that "pose" as it's landing.
I tried signing up at the last minute for the Trackmasters day but ended up getting stuck on the waitlist. I just signed up for NCRC on the 13th so I'll see you out there.
Are you using all the road at the exit of 2 & 9? You can keep it flat through 7 and the esses after 11. Try raising your eyes and look through 7 toward 8 and that'll make it less intimidating. And I think the pic w/ your LR tire barely on the road may be a result of hitting the curb at the apex of 5. The car will make that "pose" as it's landing.
I tried signing up at the last minute for the Trackmasters day but ended up getting stuck on the waitlist. I just signed up for NCRC on the 13th so I'll see you out there.
I did hit the curb on 5 a few times so that is VERY possible!! As for "progressing".....I had an excellent instructor the 1st two times I hit the track!!
I tried several different "lines" on 2....from the standard late apex (school line) to the "hug the inside the whole way (race line)" It didn't seem significantlly better either way....I could turn in faster with the school line, but accelerate sooner with the race line...I dunno
I did take 7 flat a couple times, which kinda freaked me out....but my best lap time of the weekend (2:12) was taking 7 flat and 8 at over 90mph....then I just stayed in 4th over 9.....(same gearing as you with the 2.64 "euro" box)...I could still get over 5200rpm (112mph) by the braking zone on 10.... I do need to work on 9 since the car tends to float a bit there, which is fine in 4th, but kinda sketchy in 3rd at high RPM going down the hill?
I'll see ya on the 13th!!!!! Looks like the 928 will be well represented!! Don't forget your chatterbox, as you can't hear a damm thing inside the Widow! I'd love to get your opinion of how its drives on the track.....
01-20-2009, 03:15 AM
#69
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Re: turn 2 - with either the school line or racing line, you want to start the turn wide and end wide. You want to make a parabola. Midway through the turn you're hugging the inside and on constant throttle. Then feed the power, slowly unwind the wheel and let the car carry wide. You want to touch the exit curbing.
All of this will come naturally. I scared myself silly the first time I got sideways over the top of 9. Now if the car doesn't break loose a tiny bit, I'm pissed because I know I didn't carry enough speed.
I'll have the Chatterbox on the 13th. It's going to be a good time.
All of this will come naturally. I scared myself silly the first time I got sideways over the top of 9. Now if the car doesn't break loose a tiny bit, I'm pissed because I know I didn't carry enough speed.
I'll have the Chatterbox on the 13th. It's going to be a good time.
01-20-2009, 01:29 PM
#70
Rennlist Member
I thought you would like to know what speed turn 8 is possible with your car.
100mph at the exit, but 90 is going pretty good, but safe through there. with a good early apex and a slight drift, you will end up and USE the wide exit birm which has grip too, and you will be able to dart back in just as the birm ends.
turn 2 is a early apex, to get the car turning angle set. its not a wide to narrow curve, as if you drive that way, there is MUCH time too loose. take a look at someone drove that way in a lighter car, (BMW racer) in that test day video a couple of years ago. you see he uses this line and I run way up on him and make up a lot of time by a early turn in, trail brake and hugging the inside line. on the exit, yes, get out real wide and throttle as you can.
The reason you are floating on 9, is because you are exiting way too narrow and should end up dropping out of the hill way way left. you let the car exit when it is light, with no steering input, so it just falls down the hill naturally. I dont do any sterring input, until i get some compression on the exit, half way down the hill. early apexing this turn is good to get an early start on the change of direction. generally a late apex causes issues and results in a lot of the spins you see there.
Just as another postitive note, you are leaving about 3 seconds on the table due to short shifting ,which is smart now that you are just getting used to the car, but once you start really beating on the car, those 3 seconds will be easy to find. the next 3-5 might be a little harder to find.. Downshift to 2nd before turn 5, downshift at 9, you could even be in 2nd at t-13. possibly turn1 downshift to 3rd and into turn 2. It will feel natural as you get comfortable with the car. great progress. As you can tell, we are all excited for you !
Dave A. : No way that incar was the hero, the audio was too good!
mk
100mph at the exit, but 90 is going pretty good, but safe through there. with a good early apex and a slight drift, you will end up and USE the wide exit birm which has grip too, and you will be able to dart back in just as the birm ends.
turn 2 is a early apex, to get the car turning angle set. its not a wide to narrow curve, as if you drive that way, there is MUCH time too loose. take a look at someone drove that way in a lighter car, (BMW racer) in that test day video a couple of years ago. you see he uses this line and I run way up on him and make up a lot of time by a early turn in, trail brake and hugging the inside line. on the exit, yes, get out real wide and throttle as you can.
The reason you are floating on 9, is because you are exiting way too narrow and should end up dropping out of the hill way way left. you let the car exit when it is light, with no steering input, so it just falls down the hill naturally. I dont do any sterring input, until i get some compression on the exit, half way down the hill. early apexing this turn is good to get an early start on the change of direction. generally a late apex causes issues and results in a lot of the spins you see there.
Just as another postitive note, you are leaving about 3 seconds on the table due to short shifting ,which is smart now that you are just getting used to the car, but once you start really beating on the car, those 3 seconds will be easy to find. the next 3-5 might be a little harder to find.
. Downshift to 2nd before turn 5, downshift at 9, you could even be in 2nd at t-13. possibly turn1 downshift to 3rd and into turn 2. It will feel natural as you get comfortable with the car. great progress. As you can tell, we are all excited for you ! Dave A. : No way that incar was the hero, the audio was too good!
mk
Dennis
I did hit the curb on 5 a few times so that is VERY possible!! As for "progressing".....I had an excellent instructor the 1st two times I hit the track!!
I tried several different "lines" on 2....from the standard late apex (school line) to the "hug the inside the whole way (race line)" It didn't seem significantlly better either way....I could turn in faster with the school line, but accelerate sooner with the race line...I dunno
I did take 7 flat a couple times, which kinda freaked me out....but my best lap time of the weekend (2:12) was taking 7 flat and 8 at over 90mph....then I just stayed in 4th over 9.....(same gearing as you with the 2.64 "euro" box)...I could still get over 5200rpm (112mph) by the braking zone on 10.... I do need to work on 9 since the car tends to float a bit there, which is fine in 4th, but kinda sketchy in 3rd at high RPM going down the hill?
I'll see ya on the 13th!!!!! Looks like the 928 will be well represented!! Don't forget your chatterbox, as you can't hear a damm thing inside the Widow! I'd love to get your opinion of how its drives on the track.....
I did hit the curb on 5 a few times so that is VERY possible!! As for "progressing".....I had an excellent instructor the 1st two times I hit the track!!
I tried several different "lines" on 2....from the standard late apex (school line) to the "hug the inside the whole way (race line)" It didn't seem significantlly better either way....I could turn in faster with the school line, but accelerate sooner with the race line...I dunno
I did take 7 flat a couple times, which kinda freaked me out....but my best lap time of the weekend (2:12) was taking 7 flat and 8 at over 90mph....then I just stayed in 4th over 9.....(same gearing as you with the 2.64 "euro" box)...I could still get over 5200rpm (112mph) by the braking zone on 10.... I do need to work on 9 since the car tends to float a bit there, which is fine in 4th, but kinda sketchy in 3rd at high RPM going down the hill?
I'll see ya on the 13th!!!!! Looks like the 928 will be well represented!! Don't forget your chatterbox, as you can't hear a damm thing inside the Widow! I'd love to get your opinion of how its drives on the track.....
Last edited by mark kibort; 01-20-2009 at 01:46 PM.
01-20-2009, 02:01 PM
#71
Rennlist Member
Go to 1:10 to see that you can take turn9 after a quick brake and early turn in, full throttle on the exit of the first birm, full throttle passed the right hand birm and let the car just fall down the hill full throttle! force it to the right on the exit, too early and you would be in trouble.
This is a 1:59 lap
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yusC...eature=channel
This is a 1:59 lap
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yusC...eature=channel
01-20-2009, 05:03 PM
#72
Race Director
Thread Starter
Re: turn 2 - with either the school line or racing line, you want to start the turn wide and end wide. You want to make a parabola. Midway through the turn you're hugging the inside and on constant throttle. Then feed the power, slowly unwind the wheel and let the car carry wide. You want to touch the exit curbing.
All of this will come naturally. I scared myself silly the first time I got sideways over the top of 9. Now if the car doesn't break loose a tiny bit, I'm pissed because I know I didn't carry enough speed.
I'll have the Chatterbox on the 13th. It's going to be a good time.
All of this will come naturally. I scared myself silly the first time I got sideways over the top of 9. Now if the car doesn't break loose a tiny bit, I'm pissed because I know I didn't carry enough speed.
I'll have the Chatterbox on the 13th. It's going to be a good time.
I can't wait to get some instruction from Dennis and MK....I'm sure that will really open my eyes to what the Widow can do!!!
01-20-2009, 05:04 PM
#73
Race Director
Thread Starter
Go to 1:10 to see that you can take turn9 after a quick brake and early turn in, full throttle on the exit of the first birm, full throttle passed the right hand birm and let the car just fall down the hill full throttle! force it to the right on the exit, too early and you would be in trouble.
This is a 1:59 lap
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yusC...eature=channel
This is a 1:59 lap
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yusC...eature=channel
01-20-2009, 07:19 PM
#75
Rennlist Member
Yep, you got it. You and I will go out and easily find a safe 6 more seconds, and then, IM NOT GOING TO HELP YOU ANYMORE! 
dont worry, you are already in the groove. 2:12 doing all the safe things you are doing is quite fast! Pressing the gas is the easy part.
mk
dont worry, you are already in the groove. 2:12 doing all the safe things you are doing is quite fast! Pressing the gas is the easy part.
mk
One thing I am 100% sure of is that I am leaving lots of seconds out on the track all over the place!!!!! I short shift, don't use all the gears to redline, am not even close to 100% braking...more like 80 if that... 2:12 staying in 4th over 9 and taking 13 far too easy, 14 is way late, which messes up 15 really isn't a bad time considering all the mistakes....but its still 10 seconds "off pace" of what I think the car could do once its setup correctly...or more with better aerodynamics
I can't wait to get some instruction from Dennis and MK....I'm sure that will really open my eyes to what the Widow can do!!!
I can't wait to get some instruction from Dennis and MK....I'm sure that will really open my eyes to what the Widow can do!!!