brutus

You know if the 928 was your only car and you needed it to get to work and the rental car was costing $30 a day there is a lot more motivation for it to get done. I have in the past found myself trying to suck up to the mechanic ,act like a nice guy, and tell them no rush take your time probably HOPING that they will charge less and do it better. The fact that the second shop would accept a job started by another and allow you to supply parts is really unusual. Maybe , in his mind he is doing you a favor.

Bill Ball

If a shop estimated 5 hours for a TB job, that should have stopped you right there. That would have been a very strong clue that they had never done one before. 5 hours for taking it apart is about right. So, at least they didn't over charge you.

ksucat90

I know it's tough dealing with shops on these cars, or any car. So here is some advice for you.

1. The "Job" of the shop is to make a profit. This is a reasonable request. Some do this without sacrificing their ethics, some do not. Pretty much like every other business out there. If you're a pain in the ***, I've got to think their profit drops every time you have an issue. How you deal with them is a variable.

2. Get it in writing. Get your agreement upfront, will it cost you more? Maybe maybe not, but you will know WHAT it will cost you. If you don't like the price, do not do it. Do you ever walk into a restaurant and order without looking at the menu and price, if so you get what you deserve. When you get the price, get the timeline with it.

3. Communicate upfront what your expectations are. Discuss events where you will communicate, such as when parts have been delivered, or when the intake is off. Whenever is appropriate without delaying your mechanic with stupid questions.

I'm open to other comments and suggestions, but when I hire someone these are the rule I like to play by.

Good luck.

nsantolick

Hello all;

Well, I just got back from a nice long weekend, blowing off a bit of steam and taking in a lot of well needed fun. Getting out for a bit seems to have left me a bit refreshed, and seeing things a bit differently. Insomnia was getting to me, and to tell you the truth, I've fought with it quite a bit in the last six months, largely do to various issues related to the car. (The first night there, I got in 14 hours... My norm is around 5 under the best circumstances. I hadn't slept for 2 days when I had left...)

I wouldn't have it any other way, I'd think. I mean, in the end, this should be one hell of a car, relative to what I'm most into. I do know that I'd have done it myself, but I took a chance with trusting others and can accept the blame. I expect to buy a lift in the next few months for future work. Until then, if I need it, a friend has offered space in a nice garage nearby if I go that route...

I checked my records. It feels longer, but my car was pulled out of the old shop and into the new one October 17th. I'll give him that the car at least has had a lot of progress in that time. I think the trauma of Rayco Euro has had me very sensitive to "stories" in general. I'm still deciding if I'll check on the car tomorrow or maybe give him even more time to update me on his own. I'm considering just putting it off until December 17th, the 2 month anniversary, but will decide a bit later tonight.

I like the analogy someone posted about the restaurant. With the current shop, I basically have gone in and ordered a nice little buffet, without looking at the prices. I am convinced that he does quality work, and am not very worried about that, right now anyway. Nevertheless, I didn't even ask this guy his rates until work was already under way. (It's very reasonable...) I know the exhaust has seemed to take way longer than I'd expected, but I expect the final cost to be bearable either way.

It's a Roger type x-pipe with Roger type aftermarket cats, purchased separately. It was being installed on a 1989 Auto S4, with a 100% original exhaust system. I have no complaint with the pipe whatsoever. It's reviewed well, it seems. While I can't help but to shout "incompetence" as to Rayco's confusion with it, the new shop has installed it fast, and it looks great. He felt the need to bend it a bit to give the cat's some space, and insisted on retaining the air-pump, which is after all required by law here. He would face massive fines if he didn't comply.

Anyway, he had do install the air pump connection, and rig some fittings to get it to hook up. (He used some brass fittings here - not sure - I will post pix eventually...) I'm not certain, but he may have also relocated the oxygen sensor(s) for some reason. Again though, I have no qualms with the pipe itself. I never intended to put cat's on it, if I had done it myself. I thought I'd wait until I pass emissions and rely on the likelihood of the car being exempt in the future if I could keep it under 5,000 miles a year...

Part of my reason for the x-pipe was to make it easier to monitor the flex-plate issue. The new shop mechanic wasn't aware of that, as his car was a manual, but he has instructions and has been told to check that out. I'm confident that he's already read the instructions. That actually impressed me about him at first. I gave him a couple of print-outs and he read enough, even about the timing belt job, a job he's already familiar with, to bring up quotes to me.

He has cut all four discs, replaced the pads (& sensors, & spacers), changed the car over to stainless steel brake lines & flushed the system with contrasting color brake fluid. The pktensioner has been installed, and the drive belts replaced. I believe has changed the automatic transmission fluid. The valve covers and intake have been repainted, and look decent. (Sandblasted & solvent painted...)

I've not seen the car for what soon be three weeks. It might be done, or close to it, but I still don't know.

Like I said, I may just wait until the 17th now, but then again may head down or call tomorrow. Might just come down to a coin toss actually.

I REALLY appreciate all of the comments and advice from you all. I've definitely learned some lessons and picked up on a lot of great tips.

There's no doubt that Rayco really frustrated me, and it's left me a bit edgy. The new shop does seem experienced enough, and the work that I've inspected has been nice. I think when time went by and some parts were still not ordered, it scared me a bit. Fingers crossed. More to come...




Nick


1989 Porsche 928 S4
1960 Citroen 2CV
1973 Citroen SM
1986 Maserati Biturbo Zagato Spyder
1971 Mercedes 280S
1964 Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint Coupe
1974 Alfa Romeo Spider

Daniel Dudley

If you get tired of it, and want to get the car running, I can set you up with a mechanic in my area who will most definitely get it running. I can help you trailer the car to him, and he has a very small shop, so he wants them out the door. Factory trained on 911s, 944s, 951s and of course 928s. John Whitmer of AIC Auto is not a mechanic, but he is a member of the PCA, near Lancaster PA. He would know a 928 guy in that area. If you call him mention my name, and tell him I told you to call.

nsantolick

Flipped a coin. Heading down now. Wish me luck...






Nick


1989 Porsche 928 S4
1960 Citroen 2CV
1973 Citroen SM
1986 Maserati Biturbo Zagato Spyder
1971 Mercedes 280S
1964 Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint Coupe
1974 Alfa Romeo Spider

bcdavis

I have had similar problems with shops in the past. The main issue I have a problem with, is when they leave the car sitting there, and are not working on it. I understand that a shop may be busy. So if I am having "optional" work done, I don't mind waiting for an appointment to get in. But once the car is there, I expect them to work quickly. That means it should not take weeks and weeks of time. Because I expect to have at least one mechanic working on my car exclusively, all day, every day, until it is completed. If a shop can't guarantee that, I will take the business elsewhere. I have no problem if that mechanic ends up taking longer than expected. But I don't want them being pulled onto other projects. I tend to keep track of this by doing daily calls or visits. I want to know what they did on my car TODAY. That's if they seem to be lying to me... If they are a good shop, I only check once a week. The main thing is that the shop needs to understand you are on a time constraint. That you can't just leave the car there for an unlimited amount of time, for them to work on whenever they feel like it. Once I drop it off, I need it back in a couple of days. Not a couple of weeks. They need to understand that before I pick them as a shop. I find it's better to be a nice guy about everything except the time constraints. If it costs more to do it fast, that's fine. If I have to wait until they are not very busy, that's fine too. But once I drop it off, I want it done quickly.

SharkSkin

I'm in the middle of a fairly large project on my shark(refreshing everything between the RMS and the CV joints, including the RMS), and it has opened my eyes a bit more to what shops have to go through. You order all of the parts that you think you'll need. Inevitably you forget a part or two, and/or while you're in there you see something that you hadn't thought of replacing, but now that you have it apart you feel that it has to be done now. So you order the part and find that it's going to take a week(or two) to arrive. The above steps can happen more than once in any given project -- BTDT.

I consider myself very careful and think I know most every nut and bolt on the car(on mine at least), and it still happens. Now imagine yourself in a situation where the car comes to you in boxes, already apart... you get the idea. Having said that, it would be nice if the shop, when they find themselves in this predicament, would give the owner a call... but that seems rare.

nsantolick

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGHHHH!!!

Okay, flipped the coin. Lost, I suppose as the coin toss indicated that I should go in to check on my car today...

Good news is that the car is essentially done. It's waiting on the intake to be reinstalled. That, and the flex plate issue, which the mechanic concedes is a fairly simple task.




The bad news...




MY MAF IS MISSING!!!


The current shop insists that they didn't get it. I must give them the benefit of the doubt here. I don't think they got it back either. I was told that the current shop tried to call the last shop a few times, with no luck in getting the part(s)...

The course of action was to go to Rayco and see what I could do. I was a bit irate, after all of the other "fun" I've had with them. I went in to the repair department. Mark, the manager greeted me with more or less a "Hey Nick, what's up?" sort of line. I became quite livid... I knew that he already knew, etc.

I responded "you know why I'm here..." He denied knowing anything about it, I think. I explained that I just was told that the MAF was missing. He told me that it was returned with my car, when I sent the new shop in to pick the car up. (There were lots of parts, in boxes & whatnot...) (I asked my mechanic to check for everything when he picked it up, but I can understand how easy it was to miss something like that...)

Anyway, I kind of expected that response and things got a bit heated. Now mind you, I'm surprised how well it all went. I didn't curse, at least from what I can remember. I didn't side kick a Ferrari or anything. (honestly, I feared the potential to do something that stuipid in anger...) But as they denied everything, I got more and more enraged.

When he asked me "why" they'd keep the part, I did slip and regret to admit that something to the effect of "because your LOSER MECHANICS LOST IT" came out of my mouth. With that, I was immediately asked to leave.

He said "get out" and pointed towards the door. I told him that I wanted to talk to his boss. He told me to do whatever I want. I asked for his name and he told me to "figure it out myself..."

I might have blabbed something about, after all of "this bull****", how it would be worth thousands to me just to create a hassle for them legally. Told them that it'd be the best money spent this year. (okay, so maybe I was a bit irrational...)

Hey, I'm honesty surprised that it went down as calmly as it did. I really have had enough. I've had moments over this ordeal where I've considered just trashing the whole car and moving on. I have lost tons of sleep. I've been so worked up from time to time that I think I'd have been happy to just move on, because at least that would be some closure. Years wanting - months searching, weeks researching service procedures & advice after the fact, 4 months, thousands of dollars and two shops later, I find that I'm in for another couple of hundred because someone, somewhere along the line lost parts??? EEK!!!


This car wasn't by any means a project. It was drivable. It was in nice enough shape. I just wanted the reassurance of the belt service, pktnesioner upgrade and a x-pipe, to make the flex plate issue easier, mostly... Here's yet ANOTHER day of my life that pretty much has been consumed with the car... I am not exaggerating whatsoever when I admit that, if you looked at just how much time I've spent worrying about/dealing with this, there is no doubt that the same time applied to my business would have made far more money than I'll have into this car. Dead serious here. It would have been cheaper for me to destroy this car, and start over, rather than lose this much time worrying about it all... My fault again, but that's the way I am, and that's the way it's worked out thusfar...

To find yet ANOTHER delay after all of this, and to feel that it was caused by the "shop" that already screwed really me had me at my wits end...

I went next door, and spoke with whom I believe to be the manager of the sales area. Phil... Phil was nice, and calm, and talked to me about it all. At one point, he went in to see what's up, and came out some time later telling me that the repair guy "had a different story..."

Again, I was blamed for it taking so long. (2 1/2 months...) The reasoning - I provided my parts, which slowed them down. I repeated to him my grievances. I explained how it sat for 3 weeks plus before they even looked at it, despite having an appointment. I explained how they lied to me about progress, at least twice. I clarified that the parts I provided did little to delay anything - how they ordered $600 in parts AGAINST MY INSTRUCTIONS. When I reminded them how it was left outside, unlocked, window down, packed full of stuff, for a week, he wanted to know why I didn't call them... I mentioned the chips and dings - how they didn't use my service covers. Same deal; "I should have let them know..."

Honestly, what did I expect them to say? I'm sure nobody intended this to be a hassle. It does confirm what most say here about being very, very careful when looking for a shop. It IS way better to do it yourself. It's a shame that I got lazy basically and trusted a shop, mostly because of the fancy schmancy cars that they sell there...

Phil was nice. No complaints there. Mark, the repair shop manager had been nice enough with me, until then, and I can empathize how he must have felt. Nevertheless, I'm out a MAF, and have to endure yet another delay, and more money wasted...

It may be worth mentioning that Phil asked me if I told them to take their time, and I admitted that I did. I told him what I've already posted here; how with a larger job, I feared that being "a pain" could result in a padded bill, or poor work. He was nice and understanding. He related his own bad experiences to me a bit.

He understood how I've got to do what I've got to do, and conceded that it's been about 6 weeks, and he's just not in a position to write out a ~$700 check for my missing part. Can't fault him at all. Again, at a minimum, I suppose I should have checked for missing parts myself. On the other hand, that's what I'm paying others to do, right???

When I mentioned that I'm there in a borrowed car, as usual, he, lol, offered me a good deal on a cheap Audi that they're about to send off to auction. It was a bit funny, and both of us acknowledged that I'm there for a complaint and he's trying to sell me a car. Anyway, he was nice enough.

At the end, he swore to have anyone involved with the job to look around ASAP for the missing part. I'll call him directly later tomorrow and hope for the best. I'm not expecting much. I don't know if I have a lot of realistic options other than to just purchase a new MAF and chalk it up to experience...

I even kind of apologized for being so on edge, and I think everyone may have understood my frustration. Clearly, service managers like the phrase "loser mechanics" about as much as they like guys with 928's who bring in their own parts.

Oh well. What can one do? Roger's seeing what he can find for me, should I order a replacement as seems most likely. The car seems to be just about done, with the exception of installing the now restored intake. All hoses in the area have been changed out. The only confusion left is that Rayco didn't mark the vacuum hoses, which is a bit of an issue as the current mechanic only has books which cover up to the "S" models. I have that 4 CD set of Porsche literature somewhere. I'll try to find what he needs immediately. If not, perhaps I'll be able to find the info elsewhere.

If anyone can direct me to whatever he'd need to hook up whatever vacuum lines are in the area of the intake for my particular car, I'd be most appreciative. It's a California version of a 1989 S4 with an automatic transmission...

Is there anything worth mentioning about MAF's? I don't know much about them. Mostly, I just know that I drove the car there and now my mechanic tells me that my MAF is gone... Anythings possible, of course, but I lean towards believing him. At a minimum, I left today feeling that the end is in sight.

Oh well. That which doth not kill me, makes me stronger, right? lol





Nick


1989 Porsche 928 S4
1960 Citroen 2CV
1973 Citroen SM
1986 Maserati Biturbo Zagato Spyder
1971 Mercedes 280S
1964 Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint Coupe
1974 Alfa Romeo Spider

nsantolick

Might as well ask while I'm at it; does anyone know of where I can get a cheap MAF if necessary?

I'm going to supercharge my hypothetical car, should it not prove to be a Twilight Zone episode of sorts, and I actually get it back, and can drive it. Should this have anything to do with my choice of MAF's now???




Nick


1989 Porsche 928 S4
1960 Citroen 2CV
1973 Citroen SM
1986 Maserati Biturbo Zagato Spyder
1971 Mercedes 280S
1964 Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint Coupe
1974 Alfa Romeo Spider

Daniel Dudley

You want a new or rebuilt unit. Used ones are prone to getting tired and causing poor throttle response and lower overall power. Consider it a good investment.

jcorenman

Nick,

I hope you get your car back soon, and that it works out OK.

There's not much I can add to what has been said here, but it seems to me that most of what has happened is a result of expectations not being communicated as well as they should have been (on both sides).

Also keep in mind that everyone likes to stay within their "comfort zone", doing things they are familiar with-- at least folks who are trying to be in business and not out for an "adventure". Taking your own parts to a shop definitely puts them outside their comfort zone-- if the new part doesn't work or doesn't fit then who pays the shop's labor to replace it? If they supply the parts then they have the resonsibility for the entire job, parts and labor-- and they mark the parts up to cover the occasions when they get a bad part and have to do it twice. It's only fair.

So if you want to have the car maintained by a shop then my advice is to leave it completely stock and let the shop supply the parts. If you want to mess around and try some stuff like x-pipes, then do it yourself. You may get outside your comfort-zone in terms of skills and knowledge but that's where Rennlist comes in. There is some world-class talent here and they would much rather work on technical problems than another who-done-what-to-whom shop story.

In terms of dealing with shops, never ever suggest that they "take their time". I understand what you were thinking, but of course you want the job done right, that's a given. And a good shop won't rush a job even if you are in a hurry.

But if they have a choice between two jobs, one where the owner keeps pestering them for progress-reports and expressing keen but friendly interest in getting the car back, and another where the owner dropped off the car with some parts of unknown (to them) origin and doesn't seem to be anxious, then what would you do?

Mechanics and shop managers are all human and getting what you want is all about human-nature. Communicate clearly, try to stay in everyone's comfort zone, treat them with respect even when they screw up. Easy to say, hard to do, I suck at it but then I do my own work so I get to have all those conversations with myself.

I think this is what you need, your engine is a M28.42 ('87-91 auto). This is from pg. 24/216 of the WSM, which you should have on your CD set. If your mechanic doesn't have the 24-200 pages (section 24 pg. 201-224) then you might want to print him a copy of those pages from your CD set, those are the addendum pages that cover the LH models ('86 on). There are other addendums, look for high page numbers e.g. 100- or 200-onward. If you can help complete his books then I think you will find a very happy guy.



Good luck and keep the faith!

Jim bailey - 928 International

Nick please do not take this in the wrong way but do reconsider the addition of a supercharger.