nsantolick

Maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm a "pain in the ***" as some relatives had suggested. At a minimum, I think I genuinely could use some advice about how to deal with new shops...

My car was stuck at Rayco Eurosport Motorcars in Kingston, Pennsylvania for about 2 1/2 months, with nothing more done than them removing part of the exhaust and taking the timing belt and intake off of my car.

I think they just didn't know what they were doing, and my car got constantly pushed back in line. My final analysis is that Rayco sucks, and it was a big mistake to take the car to them in the first place. I accept...

The new place had been making progress, but from what I can tell, all that's happened in the last 3 weeks or so was that they finished installing the pktensioner and installed the drive belts...

I'd like advice on how to "handle" shops. Sure, it's reasonable that it may take some time to order what they need, install things, and inevitably place another order or two. Weeks going by with nothing happening, not even ordering the needed parts - well, that's another story...

What do you all recommend though when a car seems to be just sitting around? I've heard a lot of excuses, generally about how busy they are and all, but what would be a reasonable philosophy to follow in my case?

I fear that if I "push them", that at a minimum, the bill may be padded a bit. If I "let them alone", it seems that being "Mr. Nice Guy" most often results in less tolerant customers getting preferential treatment.

I've spoke to several now who suggest pride and ego of the mechanic makes it such that any advice is taken almost as an insult. Can this be why I'm waiting so long now?

I understand what they are saying with that, but I'll never really comprehend that mentality. Sure, you work on cars. Sure, you've had experience. Can even the best of them honestly feel that they know everything - that there is nothing left to learn? Isn't it naive to think that nothing can be learned from the distilled sum of knowledge produced by the specialists - the people who ONLY work on a particular car, or the people who can talk about the most microscopic details of a particular car model? No matter how much you know, don't you think it's likely that you'd learn even more if you spent a couple of thousand hours reading every last bit there is about "the details" of a job??? With me, the more I learn in life, the more I realize just how little I know.

Anyway, I'm trying to be patient here. A month ago, I stopped in the current shop and noted the relatively impressive progress. Two weeks went by, and I didn't see anything else done. They mentioned needing some more parts - washers for installing the intake again. I had Roger call the shop that day, and find that he couldn't get through and that his call(s) weren't returned. A week later, the shop told me that they needed to order those parts still... When I reminded them that there was an update, and now additional parts are recommended, I feel that I may have "insulted" the mechanic a bit. I don't think I'm wrong for double-checking that the expensive job will be carried out properly.

By the time I go back in, I'll have given them 2 weeks without contact to see if they can finish the job. I plan on going in the shop early next week and am considering moving it yet again, or maybe just paying around $200 more to have it flat-bedded back to my place, where I could have the pleasure of working on it, mostly at night, outside, in the cold.

When I go in, early next week, how do you all suggest I proceed if I find little or no progress?

Am I wrong for assuming that when they say "next week", that I shouldn't be still waiting a month later? When I get a bill, it'll be paid immediately. How would they feel if I made them wait 2 months?

There is a side of me that's ready to be spiteful here, and let the car sit for a few months before I pay. I don't want to do that. I like the guy. I like the shop. I want to bring other cars in and all - cars that I wouldn't mind leaving for months. At the same time, for the thousands it's costing me in labor, I think I deserve better...

When I asked about painting the intake, I was told that it would be done in 2 days. I mentioned power coating, and turned it down when I was told it would add 4-6 weeks. My decision to go with solvent paints was based on the timeframe that I was promised...

After all, it's 4 months now. My new "summer car" will need snow tires before I could drive it much, and that really, really sucks.

Anyway, if it was you, would you continue to "be patient" or is it time to get angry? Honestly, I'm rather "on or off" by nature. The "in between" has always eluded me...

I do remember why I got into fixing cars myself though. To think that I could have had a lift installed for less than this work is costing me really bothers me. I intend to buy my own lift by Spring and hopefully get more into doing my own work...

Trying not to rant here. Believe me, this is the abbreviated version. Any advice would be most appreciated. I want my dam car back already. I don't want to be the jerk, but I fear how I'll react next week if I find that I'm still in for a big, "never know how much longer it'll take" wait...





Nick


1989 Porsche 928 S4
1960 Citroen 2CV
1973 Citroen SM
1986 Maserati Biturbo Zagato Spyder
1971 Mercedes 280S
1964 Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint Coupe
1974 Alfa Romeo Spider

David L. Lutz

I feel your pain and sorry you are having these issues.

The "new place" is this a second shop different from Rayco?

AND does the shop where your 928 is now work on 928's and come recommended for a 928?

I guess what I am probably getting at is, if the shop (mechanic) doesen't know 928's that could be part of the reason you being pushed to the back of the line. Getting spiteful or pissed off and forcing this issue might cost you big bucks in the long run.

I think I would try to discuss this with the owner of the shop, try and determine if they can really fix your car or not. If the owner is the mechanic I think you are screwed.

I believe if it were mine I would try to arrive at a settlement $$ and call in the flatbed. I suggest a settlement because you for sure want all your parts to come home as well.

Good luck, and I think you are smart to think this cluster f. thru before a knee jerk reaction

wildwestsydney

I think that if you want to own a "super car" you should be able to turn the wrench yourself. If you have the cash to have someone else to do it you better dam well know the problem is and make sure you let the shop doing the work that you know what they are going to do.

nsantolick

It's at a different shop nearby. Screw Rayco! ; )

Actually, I really am happy with the quality of the work they've done so far. I know the owner had done a ton of work on his own 928 project car once, and seems to be shopping for another for himself. He claims to work on 928's and I have no reason to doubt him.

We talked for an hour or so before I pulled it out of Rayco, and I felt confident that he really knows his stuff... This isn't to say that he spends hours a day reading everything there is on all of the 928 forums, but he certainly has a lot of experience.

I feel comfortable that he can complete the job. I know he lost a mechanic or two since my car was brought in, and now feels that only he can complete the job, and that's fine with me too. I told him that I'm more concerned about it being tip-top when I pick it up than the time, but the delay still is getting on my nerves.

If he gets it done soon, I'll be a relatively happy customer. If I hadn't waited around for Rayco to do it for so long, I don't think I'd be so wound up about it all.

Assuming that the rest of the car is done, and all it needs is for it's intake to be reinstalled, and all hoses in that area replaced, it shouldn't take more than a few hours, right? Aside from the flex plate issue, which I may just handle myself, that should be just about all he needs to do for now.

Hopefully, I'll stop in next week and find the car almost ready, or even done by then. All I know is that if the parts still haven't been ordered, or something like that, it's going to be hard not to be a bit livid about it all.

In the end, I should have a really nice car. It was nicer than most I considered, cosmetically at least. It's having a ton of work & upgrades done. Ultimately the goal seems to be to supercharge the car, but not until I'm fairly certain that everything is as it should be. Funny, considering I still don't have much of a clue as to how fast the car feels as it will be when I finally get it back on the road.

During the last few months, I've mostly been driving a 1983 Mercedes Diesel. As far as the power of the 928, I'm sure I'm going to be in for a treat. : )


Nick


1989 Porsche 928 S4
1960 Citroen 2CV
1973 Citroen SM
1986 Maserati Biturbo Zagato Spyder
1971 Mercedes 280S
1964 Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint Coupe
1974 Alfa Romeo Spider

nsantolick

I think I am able to do the work. At the time though, I was really backed up with work, and had another car apart, for longer than expected thanks to multiple orders needing to be processed. I figured that Rayco must be good, since they sell exotics and were so reassuring.

At first, I was going to do it all myself. When I started the work, it was a really hot day, and I had to use ramps on a gravel driveway. I got lazy, called Rayco Euro, and was told how they work on 928's all the time, and if I brought it in early next week, that it would be done IN A DAY! When I brought the car there, complete with all the parts it would need, or so I thought, they told me A WEEK, AT MOST. 2 1/2 months later, I moved it to the new shop, disassembled. By the way - Rayco estimated the timing belt job to be 5 hours. lol They billed me 5 hours just for taking my car apart...





Nick


1989 Porsche 928 S4
1960 Citroen 2CV
1973 Citroen SM
1986 Maserati Biturbo Zagato Spyder
1971 Mercedes 280S
1964 Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint Coupe
1974 Alfa Romeo Spider

Shark Attack

Wow, sorry to hear. I came to the realization a few years ago, Im the only one who works on the car. I found you usually get *** raped on the price and then the job isnt done right.

they est 5 hrs for a TB job... I have done 4 or 5 by now, the last one I had help, it took us from 10 am till 2 AM. We had a few snafus along the way... If everything went right I think we coudl have taken maybe 2 hours off that time.

nsantolick

Its funny, but I had that realization decades ago. That's part of my problem. Honestly, I do just about everything myself in life. I had a weak moment and thought for a bit, "Nick, you can't do EVERYTHING..." Every dam time I let someone else do most anything, I regret it. What was I thinking???

I had started the 928 project after enough of my own delays, mostly spent researching and planning. If it wasn't so dam hot that first day, if Rayco didn't make it sound like it'd be back in a week, if I had just came to my senses, I'm sure I'd have NEVER considered letting others do the work.

Really. Simple as that. I got lazy and bought every line they told me. I figured, I could make the money to pay them faster than I could do the job myself, knowing how I'm prone to dragging things out.

Now keep in mind, when I searched for the car, I began at first looking for 3-5k cars that might have needed some TLC. I ended up with a significantly more expensive car, and although it too was bought on an impulse, I did what I could do to assure myself that it wouldn't need much of anything. I turned 40 in April, and for almost 2 years, planned that I'd do just that, then...

Over the 3 weeks it took to get it delivered from South Carolina, I figured, since I'm not CERTAIN of the age of the belt, and since the car was definitely "a keeper", I might as well just do it all first.

As much as it sucks, maybe I needed a lesson, a reminder of sorts. I do feel really screwed over, as it really did mean a LOT to me to have a cool car for the summer. On the other hand, I can honestly say that Rayco screwed themselves on this one.

I have every intention of getting more into cars now than I EVER have been in my life. If Rayco was honest, or even feigned competence, I honestly believe I would have been back there, at least in the next couple of years, to BUY a car(s) from them.

I see something like a Ferrari 308/328 or maybe a Lotus Elise in my future. I know I could save thousands if I bought one on eBay or something like that, but I still think that I would have paid the extra money and eventually bought one from them, even if it was a lot more money, but only if they treated me well.

So what now? They could have had a lifelong customer. Now they have a guy who will extract his modicum of revenge by spreading word of their bull****, wherever I can, forever. Joe Girard, once called "The Best Salesman in the World" wrote a book about "how he does it." He talks about the law of 300.

The law of 300 says that the average person knows about 300 people, more or less. Treat them well, and that's 300 people that may generate business for you. Treat them poorly, and, well, you know the math... I wonder what he'd say now that internet came on the scene?

I took a look at Rayco's fancy schmancy (relative to the area) dealership. I saw the Ferrari's lined up in the showroom. I walked around the lot and drooled over all of the Maserati's and "hot cars" they had for sale. I even tested the waters a bit asking for confirmation as to their aptitude with 928's, and was told exactly what I wanted to hear. Unfortunately, and despite their best intentions, it was a lie. I even warned them that the Porsche factory dealers don't want to touch the car, as THEY aren't experienced enough with their peculiarities. All I got was, "no problem - It'll be done in a week, Sir..."

Well, enough about them. And I still hope for the best with the current garage, but I know already, if I AM to get back into cars, I'll probably be the guy sporting all of the bandaids and oil-stained shirts henceforth.

Life is full of lessons. Sometimes, I suppose, you need a couple of them to be repeated a few times before you can accept the truth.

With 928's, at least in my area, with things as they are, it's silly not to do the work yourself.

I'm a believer in the fact that I can successfully do most anything that I put my mind to. I had a momentary lapse of reason. I thought that I'd be "like the others" and make things simple - just take my car to "the experts" and write a check in a week. Whoopsie doopsie!

Anyway, I'm off to Philadelphia and Atlantic City for the weekend. I'm going to hit a couple of crazy bars downtown, have some nice food, collect my thoughts and hopefully come back to good news about my Porsche.

If the **** hits the fan, so be it. I'll unleash the full power of my stubbornness and finish the car, probably marathon style, myself. If it works out that the current shop can handle it, all the better. Either way, it'll all work out in the end, I'm sure.

I have a lot of reasons for liking the cars that I seem drawn to. I can ramble on forever about Citroen's, but I'm fairly certain that the reason I have a SM is that I once read that "it's the most mechanically complex car ever built." That's what made me want one, I fear. And I did all of the work myself. And it was easy - even in the pre-internet days when I found it.

Over the last decade, I had 2 new Mustang Cobras at my disposal. The first one needed a new engine and transmission within a year. (out of 8 sold that year at my dealer, I was the 2nd to get an engine and the last of all 8 to get a new transmission) After the first came a supercharged convertible one - one with 425 horsepower. Eventually, I did the math, and compared my notes. As fast as they were, and pardon the pun, they just didn't have much of "what really drives me" with cars in general. They each depreciated more than I'll have into my S4 in the end. In theory, the 928 will have more of "what does it for me" than any other car I've owned...

All of this has me thinking about "the typical 928 owner..." I've read somewhere on this site, I think, that 81% of them are self-employed. I saw similar numbers at some Ferrari club events.

Actually, what I'm wondering now, and it may sound odd, but nevertheless I wonder if the percentage of 928 owners is disproportionately high as far as ADHD is concerned. I've been reading a lot about the subject for about 3 years now. I'm certain that I have a form of it, and honestly think it's a gift. I really suspect that a lot of people on this site do too.

Anyway, lessons learned, and still hoping for the best, I'm getting ready for the nice long weekend. Would have been nice to make the trip in the new toy, but at least I can park on the street with the old diesel.




Nick


1989 Porsche 928 S4
1960 Citroen 2CV
1973 Citroen SM
1986 Maserati Biturbo Zagato Spyder
1971 Mercedes 280S
1964 Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint Coupe
1974 Alfa Romeo Spider

mark kibort

why was the intake taken off?

nsantolick

You know, it just occured to me - I NEVER told them to start that job. Rayco let me know that they started it...

When I got the car, I noticed some oil pooling on the top of the engine. I did tell Rayco that I wanted the car looked over, but they started that "bigger than I understood" job on their own.

Anyway, it was for those oil leaks I suppose. Once they got into the engine, they did find that the cam gears and oil pump gear were worn too. (I saw them myself and they did show wear)

They also said that the rubber under the intake was all dry-rotted, so they were going to change out whatever hoses and such are found there. The new shop mentioned some sort of vacuum distribution rubber hose end thing.

Rayco also claimed that the crankshaft and cam gears needed new seals. Anyway, all of that seems done now. From what I know, all I'm waiting on is for the reassembly of the intake and whatever hose-work is related...

Sound normal??? (77,000 miles on a 1989 S4)






Nick


1989 Porsche 928 S4
1960 Citroen 2CV
1973 Citroen SM
1986 Maserati Biturbo Zagato Spyder
1971 Mercedes 280S
1964 Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint Coupe
1974 Alfa Romeo Spider

Hilton

New intake rubber, knock sensors and throttle position sensor are all very par for the course on an '89.. not to mention replacing the rubber fuel lines in the engine bay which are all brittle and possible cracking. I haven't seen an un-refreshed '89 which didn't have a vacuum leak (wrong idle rpms) or was down on power due to sensor faults.

Worn timing gears and oil pump gear is a little unusual at 77k miles - at least based on the couple of cars I've seen so possibly the belt was too tight after a previous job. My car had worn sprockets, but its done >150k miles.

nsantolick

I do know that twice in 2004 the car was brought to a Porsche dealer because of "belt fluttering..." Indeed, when I used a stethoscope on my car, I heard what I thought sounded like a "flutter" as well...

I suspect that a wrongly-tensioned belt may have caused the premature wear on those gears. I saw them myself and they seemed worn. The carfax (and overall condition) seems to agree with the mileage being accurate.




Nick


1989 Porsche 928 S4
1960 Citroen 2CV
1973 Citroen SM
1986 Maserati Biturbo Zagato Spyder
1971 Mercedes 280S
1964 Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint Coupe
1974 Alfa Romeo Spider

Mike Frye

Nicke, Nick, Nick.

Your story is all too familiar and I think you knew when you posted here that you were going to hear two things:
1) You should have done the work yourself and
2) Since you took it to a shop, now you need to let them do the work.

If I'm reading between the lines correctly, it sounds like you have spent some time talking to the owner and/or the mechanics since you dropped it off with specific instructions about things to do or check. You mentioned that there was an update on the washers for the cam covers IIRC. Most mechanics don't like that kind of thing, especially if you don't know the guy outside of work.

You knew about them because you either did the research on here or learned it from someone who did. The mechanic in your shop worked on one 928 (albeit extensively according to him) and may never see another one. If it wasn't the exact same year and setup it probably has 100 things that are different about it.

You told him that time is not a factor, but getting it done right is. Now you have to wait.

BTW- If you leave it there without paying at the end just to spite him he'll just charge storage fees, which you'll be obligated to pay anyway, so that really won't bother him at all.

I say wait it out and learn from this. There may be a few really great 928 mechanics hiding in your neck of the woods, but you'll find them on here, not in the yellow pages.

SteveG

to the original question. For this to have happened you have some serious communication issues. I can't understand the shop's attidude w/ a special car like this. Not trying to bust you, but you asked for feedback. Coupled with this I wonder why they would go ahead with work you think you had not authorized. At least that is what you say here.

another the oddity. I believe the book is 10 hours for a tbelt. Some might do it quicker, but I can't imagine a shop quoting a lesser number than the book, that is how they make money.

As was mentioned in other threads you started here (IIRC), Most of us do our own work, have manuals or CDs, a few special tools like the kempf tensioner. If I had a "fluttering" tbelt, I would have taken care of that in about 1 hour assuming all it needed was proper tensioning.

A little research here and a printer, you can save a lot grief. Good luck.

Gary Knox

Nick,
In the future, if you don't want to do the work yourself, consider bringing it down the NE extension to Glen Mills PA - that's where CaptEarlG hangs out in his home garage refurbishing, repairing, maintaining 928's from as far away as New England, NY, MD, and TN!!. He owns a '91 GT that he completely rebuilt from 3 "Insurance Totaled" damage into a showroom appearing and performing car. His e-mail is: captearlg@gmail.com Drop him a line, and you'll be very happy with his service.

Gary Knox
West Chester, PA

eugkim

I'd like to give some background to this situation from my point of view. I am the one responsible for Nick's situation. I recommended that he talk to this mechanic, as I found him quite knowledgeable on 928s specifically, but also foreign cars in general. I found him on the known list of 928 mechanics on another site. While it doesn't come out in Nick's OP, I believe that he will still acknowledge that this mechanic seems quite capable. In fairness, I did warn Nick that he seemed somewhat quirky, and that, from what I observed, he ran on his own timetable. I, myself, have been procrastinating some routine work on my car with him, for I'm assuming that it'll sit there a while.

While I'm not sure of exactly what has been done, I think that the mechanic may have accomplished a bit more than Nick thinks. The guy told me that he spent a day putting in Nick's full exhaust which he had to modify somewhat to fit.

In terms of the mechanic feeling insulted, I was not talking about you (Nick) putting in your 2 cents; instead, I was talking about having him getting overseen by another known 928 mechanic by phone to ensure that he knew what he was doing.

My advice, which I believe I told you already, is this: if you plan to use the mechanic again in the future, I'd gently try to prod him along. If you don't trust him, then take the car out. I was under the impression that you were still considering having him work on some of your other cars.

I definitely understand Nick's frustration, as he's been waiting to use his car since July. However, I think the sting of the current situation wouldn't be as bad if it hadn't sat around at the other garage for 3 months.

Hopefully, the car's done this week and everybody's happy.