BC

Methanol was on Erik, for this run, as Per Todd, IIRC. 1 pint (quart?) a minute approx.

AO

In his email to me, he said, "No methanol injection"

BC

We'll I will shut up then. Maybe the dynos after this one were the times he used methanol.

hacker-pschorr

The point of this dyno tune day was to start testing the methanol injection. Todd is developing a map in autronic to monitor and control the motor under meth, and to control the meth itself.

Once they started to see the misfire across the different plugs, the meth system was disconnected and they tried to work on the miss. Like most dyno sessions, they ran out of time.

I would like to thank Louie Ott and John Speake for helping us out offline with the igniton miss. The wealth of knowledge within this 928 group is simply amazing. Hopefully Todd will make it back to the dyno soon.

Tim Murphy

They did mess around with the methanol but it was not turned on with respect to the posted dyno run.

The whole idea with the methanol is to be able to increase timing but since they were already having ignition issues it was a mute point for this tuning session.

As for the ignition, don't rule out the stock system just yet.

Todd has the Autronic set up to run two different ignition maps..... with and without methanol. He has some safety stops in place so if the methanol is turned on but somehow fails the Autronic will immediately switch maps. As the voltage to the methanol pump increases with boost he follows the pressure with a pressure transducer right at the spray nozzle so it stays within a pressure range vs voltage to the pump (or is it boost? can't remember). This way he can identify a problem right away, such as a clogging nozzle reducing spray, a clogged nozzle with no spray, ran out of methanol, or total system failure. If things are not as they are supposed to be the Autronic will switch to the conservative ignition map.

It is very important that this system be fool proof because if it fails at the wrong time you WILL flush the motor.

Bill Ball

What was done to the AT to take all the abuse?

30 PSI? 675 RWHP despite fuel/ignition problems? Jeezuz!

hacker-pschorr

Transmission fluid by Lubrication Engineers, otherwise it's a stock 2.54 automatic.
Don't tell anyone, but he does not use synthetic motor oil in the engine....
Motor Oil comes from the same company - Lubrication Engineers. He has been using their products for many years with excellent retults. He has checked the bearings a few times on this motor, everything is perfect.

Fuel system is fine, when the plug fires the air / fuel is where he wants it.

The cylinder pressure, even at low rpm's, is simply blowing out the spark. He's running a plug gap of .022" to compensate, time to measure / change the dwell map. Going too high on this setting can fry the coil very quickly.

Imo000

If the spark is blown out with only a 0.22 gap, what’s the solution to this?

hacker-pschorr

I'll let you know as soon as it's figured out, just like any other ignition issue it could be a lot of things. Wires, cap, rotor, coil dying........first thing they are going to test / measure is the dwell time since all of the other components are not that old.

123quattro

I'm running coil per plug on my turbo car. It's these units.
http://www.034motorsport.com/product...products_id=39
I think my dwell is something like 3.5ms at 28 psi. The ignition reliably fires. I came up with that value through trial and error. I'm running the minimum that the engine is happy with. Same coils can go up to 9ms without issue if necessary. Just an option.

What plugs are in the engine? I ran some non-resistor plugs and they broke up very badly from 6000-7000rpm and then cleaned back up.

Reading threads like this are the reason why I enjoy checking this site.

hacker-pschorr

Thanks for the info John,
When you say your turbo car, is that your Audi? What ignition system is being used with these coils?

Todd has already created a bracket system to use the Cayenne coils with the S4 head. The coils you are using look like a nice setup, stay with the OEM plug ends, just make the cable whatever length you need based on coil placement.

As for plugs, he's running NGK non-projected electrode copper. I do not know the number off hand, the heat range is equivalent to a Bosh 5-6 range plug.

What plugs are you using, and what is your plug gap?

BC

If Todd pushes those coils to a more edgy dwell, he could pop them out like popcorn pretty soon. What the hell do I know, but when I spoke to him I was likening it to each coil supporting 425hp on each bank (which they are) - and these are simple, canister type "VW bosch" coils not originally meant to be anywhere near an engine like this.

I can't wait for when he puts the cayenne Turbo/ CGT coils on because thats what I have in boxes. Its selfish, I know. But I did tell him about all the part numbers for the looms, plugs, etc.

RicerSchnitzzle

Indexing the plugs may help. Most of the heavy turbo ricers have to do this for the same reason.

Amazing! Seems our bottom ends are a little tougher than we thought.

hacker-pschorr

Well, I might as well play devils advocate here

My 81, Carl's race car, Jean-Loui's race car and one of John's twin turbo's all make around or over 400rwhp with a single coil, distributor, rotor and a very old school ignition box.

The 951's put down 400+rwhp with a single, stock coil and ignition system.

I have friends with vintage race cars making 600-700hp not only with pushrods, but single coil's and distributors. They also spin higher RPM's for 20+ minutes in a race.

I have no doubt a fully operational 928 dual coil setup can support this much horsepower or more. If Todd simply switches to a COP setup now, we will never find out what the limitation was. A big part of this project is finding out what the limitations are of the 928 system. Otherwise Todd would already have a sleeved stroker with a custom intake under the hood.

I agree 100% the coil over plug upgrade is well worth the time / money. It cuts down on possible problems such as a worn distributor / rotor, takes the high voltage plug wires out of the equation and has the potential for much more power.

I'm with you, when I finally switch EFI systems on my cars, COP is the route I plan on taking......eventually

BC

Devils Advocate response.

(as you know) Its the boost Erik, that is blowing out that spark, or (technically speaking) creating an atmosphere in the chamber, mixed with the proper fuel ratio, that the collapsing field inside the coil that gets to the spark plug cannot now jump (without more tinkering past stock parameters)

Todd probably has an IQ around 140-150. Thats past mensa, and his intelligence is apparent in more ways than just automotive, imo, having spoken to him about non-automotive stuff (sometimes more than the car stuff).
*I think* He knows that the coil will burn up - he just wants to find out when. *I think* it will be soon, because when he starts getting into dwell times that the stock coil never was intended to work in with that much "pressure" - it will die a well-deserved death.

944 turbos making 400hp are not at 30psi as you know. (find a 951 that is at 30psi on stock coil(s)) They are at 18. maybe 20. Todd didn't have any issues at 20 with the stock coils. Thats why he is here now with stock coils. My only concern (basically invalid, since its Todd) is that he may hurt something more important in the process of testing this 30 dollar VW canister coil to its limits.
****
On your personal switch to Coils, you and your 2V stuff will find its not as easy as the CGT, CTT coils on the S4 head. You will need shorter, fatter bottom coils. VW makes some, but they aren't nearly as good as the CGT/CTT coils. Being inside the spider "area" also limits the height of the normal coil as does the shallower "cylinder" area it sits in where the spark plug is.