Water Pumps - Market Research
10-26-2008, 08:09 PM
#47
Basic Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Thread Starter
I sell the factory new pump for$672 and the factory rebuilt for $284.
Very few factory new pumps are sold so they have been around for a long time - maybe.
Factory new have failed !!
Rebuilt is the same situation as after market rebuilt - see first post.
Very few factory new pumps are sold so they have been around for a long time - maybe.
Factory new have failed !!
Rebuilt is the same situation as after market rebuilt - see first post.
__________________
Does it have the "Do It Yourself" manual transmission, or the superior "Fully Equipped by Porsche" Automatic Transmission?
George Layton March 2014
928 Owners are ".....a secret sect of quietly assured Porsche pragmatists who in near anonymity appreciate the prodigious, easy going prowess of the 928."
Does it have the "Do It Yourself" manual transmission, or the superior "Fully Equipped by Porsche" Automatic Transmission?
George Layton March 2014928 Owners are ".....a secret sect of quietly assured Porsche pragmatists who in near anonymity appreciate the prodigious, easy going prowess of the 928."
10-26-2008, 08:43 PM
#49
Drifting
Wait a minute, I only put 2,000 miles on my S4 in the past year.
100,000 mile pump with another crappy non-asbestos gasket.... The bolts will be rusted solid by then, never to be removed. We all know stainless steel fasteners are not suitable due to galvanic corrosion, so the zinc plated steel is the only other choice.
Asbestos Gaskets are what Porsche originally installed. Any long life pump should include an asbestos gasket too. They can still be made, here's a fabricator:
http://www.gasketstogo.com/
10-26-2008, 09:07 PM
#50
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Somewhat off topic but I did a search and can't find any clues. I've yet to really look at the Porsche water pump so this may be a stupid question.
Has anyone ever investigated that possibility of using an electric water pump to replace the mechanical ones? Any idea what would be involved?
Has anyone ever investigated that possibility of using an electric water pump to replace the mechanical ones? Any idea what would be involved?
10-26-2008, 09:11 PM
#51
Basic Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Thread Starter
Carl,
I really learn good info from these threads so let it run its course.
Everyone has an opinion, good or bad, factual or fairy tale.
This is all good stuff to me.
Roger
I really learn good info from these threads so let it run its course.
Everyone has an opinion, good or bad, factual or fairy tale.
This is all good stuff to me.
Roger
10-26-2008, 09:19 PM
#52
Nordschleife Master
Roger,
I really do like the idea of an overbuilt pump honestly. I am not familiar with the internals of the waterpump and have no idea how you disassemble it but is this something you would investigate. I think as the one poster mentioned that this could be the way to go. I love upgrades over original, and in this case i think a real case can be made for it.
Of course if you have an indestructable water pump then you wont be selling them to repeat buyers, but you shouldnt have any complaints lol
I really do like the idea of an overbuilt pump honestly. I am not familiar with the internals of the waterpump and have no idea how you disassemble it but is this something you would investigate. I think as the one poster mentioned that this could be the way to go. I love upgrades over original, and in this case i think a real case can be made for it.
Of course if you have an indestructable water pump then you wont be selling them to repeat buyers, but you shouldnt have any complaints lol
10-26-2008, 09:27 PM
#53
Team Owner
just a few thoughts on WP bolts not getting corroded.
I use a small coating of Blue RTV silicone on the both sides of the new WP gasket.
With a new set of bolts I use Loctite PTFE pipe sealant on the bolts, this effectively seals the bolts from corrosion in the block and the silicone adds an extra measure to protect the gasket from leaking to the bolts.
No problems yet and a WP removal after 2 years is easy, and the bolts look new
I use a small coating of Blue RTV silicone on the both sides of the new WP gasket.
With a new set of bolts I use Loctite PTFE pipe sealant on the bolts, this effectively seals the bolts from corrosion in the block and the silicone adds an extra measure to protect the gasket from leaking to the bolts.
No problems yet and a WP removal after 2 years is easy, and the bolts look new
10-26-2008, 09:34 PM
#54
Drifting
FWIW the Laso pump on mine seems to be fine after 28K miles. I think the concerns over the quality of the casting process on the Laso pumps are valid because it's obviously a less expensive form of manufacturing which would naturally lead one to wonder if other corners had been cut. I said previously, I'm all for more options. I'd try one.
The one question that no one seems to ask is why this is such a difficult issue for these cars? The basic design of most water pumps has remained the same for decades, even those that are driven by the timing belt. I just wonder why the manufacturers and rebuilders can't seem to get it right with any consistency.
The one question that no one seems to ask is why this is such a difficult issue for these cars? The basic design of most water pumps has remained the same for decades, even those that are driven by the timing belt. I just wonder why the manufacturers and rebuilders can't seem to get it right with any consistency.
10-26-2008, 10:15 PM
#55
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: On my blackberry
Posts: 3,753
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't have any problem with paying $250 - $300 for a new pump with a plastic impeller with an expected lifetime of 6y/60k miles (more-or-less what the factory-installed pumps were). I don't have a problem paying materially more than $120 for a rebuild with beefier parts.
I think I've put in 6 to 8 pumps in the last year. I'd expect about the same next year. So, Roger, with a bit of a track record for a reliable pump, you could count me in for 4 to 6 per year most likely.
I have to say though, that I'm raising an eyebrow at the posters that are only willing to pay a teeny bit more for a better pump. I can only assume that they haven't had to remove two bad rebuilds in the last year and had to fix a block eaten up by metal-impeller. Either that or they consider their own labor to be worth about $5 hour?
I think I've put in 6 to 8 pumps in the last year. I'd expect about the same next year. So, Roger, with a bit of a track record for a reliable pump, you could count me in for 4 to 6 per year most likely.
I have to say though, that I'm raising an eyebrow at the posters that are only willing to pay a teeny bit more for a better pump. I can only assume that they haven't had to remove two bad rebuilds in the last year and had to fix a block eaten up by metal-impeller. Either that or they consider their own labor to be worth about $5 hour?
As to your point about spending money for quality, we do spend the extra to buy brand new (albeit OEM, not Porsche) over rebuilt, because of several bad rebuilt experiences. $150 more, to be exact. Ouch.
Unfortunately, as we have recently discovered, it turns out that some of those German built pumps aren't necessarily 100% reliable either. A brand new water pump has already cost us one engine this year. It needs to be completely rebuilt now. (Idiot light never lit up, temp gauge never rose.
)But it starts getting really scary when they have play on the impeller shaft when brand new out of the box. How long can a water pump be expected to last if it has play when new? There shouldn't be any lateral motion of the impeller or pulley, at all, new out of the box, right? Or am I wrong about that?
FWIW the Laso pump on mine seems to be fine after 28K miles. I think the concerns over the quality of the casting process on the Laso pumps are valid because it's obviously a less expensive form of manufacturing which would naturally lead one to wonder if other corners had been cut. I said previously, I'm all for more options. I'd try one.
The one question that no one seems to ask is why this is such a difficult issue for these cars? The basic design of most water pumps has remained the same for decades, even those that are driven by the timing belt. I just wonder why the manufacturers and rebuilders can't seem to get it right with any consistency.
The one question that no one seems to ask is why this is such a difficult issue for these cars? The basic design of most water pumps has remained the same for decades, even those that are driven by the timing belt. I just wonder why the manufacturers and rebuilders can't seem to get it right with any consistency.
10-26-2008, 10:16 PM
#56
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
The company I used here is Monarch rebuilding in London Ontario Canada i can get you the number if u like they did the work for me about 5 yrs ago. They said that the seal and bearing in the water pump for these cars are the cheapest ones available. They cut down the backside of the impeller and put a thicker bearing and higher quality seal thier comment was that the pump should outlast the car if it fails bring it back and they will replace it np, they were very surprised that porsche would use materials so cheap when the difference in quality parts was less than $10. The only thing extra I did was to put a small dot of tig weld between the impeller and the shaft just for a little added insurance after they machined so much away on the impeller. I would have to check my bill but if I recall the actual price was $72 + taxes, less than 1 hr labour plus parts
paul
paul
Roger I would definitely pay extra to get a pump that proves reliable over the life span of a T-Belt. Unfortunately for you I won't be voting with my wallet for another 3 years so my vote doesn't mean much at this point.
10-26-2008, 11:43 PM
#57
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Gone. On the Open Road
Posts: 16,329
Received 1,543 Likes
on
1,007 Posts
Replaced a 14k-mile failed pump on my '91. I'm counting Carl as 2, once to replace the pump when his metal impeller pump failed, and one R&R afterwards to fix the block when, with the new plastic impeller pump, his car wasn't running as cool as it should have. The other 5 were on OPCs (other people's cars.) Hmmm... let see, a 19-year old factory original pump (and t-belt) on a 42k mile '87. Another '87. An '86. And a "just installed with 2000 miles" pump that was wobbly on its pulley on a '89.
Nope. You're right. The only motion should be rotation along the axis of the impeller. And it should have noticeable resistance to rotation; it shouldn't spin freely like a bike's wheel.
There shouldn't be any lateral motion of the impeller or pulley, at all, new out of the box, right? Or am I wrong about that?
10-26-2008, 11:50 PM
#58
Have yet to see one that failed from a plastic impeller. I know for my cars, I'd rather have the plastic impeller fail and not eat in to the block than a metal impeller that does.
10-27-2008, 12:13 AM
#60
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: On my blackberry
Posts: 3,753
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But your reply about lateral movement in the water pump is what I was afraid of. And what Kevin really already knew. It's nice to have confirmation though, because we've never actually checked lateral play in a new water pump until now. Never had a problem with them before. This pump also failed in under approximately 2000 miles.
Got a new pump on Friday but we think this one fails before it has even pumped a drop of water. Kevin didn't like it to begin with because it had a smaller shaft with a bushing on the impeller side, as compared to the last one, though it doesn't spin freely as you describe. It's installed now, but without belt or heads or anything else yet, and just for the heck of it, after he installed it, Kevin gave the pulley a push in the up/down direction, and believes he feels a little bit of play...maybe 1/16th of an inch. Barely noticeable to the eye, but it's definitely there, and he can definitely "feel" it through his fingers.
He's now contemplating pulling it back off and returning it for a replacement. But when the new one comes, he may just leave it in the box.
This motor that is going in right now is not terrific as it is, so we want to be sure that whatever we put on there will not further damage it, because we absolutely need to keep the car rolling until the original motor can be repaired (see my "blown headgakset" thread for details on this drama). The car that this motor came from (our 5 speed, stripped earlier this year) had a rebuilt we put on when we bought it two years ago that was still working just fine, so he's just going to reuse that and the new $400 water pump may very well end up as a paper weight on our desk, if it's of the same quality as this one we just got.
Last edited by Leslie 928 S2; 10-27-2008 at 11:00 AM.