FS: 928 16v Hybrid Engine
06-23-2008, 09:38 AM
#1
Former Vendor
Thread Starter
FS: 928 16v Hybrid Engine
Cross post for non-members who cannot access the members-only classifieds (https://rennlist.com/forums/for-sale-ads-member-to-member-fs-wtb-free/438006-fs-928-16v-hybrid-engine.html)
Asking $6K OBO
Project History
I acquired a 1980 euro-spec 928 back in Feb 2005, with the 4.5L motor. I have been driving it in bone stock form since that time. In mid 2005, I connected with David Lloyd, president of the 928 Owner's Club, and principle in Musante Motorsports out in CT. After much discussion about my plans for the 928, I began developing a high performance replacement motor (details below). In 2006 I went thru a divorce which pretty much killed all of my projects for a couple of years (I own four other water-cooled Porsches: a 924 NA, two 931s, and a 924S).
Two years later, my 931 ultra-wide-body race car project is finally moving again, and the other cars (including the Shark) are all road-worthy and well-sorted. However, the engine replacement project for the Shark is on the back burner for the foreseeable future. While I hate to let go of this motor, my goals and priorities have shifted since I first started down the path in 2005. The 928 runs just fine with its stock 4.5L, and I am at least a year or two a way from being able to tackle the replacement.
Details of the Motor
The short block is a 1985 5.0L acquired in 2005 from 928 International. The top end is a 1980 4.7L euro-spec acquired from a 924board.org member (Colin Jensen) in the Vancouver area, also in 2005. I had the short block and top end shipped to Musante Motorsports. David Lloyd helped me spec out the details. Musante subsequently reconditioned the block, fly cut the pistons for valve clearance, and performed a complete reconditioning of the heads. I have full receipts and documentation from Musante.
This is the exact same configuration that David is running in his track 928. In David's car, the CR is 11:1, which requires high octane + octane booster (or full blown race fuel), and produces in the neighborhood of 350 BHP. It essentially amounts to a 4.7L euro-spec stroker. The best part of this motor is that it is a direct bolt-in to an early chassis. There is no wiring harness conversion required, and the 5.0 block mounts directly into the early chassis. Easy-peasy. This is a complete, ready-to-build, fully-prepped motor, suitable for spirited street driving or a dedicated track car. The only things required to finish the motor are:
- seal & gasket kits for short-block and top-end
- typical tune up components (i.e. plugs, wires, filters, etc.)
- flywheel
- oil pan
- CIS
After consulting with Dave, I opted for the hybrid-stroker approach because it was less expensive and more bolt-in than any of the available supercharger alternatives for the 16v engines. In other words, the biggest bang for the buck without requiring a complete engine+CIS+wiring swap. I planned to re-use the existing CIS setup in my '80 4.5L, so there was no need to source a complete CIS setup. I was also planning to reuse the same flywheel. So for anyone with an early chassis, the only thing required would be the seal kits, tune-up parts, and an oil pan (last I checked, 928 International had pans listed for $100). The engine has been in storage in my climate-controlled garage since 2005, wrapped in plastic sitting in the same crate it was shipped to me in from Musante. It can be shipped since it's still in the original crate; however, it cost me nearly $700 to have it shipped from CT, so I would obviously prefer a local sale.
Ballpark Cost
I have invested ~$6K in acquiring the components and all of the prep work, not including the shipping. The exact figure can be provided and documented to serious inquiries. If anyone is interested, or knows of anyone who might be, please drop me an email (dan DOT beckett AT ideola DOT com) or call my cell phone: 734.679.1310. The crate is in my garage in Plymouth MI, so I can arrange for in-person viewing of the bits for serious inquiries.
Work performed by Musante
Heads
The heads were completely reconditioned:
- tear down & clean up
- inspect guides (Musante determined that the guides were sufficient and did not need replacing)
- three angle complete valve job
- milled to increase compression to 11.0:1
Block
- disassembled
- hot-tanked
- mains were checked and determined that align-honing was not required
- cylinders were finish honed
- pistons had valve reliefs cut to accommodate the 4.7L heads noted above
- rotating assembly was internally balanced (rods, crank, pistons)
As noted above, I have receipts from Musante documenting the work completed.
Asking $6K OBO
Project History
I acquired a 1980 euro-spec 928 back in Feb 2005, with the 4.5L motor. I have been driving it in bone stock form since that time. In mid 2005, I connected with David Lloyd, president of the 928 Owner's Club, and principle in Musante Motorsports out in CT. After much discussion about my plans for the 928, I began developing a high performance replacement motor (details below). In 2006 I went thru a divorce which pretty much killed all of my projects for a couple of years (I own four other water-cooled Porsches: a 924 NA, two 931s, and a 924S).
Two years later, my 931 ultra-wide-body race car project is finally moving again, and the other cars (including the Shark) are all road-worthy and well-sorted. However, the engine replacement project for the Shark is on the back burner for the foreseeable future. While I hate to let go of this motor, my goals and priorities have shifted since I first started down the path in 2005. The 928 runs just fine with its stock 4.5L, and I am at least a year or two a way from being able to tackle the replacement.
Details of the Motor
The short block is a 1985 5.0L acquired in 2005 from 928 International. The top end is a 1980 4.7L euro-spec acquired from a 924board.org member (Colin Jensen) in the Vancouver area, also in 2005. I had the short block and top end shipped to Musante Motorsports. David Lloyd helped me spec out the details. Musante subsequently reconditioned the block, fly cut the pistons for valve clearance, and performed a complete reconditioning of the heads. I have full receipts and documentation from Musante.
This is the exact same configuration that David is running in his track 928. In David's car, the CR is 11:1, which requires high octane + octane booster (or full blown race fuel), and produces in the neighborhood of 350 BHP. It essentially amounts to a 4.7L euro-spec stroker. The best part of this motor is that it is a direct bolt-in to an early chassis. There is no wiring harness conversion required, and the 5.0 block mounts directly into the early chassis. Easy-peasy. This is a complete, ready-to-build, fully-prepped motor, suitable for spirited street driving or a dedicated track car. The only things required to finish the motor are:
- seal & gasket kits for short-block and top-end
- typical tune up components (i.e. plugs, wires, filters, etc.)
- flywheel
- oil pan
- CIS
After consulting with Dave, I opted for the hybrid-stroker approach because it was less expensive and more bolt-in than any of the available supercharger alternatives for the 16v engines. In other words, the biggest bang for the buck without requiring a complete engine+CIS+wiring swap. I planned to re-use the existing CIS setup in my '80 4.5L, so there was no need to source a complete CIS setup. I was also planning to reuse the same flywheel. So for anyone with an early chassis, the only thing required would be the seal kits, tune-up parts, and an oil pan (last I checked, 928 International had pans listed for $100). The engine has been in storage in my climate-controlled garage since 2005, wrapped in plastic sitting in the same crate it was shipped to me in from Musante. It can be shipped since it's still in the original crate; however, it cost me nearly $700 to have it shipped from CT, so I would obviously prefer a local sale.
Ballpark Cost
I have invested ~$6K in acquiring the components and all of the prep work, not including the shipping. The exact figure can be provided and documented to serious inquiries. If anyone is interested, or knows of anyone who might be, please drop me an email (dan DOT beckett AT ideola DOT com) or call my cell phone: 734.679.1310. The crate is in my garage in Plymouth MI, so I can arrange for in-person viewing of the bits for serious inquiries.
Work performed by Musante
Heads
The heads were completely reconditioned:
- tear down & clean up
- inspect guides (Musante determined that the guides were sufficient and did not need replacing)
- three angle complete valve job
- milled to increase compression to 11.0:1
Block
- disassembled
- hot-tanked
- mains were checked and determined that align-honing was not required
- cylinders were finish honed
- pistons had valve reliefs cut to accommodate the 4.7L heads noted above
- rotating assembly was internally balanced (rods, crank, pistons)
As noted above, I have receipts from Musante documenting the work completed.
06-23-2008, 01:00 PM
#2
Rennlist Member
So, this is not a stroker 4.7, its a 5 Liter. the stroke is the same as the early cars, 78.9mm.
so, heads are stock, except a 3 angle valve job and shaved?
intake is euro early (CIS), which narrows down the prospects, unless someone can find the euro 84 intake stuff, then it can mate to all the later 4.7 injection types.
shipping can cost only near $275 if you use DHL for short block alone. with heads, cant be more than an extra $100.
so, heads are stock, except a 3 angle valve job and shaved?
intake is euro early (CIS), which narrows down the prospects, unless someone can find the euro 84 intake stuff, then it can mate to all the later 4.7 injection types.
shipping can cost only near $275 if you use DHL for short block alone. with heads, cant be more than an extra $100.
06-23-2008, 01:57 PM
#3
Former Vendor
Thread Starter
Heads are 4.7L Euro, which AFAIK has different cam profile from the 4.5L. Bear in mind, my original intent was to preserve the bolt-in aspect for an early chassis, as I was (and perhaps still am) planning to replace the 4.5L lump in my 1980 Euro. This option is a good upgrade path for somebody with an early chassis that doesn't want to mess with changing out the entire CIS and engine wiring configuration. Certainly not as compelling for someone with an 85-onward chassis, for which there are more attractive upgrade paths to 32v configurations, to say nothing of SC options.
Based on my research, the approach I pursued is essentially bolt-in for anything up to 1984 model year. However, if one already had the later CIS setup, my understanding is that the K- and L-jet would be pretty much completely interchangeable if you wanted to go with the later setup. My choice was to reuse the earlier setup to avoid the costs of sourcing duplicate CIS components.
The crate that this all came in is pretty massive, probably 3' wide x 4' long x 3' deep. It requires a pallet jack to move it. It is stuffed completely full with not much room for anything else, so I seriously doubt you could fit everything into a smaller package. It might be possible to reduce shipping charges by breaking into smaller pieces and maybe bolting the block onto a pallet. Don't know, this is how it was shipped to me from Musante.
My intent was to photograph everything, but I am currently traveling, and may not have the opportunity to do so until this coming weekend at the earliest. I'll definitely try to make that happen ASAP.
Based on my research, the approach I pursued is essentially bolt-in for anything up to 1984 model year. However, if one already had the later CIS setup, my understanding is that the K- and L-jet would be pretty much completely interchangeable if you wanted to go with the later setup. My choice was to reuse the earlier setup to avoid the costs of sourcing duplicate CIS components.
The crate that this all came in is pretty massive, probably 3' wide x 4' long x 3' deep. It requires a pallet jack to move it. It is stuffed completely full with not much room for anything else, so I seriously doubt you could fit everything into a smaller package. It might be possible to reduce shipping charges by breaking into smaller pieces and maybe bolting the block onto a pallet. Don't know, this is how it was shipped to me from Musante.
My intent was to photograph everything, but I am currently traveling, and may not have the opportunity to do so until this coming weekend at the earliest. I'll definitely try to make that happen ASAP.
06-23-2008, 02:43 PM
#4
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: not where you think I am
Posts: 1,466
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
shipping charges would be near the same for the individual pieces - as one pallet.....most of the time it's according to weight, not overall dims, as the items are dense(heavy). items like fenders, bumper covers and the like, dim out because of size not weight.
Best way to ship is via truck line, dock to dock (pick up at the truck line's dock), or business to business at the very least. Home delivery is more money, requires a lift gate, and more time.
And as always, PUT INSURANCE ON EVERYTHING.
--Russ
Best way to ship is via truck line, dock to dock (pick up at the truck line's dock), or business to business at the very least. Home delivery is more money, requires a lift gate, and more time.
And as always, PUT INSURANCE ON EVERYTHING.
--Russ
06-23-2008, 02:58 PM
#5
Rennlist Member
yes, it is weight. Just shipped a short block and of course my stroker was shipped to me. Both were $270 using DHL shipped from a business to a business. add a couple of heads, near 75lbs and that would add 100 bucks.
mk
mk
shipping charges would be near the same for the individual pieces - as one pallet.....most of the time it's according to weight, not overall dims, as the items are dense(heavy). items like fenders, bumper covers and the like, dim out because of size not weight.
Best way to ship is via truck line, dock to dock (pick up at the truck line's dock), or business to business at the very least. Home delivery is more money, requires a lift gate, and more time.
And as always, PUT INSURANCE ON EVERYTHING.
--Russ
Best way to ship is via truck line, dock to dock (pick up at the truck line's dock), or business to business at the very least. Home delivery is more money, requires a lift gate, and more time.
And as always, PUT INSURANCE ON EVERYTHING.
--Russ
06-23-2008, 03:02 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
its a good path with anyone with a 4.5 or 4.7. there is no need to change anything you would provide, if you are giving them the entire CIS intake. if its just the heads that it doesnt matter. they will bolt on what they have or buy the euro intake stuff that matches their ECU config and its all cookie cutter easy to put it all together. The CIS runners will not work with LJet, nor would the later intake work with the early CIS system. but, if its a transplant, the runners of the existing car could be used. (better to get the euro stuff)
again, its not a stroker though. and yes, the cams from the euro 80 are much better than the US or early 79 2 valve cams. however the 79 cams are close, but just dont have the lift.
Mk
again, its not a stroker though. and yes, the cams from the euro 80 are much better than the US or early 79 2 valve cams. however the 79 cams are close, but just dont have the lift.
Mk
Heads are 4.7L Euro, which AFAIK has different cam profile from the 4.5L. Bear in mind, my original intent was to preserve the bolt-in aspect for an early chassis, as I was (and perhaps still am) planning to replace the 4.5L lump in my 1980 Euro. This option is a good upgrade path for somebody with an early chassis that doesn't want to mess with changing out the entire CIS and engine wiring configuration. Certainly not as compelling for someone with an 85-onward chassis, for which there are more attractive upgrade paths to 32v configurations, to say nothing of SC options.
Based on my research, the approach I pursued is essentially bolt-in for anything up to 1984 model year. However, if one already had the later CIS setup, my understanding is that the K- and L-jet would be pretty much completely interchangeable if you wanted to go with the later setup. My choice was to reuse the earlier setup to avoid the costs of sourcing duplicate CIS components.
The crate that this all came in is pretty massive, probably 3' wide x 4' long x 3' deep. It requires a pallet jack to move it. It is stuffed completely full with not much room for anything else, so I seriously doubt you could fit everything into a smaller package. It might be possible to reduce shipping charges by breaking into smaller pieces and maybe bolting the block onto a pallet. Don't know, this is how it was shipped to me from Musante.
My intent was to photograph everything, but I am currently traveling, and may not have the opportunity to do so until this coming weekend at the earliest. I'll definitely try to make that happen ASAP.
Based on my research, the approach I pursued is essentially bolt-in for anything up to 1984 model year. However, if one already had the later CIS setup, my understanding is that the K- and L-jet would be pretty much completely interchangeable if you wanted to go with the later setup. My choice was to reuse the earlier setup to avoid the costs of sourcing duplicate CIS components.
The crate that this all came in is pretty massive, probably 3' wide x 4' long x 3' deep. It requires a pallet jack to move it. It is stuffed completely full with not much room for anything else, so I seriously doubt you could fit everything into a smaller package. It might be possible to reduce shipping charges by breaking into smaller pieces and maybe bolting the block onto a pallet. Don't know, this is how it was shipped to me from Musante.
My intent was to photograph everything, but I am currently traveling, and may not have the opportunity to do so until this coming weekend at the earliest. I'll definitely try to make that happen ASAP.
06-23-2008, 04:01 PM
#7
Former Vendor
Thread Starter
Not quite sure what you mean when you say "CIS intake"...to be clear, this more than just the two heads and the block. It is EVERYTHING except for the CIS fuel distributor, the flywheel, and the oil pan. So, it includes the entire 4.7L euro intake manifold, TB, all of the plastic covers, tubes, airbox, everything. Which is why the crate is so big, and weighs so much. Trust me, the crate is huge ;-) and it is jam-packed.
Yes, I probably misspoke a bit by saying the equivalent of a 4.7L stroker, as the stroke is not increased, but the displacement is due to the larger 5.0 pistons. Sorry for the confusion.
Yes, I probably misspoke a bit by saying the equivalent of a 4.7L stroker, as the stroke is not increased, but the displacement is due to the larger 5.0 pistons. Sorry for the confusion.
its a good path with anyone with a 4.5 or 4.7. there is no need to change anything you would provide, if you are giving them the entire CIS intake. if its just the heads that it doesnt matter. they will bolt on what they have or buy the euro intake stuff that matches their ECU config and its all cookie cutter easy to put it all together. The CIS runners will not work with LJet, nor would the later intake work with the early CIS system. but, if its a transplant, the runners of the existing car could be used. (better to get the euro stuff)
again, its not a stroker though. and yes, the cams from the euro 80 are much better than the US or early 79 2 valve cams. however the 79 cams are close, but just dont have the lift.
Mk
again, its not a stroker though. and yes, the cams from the euro 80 are much better than the US or early 79 2 valve cams. however the 79 cams are close, but just dont have the lift.
Mk
Trending Topics
06-23-2008, 04:22 PM
#8
Race Car
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: No where Oklahoma AKA "The Dust Bowl" In The Arm pit Of Hell
Posts: 3,663
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'd love to do this but an extra 6k into an 81 seems like throwing money to the wind and would be better put to an S4 or something newer. my 2 cents.
06-23-2008, 04:47 PM
#9
Former Vendor
Thread Starter
I considered a lot of options before plunging down this path. Decent S4s routinely hover around the $20K mark, at least on eBay (disclaimer: I've never bought one, so I can't comment on what they actually sell for...). On the other hand, I picked up a California (read: clean and well maintained) 1980 Euro spec for $3200. Add my ~$6K of engine development cost, plus another $1K for seals, ignition, new injectors, etc., and you're still at roughly half the cost of an S4, with very competitive performance numbers. Keep in mind, this is a full Euro spec motor, not a US, so the higher output numbers are in play (target of 350 BHP). My rationale was that for ~$10K I could have a car that rivaled the performance of a $20K+ car...I always kind of like being the underdog, so taking an early example and making it go as fast as a more modern variant for half the cost seemed like a lot of fun...
I can't argue with the more modern amenities of an S4, other than to say that in my case, I like the quirks and charms of the earlier forms (four of my five water-cooled pcars are between 1980-81 ... call me masochistic!). The other significant factor is (as I noted in the opening post), there really aren't any viable bolt on options for super-charging or dramatically increasing the output of the 16v motors. If 16v is your game, based on my research, this was overall the least costly path toward achieving peak performance.
I guess it boils down to different strokes (no pun intended!) for different folks. If I end up not getting any offers between now and the time I can get back to the project, I'll just complete it at that time. In the meantime, it seems a shame to have the motor just sitting in a crate, just itching to burn up some rubber and generate some grins :-D
I can't argue with the more modern amenities of an S4, other than to say that in my case, I like the quirks and charms of the earlier forms (four of my five water-cooled pcars are between 1980-81 ... call me masochistic!). The other significant factor is (as I noted in the opening post), there really aren't any viable bolt on options for super-charging or dramatically increasing the output of the 16v motors. If 16v is your game, based on my research, this was overall the least costly path toward achieving peak performance.
I guess it boils down to different strokes (no pun intended!) for different folks. If I end up not getting any offers between now and the time I can get back to the project, I'll just complete it at that time. In the meantime, it seems a shame to have the motor just sitting in a crate, just itching to burn up some rubber and generate some grins :-D
06-23-2008, 04:58 PM
#10
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Wilbraham, MA
Posts: 2,758
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Generally a good upgrade for a track car, or perhaps someone who has a really nice pre S4 (ie: interior, body, etc.).
P.S. David Lloyd is the 928 OC membership chair, and an excellent one at that
P.S. David Lloyd is the 928 OC membership chair, and an excellent one at that
06-23-2008, 05:46 PM
#12
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Wilbraham, MA
Posts: 2,758
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
06-23-2008, 05:57 PM
#13
Race Car
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: No where Oklahoma AKA "The Dust Bowl" In The Arm pit Of Hell
Posts: 3,663
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree Stan. I'm not sure if he realizes that those are few and far between. Your more likely to find one closer to 10K in average condition. I will concede after looking a bit closer that there are quite a few close the the 20K mark on ebay.
06-23-2008, 07:15 PM
#14
Former Vendor
Thread Starter
Current asking prices for an S4, based on my quick, unscientific survey of Craigslist, JaXeD, eBay, AutoTrader, and other sources anywhere from $9,5K all the way up to $30K. As I noted earlier, I don't know the actual selling prices.
It's probably worth noting that I bought the 80 Euro with the intent to drive it "as is". When I started investigating ways to make the car that I had faster and more enjoyable, this approach seemed to be the most reasonable at the time. The point is not to think about this as starting from scratch, as in "what's the biggest bang for the buck you could get in a 928"...but rather, if have an early (pre-85) car to begin with, what's the best alternative for making it faster. I still think this route makes a lot of sense, given those constraints.
It's probably worth noting that I bought the 80 Euro with the intent to drive it "as is". When I started investigating ways to make the car that I had faster and more enjoyable, this approach seemed to be the most reasonable at the time. The point is not to think about this as starting from scratch, as in "what's the biggest bang for the buck you could get in a 928"...but rather, if have an early (pre-85) car to begin with, what's the best alternative for making it faster. I still think this route makes a lot of sense, given those constraints.
06-23-2008, 07:27 PM
#15
Race Car
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: No where Oklahoma AKA "The Dust Bowl" In The Arm pit Of Hell
Posts: 3,663
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I fully agree with you that i'd love to have this motor in my OB. Your arguement is valid. I've always said even before I bought this car that if the motor goes it's getting an LS1 chebby motor. I won't even mess with 4.5 motors. I can't imagine the performance of the 928 with a LS1 in it. Such a lite car with so much power must be awesome. My 98 Trans Am has an LS1 in it and it's just plain wicked.