RyanPerrella

Since this has become an interesting subject of mine in the past couple weeks and since ive now heard of another guy planning on doing this and yet others suggest there be a thread on it, here is it.

I would love to cover all the modifications that would be required to run E85, Everything from fuel tank, to fuel pump,s lines, injectors, fuel mapping changes, any internal changes that are suggested such as SS valves, exhaust catalysts so on and so forth.

The idea spurned to me from reading about turbocharged E85 engines which would allow you to take advantage of the 100 octane rating of the fuel to bump up boost to overcome the fuel's reduced energy output over gasoline.

I want to know what it takes to make this happen to a stock car, and what would be suggested if you were going with a blower (Like Brendan) or possibly a Twin Turbo which you could adjust the boost on such as was my idea.

If you know about the fuel and its requirements please respond. If you dont know and have no experience with it, please limit your posts to questions. I would like to hear from people that KNOW what they are doing. I would also like to not ever hear turbo v supercharger or gasoline v E85.

ALSO: Please keep the political comments ie: environmental issues OUT of this thread. I don't want to hear about climate change and global warming and such in here. I want this to be a strictly factual thread and not hear opinion. Leave that for OT forum. JUST THE FACTS PLEASE!

First thing I want to know for you CA guys, what does E85 cost right now the last time you saw it, and what does 91 octane cost? 93 in Texas is about $3.40-$3.50, but i would imagine its more in CA.

RyanPerrella

Brendan, I would love to hear what your doing with your car HERE. Your handy with the camera, if you have any interesting pics to go along with your descriptions i know i for one would love to see them.

Cost is also an issue with this conversion, as I wouldn't suggest you convert your car to run E85 to save money. I could see the conversion itself costing over $5000, so that doesn't make much sense if your goal is to save money. Prices of components should also be discussed and compared with gasoline as well whenever possible.

hacker-pschorr

Might not be an issue in Texas, but in other areas E85 will slip to lower levels of ethanol for colder times of the year.


Another good thread on the topic:

http://www.ffcobra.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178726

BC

The Vince Lombardi on this issue is:

The "E" in E85 is Ethanol. Ethanol is an ethyl alcohol. In its pure form, I guess you can drink it. Fuel ethanol is denatured with gasoline to make it un-drinkable. E85 stands for 85 percent ethanol, 15 percent gasoline (probably low-octane)

It is a straight-chain alcohol and its molecular formula is variously represented as EtOH, CH3CH2OH, C2H5OH or as its empirical formula C2H6O (which it shares with dimethyl ether).

Combustion of ethanol forms carbon dioxide and water:

C2H5OH(g) + 3 O2(g) → 2 CO2(g) + 3 H2O(l) (ΔHr = −1409 kJ/mol[13])

Gee, so do we when we breath.


This fuel type is currently under fire because the easiest way to make ethanol is with corn - the fermentation of the sugars with heat starts the process, the rest has something to do with separation and "drying".

Without getting political in this forum, Corn is not the only way to make this. Any biomass of a certain category can make ethanol, and much more efficiently than with Corn. But as always happens, any time you connect a commodity with energy production, you get greed, short sightedness, and profiteering. Just look at the middle east. As I have mentioned before, 100 years ago they were living in tents, tending thier camel herds, and when the oil runs out in 100 years, they will be back doing the same, there is no other worth in that society other than oil.

Back on track,


BUT, since everyone is on "global warming" they have ignored the true cleanliness of the fuel - which is the great reductions in "bad stuff" emissions. C02 is not bad. We exhale it all the time.

So the real octane number of E85 specifically is around 108. But its dynamic octane number, which people refer to as the ability of the fuel to qwell detonation in its applied use, factoring in its cooling affect (latent head to vaporisation) and its cool burning characteristics, is much higher.

It is, essentially, cheap, clean race gas.

But you need more of it. It does not contain as much BTU energy per unit as gasoline. This is true because it is an oxygenated fuel, meaning it has oxygen attached to it in many places. So you need to burn MORE of it to make ka stoich reaction. A "Stoich" AFR of E85 is around 9.7:1. A FAT, or rich mixture can go down to 6:1 while still gaining torque. You have ALOT more mass in the combustion chamber now, so you need a way to get it out - there is simply More fuel in the same space.

Its corrosion characteristics many times will get confused with methanol, which is nasty. If you drink methanol, you die. If you drink Ethanol in small quantities without gas in it, you are considered a social drinker.

It does absorb water, which affects the metals it sits in. It is polar, and can conduct electricity - so corrosion starts on bare steel, and bare aluminum. If you coat them with nickel or anodize them, or even powdercoat them, there will be no problem.

Ethanol does not lubricate. But with the gas in it, it does okay. Its a bit hard to start at very low temps. Winter blends of ethanol in the great tundra of green bay for instance, will be E70. 30% gas to make the car light off easier. Where I am, I will not have to tune for this.

As I said, the corrosion issues with E85 are WAY overblown, as is much on the internet. Its benefits far outweigh its demerits.

You can run huge boost, It doesn't heat up the pistons and valves as much as regular gas, and you can advance timing to nearly NA figures without pre-ignition or denotation problems.

My changes were easy - I am building the fuel system from the ground up. Everything is bigger, and will be good for 100% ethanol - teflon inner ID SS lines, SS hard lines, coated Al fuel rails, and REALLY big injectors. The tank is custom, but I have to decide what the best way to protect the aluminum will be.

teflon and viton are the best seal types.








mixed with 15% gasoline to "denature" it, and goes further to provide

BC

You will not save money doing this, except maybe over the long run if oil keeps going up and starts to get sketchy - you can make ethanol in your back yard.

The 928 fuel system is not that bad for this. Rubber lines will absorb the alcohol, making them degrade. The plastic tank is the biggest issue. I don't think it would do well. Its 20 year old plastic in the first place.

RyanPerrella

Thats a very good thread Hacker

I dont think this is the solution for me. The points raised about it are very interesting. The fact the CA has only 3-6 stations in the entire state is startling to me. California which is so forward thinking hardly onboard. I know Arnold loves hydrogen, maybe thats a better solution. I bet there are more hydrogen stations in CA then E85 due to the Governor's plans and the fact that Honda is releasing its FCX Clarity sometime this year or next.

I would prefer that E85 was made with sugarcane ala Brazil, AKA "Alcool"

Seems the overall impact of E85 is larger then first thought.

Back to the topic at hand, lets just cover what has to be done and should anyone reading be interested in doing it to a 928 then hopefully they can use this thread as a means of achieving that.

BC

I was trying to make sure to steer this thread away from that. The "impact" is not large at all. FUEL costs have driven up corn costs, not the fact that MORE corn is being made for ethanol. And its just a quick way of making it. Switch grass is nearly online, and cellulosic or whatever its called is in major testing.

It does NOT take as much water and energy to make a gallon of ethanol as it does a gallon of gas.

To get past this you may need to realize that green house gases are the least of our concerns. Benzine in the water table, particulates in the air, and (unrelated) psychotic drug residue in our water systems is the real concern. "carbon emissions" is something that needs to be laid to rest. They have no idea.

If you want to focus on it using too much corn, and the runnoff from that fertilization increase - thats fine - but thats happening anyway, and needs to be fixed somehow. Blaming ethanol is something that was started by the oil people when they see a threat.

BC

Also, CA is behind because we don't have as much supply. But two more stations are opening up in north county, and we already have a solid one in central San Diego.

You can also order it by the barrel and just keep it in your garage.

BC

This is what I want to avoid in THIS thread.

It is NOT less power. You can create MORE power when you design at least the tuning, at most the entire engine around the fuel.

Higher static compression. MORE boost. MORE timing.

This higher carbon emissions thing is just crap. There is no carbon buildup in an engine running ethanol. It is a really clean engine - no carbon on the valves, etc.

BC

I have to disagree Erik. That was in no way a good thread. It was/is a **** fest between uneducated (on this subject) people with a good dose of conjecture.

RyanPerrella

Brendan,

Funny you quoted that guy's response in that thread, i thought that was pretty concise and to the point. I have heard the argument before that if farmers start turning their crops into fuel factories they aren't making food anymore and a $5 tomatoe would **** me off more then a $5 gallon of gasoline.

We are going OT here and i guess it should be up to the reader to decide wether or not they think E85 is the way to go. Lets just assume everyone interested in this thread loves E85 and wants to make their 928 run on it.

Lets tell them what they need to do to make that happen.

RyanPerrella

I heard mention of coating fuel tanks with that POR 15 stuff. I assume for steel or metal tanks. Is there any type of coating you could put on the inside of the fuel bladder to make it compatible.

The 928's fuel tank is quite elegant and i would hate to loose it for a generic SS box sitting somewhere under the car. I also imagine making a new one of these would be incredibly expensive if you used an E85 friendly plastic.

Stromius

Great thread...E85 will hopefully be more prelevant. I have yet to see E85 in the Seattle area.

Glad to see Brasil mentioned. Alcool was selling for 1R/L and gasoline 2R/L when I was there last in Sao Paulo. I also had to help a friend bump start a Passat with alcool near 40F...lots of fun. Pure alcohol obviously has cold start issues.

With 91 octane at $3.89-3.99 in my neighborhood, a E85 becomes realistic if there is some payoff be it 3-5 years for this conversion and the E85 cost/gal is significantly lower than gas.

The Cobra thread has mention of $2000 in parts. Is this your experience Brendan? Realizing you're doing it while you're at it kinda thing but I suspect that my 20 yo injectors, tank, and fuel lines will need replacing sooner than later, it would be great to have a shopping list on this conversion.

Thanks!

BC

Fair enough. My point is this: look at the "impact on the environment" between getting a barrel of crude out of the ground in the ME, shipped, refined, and into your gas tank (and its non-renewable) and look at the same process for some corn or grass or other biomass, turned into ethanol, (from our own country) into the same gas tank. Add in what happens after it is burned.

Tidbit - Redline oils mades an "alchohol additive" that you can put in your tank to add some lubricity if that is a concern.

http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?fo...action=product

BC

My custom al tank will cost about 300 bucks. Figure another 300 to coat the inside with something to make it indifferent to any alcohol.

I am buying very a very good pump and FPR from weldon, and its pricey, but could probably handle sulfuric acid running through them - they are very robust and are good for even nitromethane. Thats about 1400, but thats because of my power goals.

That brings up a point - if you are not boosting, or are not trying out for the big-ego-dyno-chart game, then this is not needed. Regular premium 93 octane gas will do.

But outside those parameters, the ethanol makes sense (to me).

With a good fuel additive like the one mentioned, I think normal injectors are fine, but for big power, with the need for more fuel, you need big ones. I don't think the 72s I bought are big enough - I will probably sell them and get 120s or 160s.