THE OFFICIAL: E85 Fuel Conversion Thread
01-07-2012, 12:21 AM
#93
Man of many SIGs
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
When doing an E85 conversion it has been reccomended that we change all of the rubber components in our fuel systems. Fuel lines with a viton liner will work well for the flexible lines. Some say that the hard lines need to be stainless but there are a few 951 guys who have been using E85 in stock hard lines for up to 5 years so far without any problems. One of the components that I wondered about was the plastic fuel tank. If a custom stainless tank was required it would be a very involved fabrication process. One that I don't really want to have to tackle if I don't have to and one that is beyond the scope of most people. I decided to test the stock 928 fuel tank for ethanol compatability.
It's been over a year since I began testing the fuel tank for compatability with E85. The tank has seen ZERO ill effects from the E85. It hasn't softened or become brittle. It is just as it was when I dropped it into a mason jar full of E85 in December 2010. The E85 did not become discolored. It remained crystal clear.
Around April 2010 I put a new piece of fuel injection hose into the E85 to see if it would soften. Within a week the E85 began to turn brown, then black. The color was leeching out of the hose. I thought that the next step would be that the rubber would soften. IT HASN'T. The hose is exactly the same hardness that it was before I put it in the E85 over 8 months ago. I left half of the hose sticking out of the E85. It looks and feels exactly the same as the part that is submerged. In fact, it is so unaffected that the other day while checking the hose for deterioration I dropped it on the floor by mistake. I picked it up and when I went to stick it back into the E85 I couldn't determine which side was supposed to be in the ethanol. I finally smelled the ends of the hose and figured it out immediately. If it wasn't for the smell I would have had to guess. I was filming this to post here so once I edit the video you will get to see this.
I've decided to do additional fuel component testing. The hose that goes from the fuel tank outlet to the fuel pump inlet as well as the seal that seals the screw in tank outlet adapter are now taking an ethanol bath.
The hose was a good used one that I took off of a car I parted out. It should be indicative of the hoses on most peoples cars that might want to do this conversion. The seal isn't that important to be ethanol resistant becasue it can be easily replaced with a Viton oring. But I had it lying around ( new ) and decided I would test it in the interest of science.
I'll post the video once I get a chance to look at it and edit it down to a reasonable length. I tend to ramble
It's been over a year since I began testing the fuel tank for compatability with E85. The tank has seen ZERO ill effects from the E85. It hasn't softened or become brittle. It is just as it was when I dropped it into a mason jar full of E85 in December 2010. The E85 did not become discolored. It remained crystal clear.
Around April 2010 I put a new piece of fuel injection hose into the E85 to see if it would soften. Within a week the E85 began to turn brown, then black. The color was leeching out of the hose. I thought that the next step would be that the rubber would soften. IT HASN'T. The hose is exactly the same hardness that it was before I put it in the E85 over 8 months ago. I left half of the hose sticking out of the E85. It looks and feels exactly the same as the part that is submerged. In fact, it is so unaffected that the other day while checking the hose for deterioration I dropped it on the floor by mistake. I picked it up and when I went to stick it back into the E85 I couldn't determine which side was supposed to be in the ethanol. I finally smelled the ends of the hose and figured it out immediately. If it wasn't for the smell I would have had to guess. I was filming this to post here so once I edit the video you will get to see this.
I've decided to do additional fuel component testing. The hose that goes from the fuel tank outlet to the fuel pump inlet as well as the seal that seals the screw in tank outlet adapter are now taking an ethanol bath.
The hose was a good used one that I took off of a car I parted out. It should be indicative of the hoses on most peoples cars that might want to do this conversion. The seal isn't that important to be ethanol resistant becasue it can be easily replaced with a Viton oring. But I had it lying around ( new ) and decided I would test it in the interest of science.I'll post the video once I get a chance to look at it and edit it down to a reasonable length. I tend to ramble
Last edited by Fabio421; 01-07-2012 at 12:45 PM.
01-07-2012, 12:35 AM
#94
Great!
01-07-2012, 01:55 PM
#95
Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Good information Fabio, thanks for posting.
My only comments are relative to your testing. Having the hoses, seals, etc., just sitting in static E85 is not nearly the same as the conditions these parts will be exposed to (heat, high pressure, fuel flowing, etc.). Materials can have a significant, exponential, deterioration rate when subjected to real world environmental conditions. Not sure I am yet willing to believe E85 is benign on older fuel systems.
I tend to overdo/over-engineer/over-repair things so as to minimize future issues. Most of this behavior is totally unnecessary but not unusual for a person like me with a sphincter capable of taking a bite out of the seat cushion I sit upon (same as **** retentive).
Thanks again for your ongoing study. It helps further the knowledge.
My only comments are relative to your testing. Having the hoses, seals, etc., just sitting in static E85 is not nearly the same as the conditions these parts will be exposed to (heat, high pressure, fuel flowing, etc.). Materials can have a significant, exponential, deterioration rate when subjected to real world environmental conditions. Not sure I am yet willing to believe E85 is benign on older fuel systems.
I tend to overdo/over-engineer/over-repair things so as to minimize future issues. Most of this behavior is totally unnecessary but not unusual for a person like me with a sphincter capable of taking a bite out of the seat cushion I sit upon (same as **** retentive).
Thanks again for your ongoing study. It helps further the knowledge.
When doing an E85 conversion it has been reccomended that we change all of the rubber components in our fuel systems. Fuel lines with a viton liner will work well for the flexible lines. Some say that the hard lines need to be stainless but there are a few 951 guys who have been using E85 in stock hard lines for up to 5 years so far without any problems. One of the components that I wondered about was the plastic fuel tank. If a custom stainless tank was required it would be a very involved fabrication process. One that I don't really want to have to tackle if I don't have to and one that is beyond the scope of most people. I decided to test the stock 928 fuel tank for ethanol compatability.
It's been over a year since I began testing the fuel tank for compatability with E85. The tank has seen ZERO ill effects from the E85. It hasn't softened or become brittle. It is just as it was when I dropped it into a mason jar full of E85 in December 2010. The E85 did not become discolored. It remained crystal clear.
Around April 2010 I put a new piece of fuel injection hose into the E85 to see if it would soften. Within a week the E85 began to turn brown, then black. The color was leeching out of the hose. I thought that the next step would be that the rubber would soften. IT HASN'T. The hose is exactly the same hardness that it was before I put it in the E85 over 8 months ago. I left half of the hose sticking out of the E85. It looks and feels exactly the same as the part that is submerged. In fact, it is so unaffected that the other day while checking the hose for deterioration I dropped it on the floor by mistake. I picked it up and when I went to stick it back into the E85 I couldn't determine which side was supposed to be in the ethanol. I finally smelled the ends of the hose and figured it out immediately. If it wasn't for the smell I would have had to guess. I was filming this to post here so once I edit the video you will get to see this.
I've decided to do additional fuel component testing. The hose that goes from the fuel tank outlet to the fuel pump inlet as well as the seal that seals the screw in tank outlet adapter are now taking an ethanol bath. The hose was a good used one that I took off of a car I parted out. It should be indicative of the hoses on most peoples cars that might want to do this conversion. The seal isn't that important to be ethanol resistant becasue it can be easily replaced with a Viton oring. But I had it lying around ( new ) and decided I would test it in the interest of science.
I'll post the video once I get a chance to look at it and edit it down to a reasonable length. I tend to ramble
It's been over a year since I began testing the fuel tank for compatability with E85. The tank has seen ZERO ill effects from the E85. It hasn't softened or become brittle. It is just as it was when I dropped it into a mason jar full of E85 in December 2010. The E85 did not become discolored. It remained crystal clear.
Around April 2010 I put a new piece of fuel injection hose into the E85 to see if it would soften. Within a week the E85 began to turn brown, then black. The color was leeching out of the hose. I thought that the next step would be that the rubber would soften. IT HASN'T. The hose is exactly the same hardness that it was before I put it in the E85 over 8 months ago. I left half of the hose sticking out of the E85. It looks and feels exactly the same as the part that is submerged. In fact, it is so unaffected that the other day while checking the hose for deterioration I dropped it on the floor by mistake. I picked it up and when I went to stick it back into the E85 I couldn't determine which side was supposed to be in the ethanol. I finally smelled the ends of the hose and figured it out immediately. If it wasn't for the smell I would have had to guess. I was filming this to post here so once I edit the video you will get to see this.
I've decided to do additional fuel component testing. The hose that goes from the fuel tank outlet to the fuel pump inlet as well as the seal that seals the screw in tank outlet adapter are now taking an ethanol bath.
The hose was a good used one that I took off of a car I parted out. It should be indicative of the hoses on most peoples cars that might want to do this conversion. The seal isn't that important to be ethanol resistant becasue it can be easily replaced with a Viton oring. But I had it lying around ( new ) and decided I would test it in the interest of science.I'll post the video once I get a chance to look at it and edit it down to a reasonable length. I tend to ramble
01-07-2012, 05:08 PM
#96
Best practices would require flouro- whatever bases fuel hoses. But it seems that the aluminum pieces may not be as seriously affected as thought.
01-07-2012, 06:13 PM
#97
Man of many SIGs
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Good information Fabio, thanks for posting.
My only comments are relative to your testing. Having the hoses, seals, etc., just sitting in static E85 is not nearly the same as the conditions these parts will be exposed to (heat, high pressure, fuel flowing, etc.). Materials can have a significant, exponential, deterioration rate when subjected to real world environmental conditions. Not sure I am yet willing to believe E85 is benign on older fuel systems.
I tend to overdo/over-engineer/over-repair things so as to minimize future issues. Most of this behavior is totally unnecessary but not unusual for a person like me with a sphincter capable of taking a bite out of the seat cushion I sit upon (same as **** retentive).
Thanks again for your ongoing study. It helps further the knowledge.
My only comments are relative to your testing. Having the hoses, seals, etc., just sitting in static E85 is not nearly the same as the conditions these parts will be exposed to (heat, high pressure, fuel flowing, etc.). Materials can have a significant, exponential, deterioration rate when subjected to real world environmental conditions. Not sure I am yet willing to believe E85 is benign on older fuel systems.
I tend to overdo/over-engineer/over-repair things so as to minimize future issues. Most of this behavior is totally unnecessary but not unusual for a person like me with a sphincter capable of taking a bite out of the seat cushion I sit upon (same as **** retentive).
Thanks again for your ongoing study. It helps further the knowledge.
01-07-2012, 08:40 PM
#98
Instructor
I have to pay attention on this thread... All Brazilian gasoline has between 22,5% and 27% of ethanol (it's a law down here) - more ethanol than E85. Our gasoline stoichiometric rate is 11 instead of 14,7 for regular gasoline. But our fuel has between 98 to 107 octanes due to ethanol blend. Fuel specification changed here in mid 80's (many ears after my car's birth) so I have to think what I have to do, because my car will probably run leaner.
01-07-2012, 10:10 PM
#99
Just as a correction- e85 stands for 85% ethanol and 15% petrol.
01-08-2012, 07:28 AM
#100
Instructor
09-17-2013, 09:37 AM
#101
Rennlist Member
So, what's the E85 prognosis, 5 years in? As BC said in this thread, looks like cheap race fuel to me! I found several links online of people running E85 in all sorts of cars with zero issues, other than the occasional CEL. One dude's truck stalled, but that's probably because his fuel system wasn't clean and the uber clean ethanol loosened some gunk.
Here's an interesting example:
http://www.openfuelstandard.org/2012...h-alcohol.html
I'm considering this for my car since I'm catless. That, however, doesn't really seem to matter. I have bigger injectors on hand I can swap in (42 lbs) and its easy enough to advance the timing to compensate (but how much?).
As the OP said, please no political comments about gas vs. corngas.
Here's an interesting example:
http://www.openfuelstandard.org/2012...h-alcohol.html
I'm considering this for my car since I'm catless. That, however, doesn't really seem to matter. I have bigger injectors on hand I can swap in (42 lbs) and its easy enough to advance the timing to compensate (but how much?).
As the OP said, please no political comments about gas vs. corngas.
09-17-2013, 10:05 AM
#102
Man of many SIGs
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Good information Fabio, thanks for posting.
My only comments are relative to your testing. Having the hoses, seals, etc., just sitting in static E85 is not nearly the same as the conditions these parts will be exposed to (heat, high pressure, fuel flowing, etc.). Materials can have a significant, exponential, deterioration rate when subjected to real world environmental conditions. Not sure I am yet willing to believe E85 is benign on older fuel systems.
I tend to overdo/over-engineer/over-repair things so as to minimize future issues. Most of this behavior is totally unnecessary but not unusual for a person like me with a sphincter capable of taking a bite out of the seat cushion I sit upon (same as **** retentive).
Thanks again for your ongoing study. It helps further the knowledge.
My only comments are relative to your testing. Having the hoses, seals, etc., just sitting in static E85 is not nearly the same as the conditions these parts will be exposed to (heat, high pressure, fuel flowing, etc.). Materials can have a significant, exponential, deterioration rate when subjected to real world environmental conditions. Not sure I am yet willing to believe E85 is benign on older fuel systems.
I tend to overdo/over-engineer/over-repair things so as to minimize future issues. Most of this behavior is totally unnecessary but not unusual for a person like me with a sphincter capable of taking a bite out of the seat cushion I sit upon (same as **** retentive).
Thanks again for your ongoing study. It helps further the knowledge.
My car is now in pieces and the Flex-Fuel conversion is in full swing. It should be on the road in a few weeks. I'll report back once that happens.
09-17-2013, 12:21 PM
#104
I just re-read your concerns and realized that I missed something the first time around. The parts that I tested were parts that are not easily replaceable with modern, E85 compatible parts. The fuel tank and specially shaped fuel hose that goes from the tank to the pump. Neither of these parts see pressure and very little heat. The injection hoses do see pressure but those are easily replaced with modern hose that is compatible with E-85.
My car is now in pieces and the Flex-Fuel conversion is in full swing. It should be on the road in a few weeks. I'll report back once that happens.
My car is now in pieces and the Flex-Fuel conversion is in full swing. It should be on the road in a few weeks. I'll report back once that happens.
09-17-2013, 12:24 PM
#105
