Left tie rod into rack -- lefty loosie?
02-23-2008, 02:21 AM
#16
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Thanks guys!
So, i cheated and borrowed the CT Automotive tool as Bill showed above. it was REALLY on there! I thought the tool was going to break and it snapped and the tie rod shot out. the "tapping with the hammers on the sides" technique was not going to cut it. i think the tie rod was heard laughing at me
I was able to count the threads and matched them on the new part. right now im about 1/8" toe out, and we will see after i drive it how it looks with the new part. Im killing my inside tire edge, and dont know if its camber or toe out.
So, the ball joint it supposed to be torqued to 100ft-lbs. i used a couple of open end wrenches 32 and 20mm. I hope its tight, i tightened them with all i got and then put the dust cover on.
my question is the tie rod nut. how do you know when that 19mm nut is tight enough or the tie rod end is seated in the press fit?
mk
So, i cheated and borrowed the CT Automotive tool as Bill showed above. it was REALLY on there! I thought the tool was going to break and it snapped and the tie rod shot out. the "tapping with the hammers on the sides" technique was not going to cut it. i think the tie rod was heard laughing at me
I was able to count the threads and matched them on the new part. right now im about 1/8" toe out, and we will see after i drive it how it looks with the new part. Im killing my inside tire edge, and dont know if its camber or toe out.
So, the ball joint it supposed to be torqued to 100ft-lbs. i used a couple of open end wrenches 32 and 20mm. I hope its tight, i tightened them with all i got and then put the dust cover on.
my question is the tie rod nut. how do you know when that 19mm nut is tight enough or the tie rod end is seated in the press fit?
mk
02-23-2008, 02:52 AM
#17
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You mean the balljoint nut? It's supposed to be 47 ft lbs. If you can't get a torque wrench on it, estimate it. The balljoint nut may not snug, but just spin the balljoint. If it does, use a prybar under the bottom of the balljoint to lever it up into the steering arm on the hub, while you snug the nut. It will stop spinning and snug up.
Is this 1/8th total (both sides) over 18" wheel diameter?
Counting threads is not very accurate. You could off a 1/4 turn, and that could be a 1/4 degree.
Is this 1/8th total (both sides) over 18" wheel diameter?
Counting threads is not very accurate. You could off a 1/4 turn, and that could be a 1/4 degree.
02-23-2008, 12:52 PM
#18
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Im talking about the nut or fitting that screws into the steering rack, i was just able to tighten it down as hard as i could with a thin 32mm and counter hold 22mm.
the one im mainly concerned with is the nut on the top of the tie rod. I couldnt get torque wrench on it, but as it snugs up, its hard to figure out hot tight it should be as it has some pretty good resistance as the tie rod end moves into the tappered fit hole. It looks ok, but that nut looks kind of whimpy. the old nut was solid and bigger, the new nut has cuts for a safety wire (clip), so it doesnt have very many threads to engage.
Total toe out was 1/8" thats using 19" rim points. front of the rims are 71 1/4 " and the rear of the rim is 71 1/8". so, 1/16" per side which works to .19degrees toed in or 11 mins toed in. (22min total toe, .36 degrees total toe)
I dont think that is a big problem. However, in looking at my bump steer, i bet now that im at 108mm ride hight, my inside wheel on hard turns, is really fighting the turn in fulll droop (assuming that the drooping wheel toes in as it drops) maybe that could be the reason for the "push " i have had over the last season. Time for a bump steer kit????
mk
the one im mainly concerned with is the nut on the top of the tie rod. I couldnt get torque wrench on it, but as it snugs up, its hard to figure out hot tight it should be as it has some pretty good resistance as the tie rod end moves into the tappered fit hole. It looks ok, but that nut looks kind of whimpy. the old nut was solid and bigger, the new nut has cuts for a safety wire (clip), so it doesnt have very many threads to engage.
Total toe out was 1/8" thats using 19" rim points. front of the rims are 71 1/4 " and the rear of the rim is 71 1/8". so, 1/16" per side which works to .19degrees toed in or 11 mins toed in. (22min total toe, .36 degrees total toe)
I dont think that is a big problem. However, in looking at my bump steer, i bet now that im at 108mm ride hight, my inside wheel on hard turns, is really fighting the turn in fulll droop (assuming that the drooping wheel toes in as it drops) maybe that could be the reason for the "push " i have had over the last season. Time for a bump steer kit????
mk
You mean the balljoint nut? It's supposed to be 47 ft lbs. If you can't get a torque wrench on it, estimate it. The balljoint nut may not snug, but just spin the balljoint. If it does, use a prybar under the bottom of the balljoint to lever it up into the steering arm on the hub, while you snug the nut. It will stop spinning and snug up.
Is this 1/8th total (both sides) over 18" wheel diameter?
Counting threads is not very accurate. You could off a 1/4 turn, and that could be a 1/4 degree.
Is this 1/8th total (both sides) over 18" wheel diameter?
Counting threads is not very accurate. You could off a 1/4 turn, and that could be a 1/4 degree.
02-23-2008, 02:39 PM
#19
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the one im mainly concerned with is the nut on the top of the tie rod. I couldnt get torque wrench on it, but as it snugs up, its hard to figure out hot tight it should be as it has some pretty good resistance as the tie rod end moves into the tappered fit hole. It looks ok, but that nut looks kind of whimpy. the old nut was solid and bigger, the new nut has cuts for a safety wire (clip), so it doesnt have very many threads to engage.
Total toe out was 1/8" thats using 19" rim points. front of the rims are 71 1/4 " and the rear of the rim is 71 1/8". so, 1/16" per side which works to .19degrees toed in or 11 mins toed in. (22min total toe, .36 degrees total toe)
I dont think that is a big problem. However, in looking at my bump steer, i bet now that im at 108mm ride hight, my inside wheel on hard turns, is really fighting the turn in fulll droop (assuming that the drooping wheel toes in as it drops) maybe that could be the reason for the "push " i have had over the last season. Time for a bump steer kit????
mk
I dont think that is a big problem. However, in looking at my bump steer, i bet now that im at 108mm ride hight, my inside wheel on hard turns, is really fighting the turn in fulll droop (assuming that the drooping wheel toes in as it drops) maybe that could be the reason for the "push " i have had over the last season. Time for a bump steer kit????
mk
02-23-2008, 03:52 PM
#20
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not fully settled yet, but mine isnt like the stock shocks, so it drops to almost .5" from final resting point.
New toe is right about 0. i also checked my thread counting technique with the micrometer of pirtles' website instructions. (good idea) its almost the same, but a little longer, so more toe in than before.
was 1/8" toe in , probably now, about 1/16th when it all settles. maybe i wont go to the rack!
I do want to take a little camber out. the fronts are now 2.0 and 1.9 degrees adn im seriously burning the inside edge now. I think this is because the ride hight has been going down over the years with no alignment adjustments. (was 1.7 1.6 degrees or so to start)
can i just do a quick camber nut change and not effect anything??? just would like to take a little camber out, like 2 down to 1.7 if possible by hand and not the machine. anyone ever done this free hand. Ive only experiemented on the rear wheels, as there is less to get in trouble with back there.
mk
New toe is right about 0. i also checked my thread counting technique with the micrometer of pirtles' website instructions. (good idea) its almost the same, but a little longer, so more toe in than before.
was 1/8" toe in , probably now, about 1/16th when it all settles. maybe i wont go to the rack!
I do want to take a little camber out. the fronts are now 2.0 and 1.9 degrees adn im seriously burning the inside edge now. I think this is because the ride hight has been going down over the years with no alignment adjustments. (was 1.7 1.6 degrees or so to start)
can i just do a quick camber nut change and not effect anything??? just would like to take a little camber out, like 2 down to 1.7 if possible by hand and not the machine. anyone ever done this free hand. Ive only experiemented on the rear wheels, as there is less to get in trouble with back there.
mk
02-23-2008, 04:26 PM
#21
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Front camber adjustment affects toe but not vice versa. Less negative camber would cause toe to go more in. This is because reducing negative camber brings the bottom of the wheel/hub/steering arm in. So, with the tie rod the same length, it pushes the rear edge of the wheel out, toeing it in.
I didn't think 2 degrees of camber would wear the inside of the tires that much, but I could be wrong. Of course, under compression, you are lot more negative and more toed out. Have you done tire temps? You may try a more neutral alignment and try to address the push in other ways.
I didn't think 2 degrees of camber would wear the inside of the tires that much, but I could be wrong. Of course, under compression, you are lot more negative and more toed out. Have you done tire temps? You may try a more neutral alignment and try to address the push in other ways.
02-23-2008, 06:32 PM
#22
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actually the car was REAL good all season long, due to the bigger splitter and less rear wing. The temps were pretty good as well. I think most of my wear now, is coming from the commute to the track. the tires were good after laguna in november, then with a bunch of street runs over the winter, the inside edge is going away! ive always run just a tad of toe out and 1.5 to 1.7 camber up front. the wear pattern just might be to the increased camber due to the ride hight slowly going down.
any tips for adding a tad of positive camber . just loosen the nut and tap the ecentric around a little?
MK
any tips for adding a tad of positive camber . just loosen the nut and tap the ecentric around a little?
MK
02-23-2008, 09:42 PM
#23
Chronic Tool Dropper
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Mark,
Based on the numbers you stated, you were already toed OUT 1/8". That puts a lot of wear on the insides of the tires. With your car low, tie rods angled UP towards the outer ends, rack below the outer tie rod ends, you will toe out more as suspension compresses on the outside, in as the other side extends. If only the roll axis of the car was right under the centerline rather than perpendicular to that same center line... And too bad the springs, shocks and suspension geometry aren't linear in both directions-- toe change would be minimal if figured just from body roll. But it isn't, they aren't, so it isn't. Then there's the ackerman, which causes toe to change based on steering angles. It's close to perfect at stock height with original wheel offsets. The effect diminishes with the lowered suspension, and it really needs to increase with wheel centers moved out (less offset). That's why a little toe-out seems to improve turn-in on your car, by the way. You are effectively correcting for toe change before you turn the wheels off center, at the expense of tire life when driving withe the rack centered. You need some of those fancy hot-rod tie rod ends, the ones with the offset bolt under the ball. That way you could move the ball inwards and a little forward of the bolt hole in the arm.
Have fun!
Based on the numbers you stated, you were already toed OUT 1/8". That puts a lot of wear on the insides of the tires. With your car low, tie rods angled UP towards the outer ends, rack below the outer tie rod ends, you will toe out more as suspension compresses on the outside, in as the other side extends. If only the roll axis of the car was right under the centerline rather than perpendicular to that same center line... And too bad the springs, shocks and suspension geometry aren't linear in both directions-- toe change would be minimal if figured just from body roll. But it isn't, they aren't, so it isn't. Then there's the ackerman, which causes toe to change based on steering angles. It's close to perfect at stock height with original wheel offsets. The effect diminishes with the lowered suspension, and it really needs to increase with wheel centers moved out (less offset). That's why a little toe-out seems to improve turn-in on your car, by the way. You are effectively correcting for toe change before you turn the wheels off center, at the expense of tire life when driving withe the rack centered. You need some of those fancy hot-rod tie rod ends, the ones with the offset bolt under the ball.
That way you could move the ball inwards and a little forward of the bolt hole in the arm.Have fun!
02-24-2008, 02:06 AM
#24
Rennlist Member
That is interesting. I knew the bump steer kit would help, but i didnt know to what extent. Now that I seem to be back at 0 toe, that might wear the tires better, but dont you think a little less camber might help too?
Good stuff, thanks!
Mk
Good stuff, thanks!
Mk
Mark,
Based on the numbers you stated, you were already toed OUT 1/8". That puts a lot of wear on the insides of the tires. With your car low, tie rods angled UP towards the outer ends, rack below the outer tie rod ends, you will toe out more as suspension compresses on the outside, in as the other side extends. If only the roll axis of the car was right under the centerline rather than perpendicular to that same center line... And too bad the springs, shocks and suspension geometry aren't linear in both directions-- toe change would be minimal if figured just from body roll. But it isn't, they aren't, so it isn't. Then there's the ackerman, which causes toe to change based on steering angles. It's close to perfect at stock height with original wheel offsets. The effect diminishes with the lowered suspension, and it really needs to increase with wheel centers moved out (less offset). That's why a little toe-out seems to improve turn-in on your car, by the way. You are effectively correcting for toe change before you turn the wheels off center, at the expense of tire life when driving withe the rack centered. You need some of those fancy hot-rod tie rod ends, the ones with the offset bolt under the ball. That way you could move the ball inwards and a little forward of the bolt hole in the arm.
Have fun!
Based on the numbers you stated, you were already toed OUT 1/8". That puts a lot of wear on the insides of the tires. With your car low, tie rods angled UP towards the outer ends, rack below the outer tie rod ends, you will toe out more as suspension compresses on the outside, in as the other side extends. If only the roll axis of the car was right under the centerline rather than perpendicular to that same center line... And too bad the springs, shocks and suspension geometry aren't linear in both directions-- toe change would be minimal if figured just from body roll. But it isn't, they aren't, so it isn't. Then there's the ackerman, which causes toe to change based on steering angles. It's close to perfect at stock height with original wheel offsets. The effect diminishes with the lowered suspension, and it really needs to increase with wheel centers moved out (less offset). That's why a little toe-out seems to improve turn-in on your car, by the way. You are effectively correcting for toe change before you turn the wheels off center, at the expense of tire life when driving withe the rack centered. You need some of those fancy hot-rod tie rod ends, the ones with the offset bolt under the ball.
That way you could move the ball inwards and a little forward of the bolt hole in the arm.Have fun!
02-24-2008, 02:23 AM
#25
Team Owner
when your trying to remove the inner tierods try pushing the aluminum spacer towards the rack housing ,(they slide)then you can fit a big *** 32mm wrench and counterhold with the 22mm. When removing the outer tierods leave the nut on a few threads make sure it turnsfreely before using whatever tool your going to use to loosen the slip fit connection,( this helps prevent the tierod from flying off
02-24-2008, 02:33 AM
#26
Rennlist Member
Now you tell me!
Hey, i was surprised to see that aluminum spacer move. and by the way, i pushed it toward the wheel and put the 22mm open end on that part and then was able to use the monster sized 32mm to crack the threaded part and went to the shorter, thinner 32 to finish the job. leaving the nut on a few threads on the tie rod end was a better idea than the gun shot tie rod removal style I did.
mk
Hey, i was surprised to see that aluminum spacer move. and by the way, i pushed it toward the wheel and put the 22mm open end on that part and then was able to use the monster sized 32mm to crack the threaded part and went to the shorter, thinner 32 to finish the job. leaving the nut on a few threads on the tie rod end was a better idea than the gun shot tie rod removal style I did.
mk
when your trying to remove the inner tierods try pushing the aluminum spacer towards the rack housing ,(they slide)then you can fit a big *** 32mm wrench and counterhold with the 22mm. When removing the outer tierods leave the nut on a few threads make sure it turnsfreely before using whatever tool your going to use to loosen the slip fit connection,( this helps prevent the tierod from flying off
02-24-2008, 03:27 AM
#27
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Back on topic.
Whenever you need to counterhold something - like the rack shafts, or the oil cooler connections to the radiator or similar pipe to pipe connections and just squeezing two wrenches together doesn't work, use a spring compressor hooked between the other ends of the wrenches to pull them together - much more force on the wrenches than your hands can achieve and becuase it is so controlled no danger of the counterheld piece (like the oil cooler fitting into the radiator) experiencing any torque at all.
Whenever you need to counterhold something - like the rack shafts, or the oil cooler connections to the radiator or similar pipe to pipe connections and just squeezing two wrenches together doesn't work, use a spring compressor hooked between the other ends of the wrenches to pull them together - much more force on the wrenches than your hands can achieve and becuase it is so controlled no danger of the counterheld piece (like the oil cooler fitting into the radiator) experiencing any torque at all.
02-24-2008, 03:12 PM
#28
Chronic Tool Dropper
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Jon-- great idea!
Mark-- Consider what a "bump steer kit does". Typically they add vertical offset to the outer tie rod end so the tie rods are closer to level on a lowered car. Sounds like a great idea, but... Look at the axis through the lower control arm bushings, and notice that the inner end of the tie rod sits almost exactly above that with rack centered. See how the angle of the tie rod is the same as the angle of the lower arm? Moving the outer end down will change the relationship between the two. If you make that change, you'll add toe out on the suspension compression side, toe in on the extension side. I'm thinking that's opposite what you want it to do. Could be wrong on that. The last suspension I designed from scratch was in my little sports racer, and there was no discernable body roll in that to worry about. Bump steer happened when the delrin rub block bumped the ground in a hard corner.
It doesn't take more than a day or two of effort to model the whole suspension to the point where you can see the effects of changes like this before you turn a wrench. IIRC, Mark A. was looking for a support person a few years ago to help with such a project. With all the folks trying to go fast on the track with different combinations of ride height, spring rates, wheel width and offset, getting at least a set of standard simulations done would add value for a lot of the racers, and likely benefit street/performance drivers as they consider tire and wheel choices.
Mark-- Consider what a "bump steer kit does". Typically they add vertical offset to the outer tie rod end so the tie rods are closer to level on a lowered car. Sounds like a great idea, but... Look at the axis through the lower control arm bushings, and notice that the inner end of the tie rod sits almost exactly above that with rack centered. See how the angle of the tie rod is the same as the angle of the lower arm? Moving the outer end down will change the relationship between the two. If you make that change, you'll add toe out on the suspension compression side, toe in on the extension side. I'm thinking that's opposite what you want it to do. Could be wrong on that. The last suspension I designed from scratch was in my little sports racer, and there was no discernable body roll in that to worry about. Bump steer happened when the delrin rub block bumped the ground in a hard corner.
It doesn't take more than a day or two of effort to model the whole suspension to the point where you can see the effects of changes like this before you turn a wrench. IIRC, Mark A. was looking for a support person a few years ago to help with such a project. With all the folks trying to go fast on the track with different combinations of ride height, spring rates, wheel width and offset, getting at least a set of standard simulations done would add value for a lot of the racers, and likely benefit street/performance drivers as they consider tire and wheel choices.
02-24-2008, 04:38 PM
#29
Rennlist Member
interesting again!
however, i dont think the compression toe'ing out would be much of an issue, since that might only make the steering a little desensitized on high G turns, but the drooping tire on the other side, wouldnt toe in as much as without the bump steer kit, right? (keeping that inside tire from counteracting the turning force, unless it was up the air.
Based on your post about some of the counteracting forces of the geometry, maybe my only issue is the angled force of the tie rod into the steering race. (Mine looks pretty funny, angling up about 45 degrees )
pretty complicated. its making my head hurt now!
mk
Mark-- Consider what a "bump steer kit does". Typically they add vertical offset to the outer tie rod end so the tie rods are closer to level on a lowered car. Sounds like a great idea, but... Look at the axis through the lower control arm bushings, and notice that the inner end of the tie rod sits almost exactly above that with rack centered. See how the angle of the tie rod is the same as the angle of the lower arm? Moving the outer end down will change the relationship between the two. If you make that change, you'll add toe out on the suspension compression side, toe in on the extension side. I'm thinking that's opposite what you want it to do. Could be wrong on that. The last suspension I designed from scratch was in my little sports racer, and there was no discernable body roll in that to worry about. Bump steer happened when the delrin rub block bumped the ground in a hard corner.
It doesn't take more than a day or two of effort to model the whole suspension to the point where you can see the effects of changes like this before you turn a wrench. IIRC, Mark A. was looking for a support person a few years ago to help with such a project. With all the folks trying to go fast on the track with different combinations of ride height, spring rates, wheel width and offset, getting at least a set of standard simulations done would add value for a lot of the racers, and likely benefit street/performance drivers as they consider tire and wheel choices.
however, i dont think the compression toe'ing out would be much of an issue, since that might only make the steering a little desensitized on high G turns, but the drooping tire on the other side, wouldnt toe in as much as without the bump steer kit, right? (keeping that inside tire from counteracting the turning force, unless it was up the air
.Based on your post about some of the counteracting forces of the geometry, maybe my only issue is the angled force of the tie rod into the steering race. (Mine looks pretty funny, angling up about 45 degrees )
pretty complicated. its making my head hurt now!
mk
Mark-- Consider what a "bump steer kit does". Typically they add vertical offset to the outer tie rod end so the tie rods are closer to level on a lowered car. Sounds like a great idea, but... Look at the axis through the lower control arm bushings, and notice that the inner end of the tie rod sits almost exactly above that with rack centered. See how the angle of the tie rod is the same as the angle of the lower arm? Moving the outer end down will change the relationship between the two. If you make that change, you'll add toe out on the suspension compression side, toe in on the extension side. I'm thinking that's opposite what you want it to do. Could be wrong on that. The last suspension I designed from scratch was in my little sports racer, and there was no discernable body roll in that to worry about. Bump steer happened when the delrin rub block bumped the ground in a hard corner.
It doesn't take more than a day or two of effort to model the whole suspension to the point where you can see the effects of changes like this before you turn a wrench. IIRC, Mark A. was looking for a support person a few years ago to help with such a project. With all the folks trying to go fast on the track with different combinations of ride height, spring rates, wheel width and offset, getting at least a set of standard simulations done would add value for a lot of the racers, and likely benefit street/performance drivers as they consider tire and wheel choices.
02-25-2008, 02:29 PM
#30
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can you adjust toe just on one side. I dont understand how there is a left side and right side toe. i guess that is just relative to the centering pin on the rack. but if you dont care about the micro degrees that you are going to be off left to right on the range of motion, does it really matter? isnt the total Toe all you care about and that can be micro adjusted on one side, especially if we are talking a quarter turn here or there, right???
Mk
Mk