1979 performance
Burning Brakes
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,207
Likes: 2
Cost would depend on what kind of price you could find on an engine but the simplest and I'm sure the cheapest way to get a 300HP engine into a '79 would be to get a '80-'83 Euro "S" engine, which is exactly 300HP (crank) and a drop-in replacement for your CIS equipped no-electronics chassis.
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 12,270
Likes: 261
From: Hotlanta - NE of the Perimeter
All in all I would hesitate to start any lengthy process for improving an OB's performance - unless your Daddy Warbucks! 
My advise would be to either enjoy the car for what it is - or sell it and look for an S4. GT, or perhaps a GTS ( <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" /> )
My advise would be to either enjoy the car for what it is - or sell it and look for an S4. GT, or perhaps a GTS ( <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" /> )
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,426
Likes: 223
From: Honolulu and sometimes L.A.
There is a great article on exactly this in the September 1985 issue of VW/Porsche. They take what looks like about an '83 U.S. car and upgrade it step by step with MSDS headers and then euro valves and euro cams and ported intakes. They have nice charts and so forth. They show about 220hp stock, 240 with MSDS and 290 with the valves and cams. This is definately a possible way to go, and in fact for years I have had a extra set of heads around for my '82 U.S. car in case I ever wanted to do this.
However, I don't think I will ever do this now...for two reasons. The first is that you can get the euro motors on ebay for about $500 complete. Its gonna be pretty hard to do much machine work for that price, and my experience is that 928 motors last a long long time, so its not a bad option. The second reason is that I now have a '79 euro car as well as my '82 US car. The '79 is still not running exactly right, so I may change my mind later, but right now I would say I actually like the feel of the '82 a little better. Its hard to explain, but somehow the power on the '82 is rounder and smoother and it just wants to spin in a way the '79 does not.
The other thing I can add here is that smogging the '79 euro motor was no problem. I bought my car from out of state and it still had the stock euro exhaust with no cat. $150 got an aftermarket cat welded in where the center glass pack used to go and it passed with no trouble.
If anybody is serious enough about this to want to look at the article (and has not been following 928 literature since the mid 80s) send me an email or something. I'm sure we can figure out a way to fax it or photocopy it or something. Perhaps someone has a site where it could be posted?
However, I don't think I will ever do this now...for two reasons. The first is that you can get the euro motors on ebay for about $500 complete. Its gonna be pretty hard to do much machine work for that price, and my experience is that 928 motors last a long long time, so its not a bad option. The second reason is that I now have a '79 euro car as well as my '82 US car. The '79 is still not running exactly right, so I may change my mind later, but right now I would say I actually like the feel of the '82 a little better. Its hard to explain, but somehow the power on the '82 is rounder and smoother and it just wants to spin in a way the '79 does not.
The other thing I can add here is that smogging the '79 euro motor was no problem. I bought my car from out of state and it still had the stock euro exhaust with no cat. $150 got an aftermarket cat welded in where the center glass pack used to go and it passed with no trouble.
If anybody is serious enough about this to want to look at the article (and has not been following 928 literature since the mid 80s) send me an email or something. I'm sure we can figure out a way to fax it or photocopy it or something. Perhaps someone has a site where it could be posted?
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,887
Likes: 0
From: LA, Calif., USA
karl, i would be interested in seeing that article. the mods you talk about would be great to know, and when my time comes for a purchase, i will be well informed.
digitally scanned would be the best way, if not, i can supply an address and you can mail a copy to me (in color?). i can then scan it and put it up on my (meager) site for all to view.
digitally scanned would be the best way, if not, i can supply an address and you can mail a copy to me (in color?). i can then scan it and put it up on my (meager) site for all to view.
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,887
Likes: 0
From: LA, Calif., USA
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">you could drop in an LT1 engine.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">nah, i think i'd leave that for a camaro..... <a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=14;t=006641" target="_blank">my thread</a>
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,579
Likes: 0
From: Clearwater Beach, Florida
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by karl ruiter:
<strong> you can get the euro motors on ebay for about $500 complete. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I keep reading these statements everywhere on this list, but can never verify it. I must be looking in the wrong place! where are these engines hiding on ebay? the arts and crafts category? If anyone knows of that kind of a deal, I'll buy it and give you a finder's fee...and would be interested in 9 more
<strong> you can get the euro motors on ebay for about $500 complete. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I keep reading these statements everywhere on this list, but can never verify it. I must be looking in the wrong place! where are these engines hiding on ebay? the arts and crafts category? If anyone knows of that kind of a deal, I'll buy it and give you a finder's fee...and would be interested in 9 more
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,348
Likes: 0
From: Los Angeles, CA
Yeah...
Cost-wise, let's say you buy a '79 for $6,000.
If you sell it for $6,000, and buy an 84 euro for $8,000, then it cost you $2,000 to upgrade your car. And in the process, get a newer car, that is not "Frankensteined". Or, spend a few thousand more, and get an s4...
To do a euro engine swap, or do the euro intakes, intake and headers, etc, will cost you several thousand when all is said and done...
Putting in an American V8 is costly as well.
When you talk about cheap cars on E-bay, there seem to be good deals on wrecked or neglected cars. So you could get an s4 or euro engine. But it will not be in perfect shape, and doing a swap is not easy.
I really think that you need to decide what kind of power you want, and how much you want to spend, and what kind of 928 you want. I think people who buy the early cars, should do so because they like the original styling, etc... If you want a really fast car, you should be looking at s4's or Euros, not '79's... If you buy an early US car, just know that it will not be that fast... If you want it to be fast, don't waste tons of time and money trying to make it be something it's not. Early cars look cool. They handle well. They are simpler to work on. But they are not as easily hot-rodded as the later model cars...
Here's an idea for those of you with early cars, who want more power sometimes...
NOS.
Probably the cheapest way to get significant power increase. And if it blows up... Then you can do that engine swap! Or rebuild it as a stroker, etc...
Cost-wise, let's say you buy a '79 for $6,000.
If you sell it for $6,000, and buy an 84 euro for $8,000, then it cost you $2,000 to upgrade your car. And in the process, get a newer car, that is not "Frankensteined". Or, spend a few thousand more, and get an s4...
To do a euro engine swap, or do the euro intakes, intake and headers, etc, will cost you several thousand when all is said and done...
Putting in an American V8 is costly as well.
When you talk about cheap cars on E-bay, there seem to be good deals on wrecked or neglected cars. So you could get an s4 or euro engine. But it will not be in perfect shape, and doing a swap is not easy.
I really think that you need to decide what kind of power you want, and how much you want to spend, and what kind of 928 you want. I think people who buy the early cars, should do so because they like the original styling, etc... If you want a really fast car, you should be looking at s4's or Euros, not '79's... If you buy an early US car, just know that it will not be that fast... If you want it to be fast, don't waste tons of time and money trying to make it be something it's not. Early cars look cool. They handle well. They are simpler to work on. But they are not as easily hot-rodded as the later model cars...
Here's an idea for those of you with early cars, who want more power sometimes...
NOS.
Probably the cheapest way to get significant power increase. And if it blows up... Then you can do that engine swap! Or rebuild it as a stroker, etc...
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,426
Likes: 223
From: Honolulu and sometimes L.A.
Hi Deni
My scanner has been disconnected for a while and I don't have time to screw with it. But if you email me with your snail mail address I will post you a copy.
-Karl
My scanner has been disconnected for a while and I don't have time to screw with it. But if you email me with your snail mail address I will post you a copy.
-Karl
Burning Brakes
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 969
Likes: 0
From: Santa Cruz, California
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by bcdavis:
<strong>
I really think that you need to decide what kind of power you want, and how much you want to spend, and what kind of 928 you want. I think people who buy the early cars, should do so because they like the original styling, etc... If you want a really fast car, you should be looking at s4's or Euros, not '79's... If you buy an early US car, just know that it will not be that fast... If you want it to be fast, don't waste tons of time and money trying to make it be something it's not.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Hey now... I resemble those remarks. Or something like that. While I've not driven an S4, GT, or GTS, I can tell you the OB's are plenty 'fast' and have no troubles keeping up when the road gets twisty. I'd love some more ponies but at this point I'll settle for more brakes and bigger rubber 'cuz my OB is el mucho quick in the real world.
<strong>
I really think that you need to decide what kind of power you want, and how much you want to spend, and what kind of 928 you want. I think people who buy the early cars, should do so because they like the original styling, etc... If you want a really fast car, you should be looking at s4's or Euros, not '79's... If you buy an early US car, just know that it will not be that fast... If you want it to be fast, don't waste tons of time and money trying to make it be something it's not.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Hey now... I resemble those remarks. Or something like that. While I've not driven an S4, GT, or GTS, I can tell you the OB's are plenty 'fast' and have no troubles keeping up when the road gets twisty. I'd love some more ponies but at this point I'll settle for more brakes and bigger rubber 'cuz my OB is el mucho quick in the real world.
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,593
Likes: 2
From: Crownsville, MD
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I'd love some more ponies but at this point I'll settle for more brakes and bigger rubber 'cuz my OB is el mucho quick in the real world.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">My sentiments exactly. What you lose on HP you have in lighter weight vs the later vintages. Best thing you can do is upgrade the suspension and brakes and lighten the car even more.
Instructor
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 183
Likes: 0
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by John Krawczyk:
<strong>[QUOTE]What you lose on HP you have in lighter weight vs the later vintages.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I'm not sure how much weight you guys think is being saved with the early cars. A 78-79 US 5-speed is listed at 3285lbs and 219hp. An 87-88 US 5-speed is 3505lbs and 316hp. That's a difference of only 220lbs, and an increase of 97hp. The factory specs list those later cars as being a full second faster in the 1/4 mile than those early ones.
<strong>[QUOTE]What you lose on HP you have in lighter weight vs the later vintages.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I'm not sure how much weight you guys think is being saved with the early cars. A 78-79 US 5-speed is listed at 3285lbs and 219hp. An 87-88 US 5-speed is 3505lbs and 316hp. That's a difference of only 220lbs, and an increase of 97hp. The factory specs list those later cars as being a full second faster in the 1/4 mile than those early ones.
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,593
Likes: 2
From: Crownsville, MD
Straight line performance is only one part of the driving equation so for me personaly the 1 sec diffenrence in 1/4 mile times is irrellavant to how i like to use my 928. I prefer backroad driving and I think without a doubt the OB's are lighter on their feet in this arena. 219 is plenty of HP to put the car on the rivet. I dont give very much to an S4 on the back roads, the exception being extented straights and if those straights arent too long, they come right back to me when the road turns left and right.
Instructor
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 183
Likes: 0
The 1/4 mile performance was mentioned because it most clearly illustrates the difference in the power to weight advantage of the later cars. When you're talking about being able to keep up with a later car on back roads, you're really talking about driver ability more than anything else. Having driven both earlier and later cars, I'm plenty happy to give up 220lbs for the amount of increase in power and braking of the later cars.