Re-Paint Dilemma: What would you do? (LONG)
01-27-2008, 10:23 PM
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Re-Paint Dilemma: What would you do? (LONG)
Heinrich’s thread got me to thinking. Rather than hi-jack a friend, I’ll start a different thread:
STATEMENT: Thanks to the 928 parts suppliers, we can always find 928 mechanical parts for replacement of defective pieces but, as Heinrich suggested, an absolutely pristine body with ORIGINAL paint is hard to find. How many 928s still have factory paint, no bondo, are driven regularly, no door dings, and still have original paint and body parts that are dent-free and can score at least a 9 or 10 on its body? (10 being like new).
THE MARKET: Given the chance, most discriminate (i.e., "****") buyers prefer to buy a car with original paint since original Porsches came with good and durable paint to begin with. Unfortunately, our cars are getting to the age that the original paint shows all the warts, door dents, dings, fading, whether it's been in a wreck or not, acid rain etching, impressions from women posing on our hoods, and so on. Others have been repainted but the paint application quality varies a lot and “repaints” can hide imperfections from potential buyers.
THE REALITY: All cars that are driven are going to have small chips out of the paint on the front bumper and just in front of the rear fenders, the mirror faces, door dents, small dings, bra wear, maybe some corrosion and/or some paint fading, etc. These may be absolute excellent cars, but are not "perfect" like many owners aspire to own. This is part of the dilemma of having original paint. The fact is that, all but for museum cars and a few garage queens, not a lot of 928s fall into the pristine or near-perfect category. Cars whose paint has been allowed to deteriorate may point to mechanical issues that have been neglected.
FACT? Probably most 928 owners would rather have good solid cars with excellent mechanicals AND (AS WELL) nice, new-thick, mirror-like, to-die-for, thick near-concurs paint (otherwise why would we spend so much time waxing and polishing our rigs?)
ASSERTION 1: You can't have your cake and eat it too. Cars that are pristine and have new-looking original paint will likely continue to be garage queens and used infrequently. Cars will less-than-perfect-paint are more apt to be daily drivers and enjoyed more on the road/track.
ASSERTION 2: Many 928s may indeed look much better with well executed new paint jobs but this may affect sales value when compared to cars with original paint. Good condition, original paint cars can bring more money. NOTE: My 928 in the foto below has excellent new paint with a few dings...but the interior, engine and drivetrain are close-to-perfect. It had to be repainted because of a fender bender).
ASSERTION 3: Many 928s whose bodies have been dinged very much, had a fender bender, faded, paint, etc. are better off with new paint. This presents challenges:
A: Excellent, restored-to-original, professionally applied paint requires that body panels be removed, doors removed, glass taken out, etc. Good paint jobs can cost anywhere from $6K to $12 (or double this!). Depending on the condition of the rest of the car, this is money that probably will not be recouped in a sale. But these well-done repainted cars admittedly are beautiful.
B: As mentioned in Heinrich’s thread, professional quality paint jobs are hard to come by these days unless you pay high dollar and not every shop is used to working on anything but easy-money fender-bender Hondas, Ford Focuses, etc. The chances of getting good, reasonably-priced paint from run-of-the-mill body shops varies. The chances of you recouping the cost of the paint job are questionable, or of getting a great deal on a good paint job (Hint: Marry someone whose father owns a paint shop or photograph the paint sprayer making out with the secretary).
C: DIY paint jobs usually look like they weren’t done in a professional paint booth, will likely have orange peel, runs, thin spots, fish eyes, dust bunny residue, mosquitos, hairs, etc. It may look good if you don’t look close and may be well worth your effort on a car that’s not tops in interior, etc. You can sand some things out of paint bloopers. I’ve painted about a dozen cars myself and had about that many done by professionals….my jobs looked “OK to almost good” (and I once worked in a body shop)….the outsourced jobs to professionals looked outstanding! (I use Street Rod paint shops, they seem to understand **** paint and tend to be cheaper…but you should prep your car, take the trim and bumpers off, etc They spray paint and our cars are strange to them). Also, if you don’t paint the door jams, and similar places, it’s difficult to make them look good. (By the way, has anyone had just a outside paint (no jams, bumpers on, etc.) and blended the new paint edges to the old? How did it turn out?)
D: Maaco? If you sand, prime, sand, reprime, sand, straighten, prime, sand with 600 grit again, and prep the body to perfection (yourself) before taking it in to get sprayed, the job may or may not be passable. Good body prep is not learned on your first paint job. What appears “perfect” before applying paint, often looks not-so-good after sprayed. It’s not really a black-art but may be close. The last rig I personally painted, just the cost of the good quality two-part paint, clearcoat, thinners, etc. itself cost me more than what some complete Maaco or neighborhood “Kwik-Spray” paint jobs would cost. If you’re trying to “salvage” an average hi-mile, hi-wear 928 that may not be worth putting much money into in, and you want to drive it ‘till it drops, this may be the best choice. No use throwing good money down a hole if you don’t have to. Car dealerships put cheap paint on cars all the time since a lot of people judge a car by how shiney the paint is.
QUESTION: If you have a 928 that has an absolutely excellent interior, all the instruments work, and it’s absolutely solid mechanically and has a great drive train….. but has paint that’s scores a 7 or 8 out of 10, would you keep it in the original paint (with those advantages) or have a $6K-$8K re-paint job done that would well complement the rest of the car? Or vice-versa?
What are your thoughts? What's wrong with the above reasoning?
H2
Someone asked why I was so long-winded? It's pretty simple. Really smart people can say things in just few words. Plus, I've been out of work for the past four months, recuperating from an illness...contemplating what I'll do to my Pcars when the weather breaks.
STATEMENT: Thanks to the 928 parts suppliers, we can always find 928 mechanical parts for replacement of defective pieces but, as Heinrich suggested, an absolutely pristine body with ORIGINAL paint is hard to find. How many 928s still have factory paint, no bondo, are driven regularly, no door dings, and still have original paint and body parts that are dent-free and can score at least a 9 or 10 on its body? (10 being like new).
THE MARKET: Given the chance, most discriminate (i.e., "****") buyers prefer to buy a car with original paint since original Porsches came with good and durable paint to begin with. Unfortunately, our cars are getting to the age that the original paint shows all the warts, door dents, dings, fading, whether it's been in a wreck or not, acid rain etching, impressions from women posing on our hoods, and so on. Others have been repainted but the paint application quality varies a lot and “repaints” can hide imperfections from potential buyers.
THE REALITY: All cars that are driven are going to have small chips out of the paint on the front bumper and just in front of the rear fenders, the mirror faces, door dents, small dings, bra wear, maybe some corrosion and/or some paint fading, etc. These may be absolute excellent cars, but are not "perfect" like many owners aspire to own. This is part of the dilemma of having original paint. The fact is that, all but for museum cars and a few garage queens, not a lot of 928s fall into the pristine or near-perfect category. Cars whose paint has been allowed to deteriorate may point to mechanical issues that have been neglected.
FACT? Probably most 928 owners would rather have good solid cars with excellent mechanicals AND (AS WELL) nice, new-thick, mirror-like, to-die-for, thick near-concurs paint (otherwise why would we spend so much time waxing and polishing our rigs?)
ASSERTION 1: You can't have your cake and eat it too. Cars that are pristine and have new-looking original paint will likely continue to be garage queens and used infrequently. Cars will less-than-perfect-paint are more apt to be daily drivers and enjoyed more on the road/track.
ASSERTION 2: Many 928s may indeed look much better with well executed new paint jobs but this may affect sales value when compared to cars with original paint. Good condition, original paint cars can bring more money. NOTE: My 928 in the foto below has excellent new paint with a few dings...but the interior, engine and drivetrain are close-to-perfect. It had to be repainted because of a fender bender).
ASSERTION 3: Many 928s whose bodies have been dinged very much, had a fender bender, faded, paint, etc. are better off with new paint. This presents challenges:
A: Excellent, restored-to-original, professionally applied paint requires that body panels be removed, doors removed, glass taken out, etc. Good paint jobs can cost anywhere from $6K to $12 (or double this!). Depending on the condition of the rest of the car, this is money that probably will not be recouped in a sale. But these well-done repainted cars admittedly are beautiful.
B: As mentioned in Heinrich’s thread, professional quality paint jobs are hard to come by these days unless you pay high dollar and not every shop is used to working on anything but easy-money fender-bender Hondas, Ford Focuses, etc. The chances of getting good, reasonably-priced paint from run-of-the-mill body shops varies. The chances of you recouping the cost of the paint job are questionable, or of getting a great deal on a good paint job (Hint: Marry someone whose father owns a paint shop or photograph the paint sprayer making out with the secretary).
C: DIY paint jobs usually look like they weren’t done in a professional paint booth, will likely have orange peel, runs, thin spots, fish eyes, dust bunny residue, mosquitos, hairs, etc. It may look good if you don’t look close and may be well worth your effort on a car that’s not tops in interior, etc. You can sand some things out of paint bloopers. I’ve painted about a dozen cars myself and had about that many done by professionals….my jobs looked “OK to almost good” (and I once worked in a body shop)….the outsourced jobs to professionals looked outstanding! (I use Street Rod paint shops, they seem to understand **** paint and tend to be cheaper…but you should prep your car, take the trim and bumpers off, etc They spray paint and our cars are strange to them). Also, if you don’t paint the door jams, and similar places, it’s difficult to make them look good. (By the way, has anyone had just a outside paint (no jams, bumpers on, etc.) and blended the new paint edges to the old? How did it turn out?)
D: Maaco? If you sand, prime, sand, reprime, sand, straighten, prime, sand with 600 grit again, and prep the body to perfection (yourself) before taking it in to get sprayed, the job may or may not be passable. Good body prep is not learned on your first paint job. What appears “perfect” before applying paint, often looks not-so-good after sprayed. It’s not really a black-art but may be close. The last rig I personally painted, just the cost of the good quality two-part paint, clearcoat, thinners, etc. itself cost me more than what some complete Maaco or neighborhood “Kwik-Spray” paint jobs would cost. If you’re trying to “salvage” an average hi-mile, hi-wear 928 that may not be worth putting much money into in, and you want to drive it ‘till it drops, this may be the best choice. No use throwing good money down a hole if you don’t have to. Car dealerships put cheap paint on cars all the time since a lot of people judge a car by how shiney the paint is.
QUESTION: If you have a 928 that has an absolutely excellent interior, all the instruments work, and it’s absolutely solid mechanically and has a great drive train….. but has paint that’s scores a 7 or 8 out of 10, would you keep it in the original paint (with those advantages) or have a $6K-$8K re-paint job done that would well complement the rest of the car? Or vice-versa?
What are your thoughts? What's wrong with the above reasoning?
H2
Someone asked why I was so long-winded? It's pretty simple. Really smart people can say things in just few words. Plus, I've been out of work for the past four months, recuperating from an illness...contemplating what I'll do to my Pcars when the weather breaks.
01-27-2008, 10:51 PM
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well........
I have a short comment-sort of....
I had a choice of buying a garage queen or something I could work on (make it the way I wanted to). I chose the latter.
the one I chose had these items in mind:
1. Euro
2. 5-speed
3. unusual color
4. early year model (as opposed to S4 or later)
5. if it had issues, they had to be something I could do myself or at least be something I was familiar enough to not cost me a small fortune
as you can see, #3 and #5 are paint related.
could I find one that was in better shape than the one I purchased?
yes, but it would interfere with #1 thru 5 in some way or another.
I don't worry about paint per se, just bent sheet metal or hidden severe damage. in my paint stripping, I have found no real severe hidden damage, just a few things that were done poorly when it was repainted years ago. these issues are easily and recognize-ably fixed.
I feel that the biggest reason that 928 purchasers are reluctant to buy without very good body/paint marks, is that it is very expensive to re-do one right.
that being said, if you have a rare GT or GTS, the cost is usually worth the expense. if you have a run-of-the-mill early model, the cost can easily pass higher than the car will ever be worth.....
--Russ
I have a short comment-sort of....
I had a choice of buying a garage queen or something I could work on (make it the way I wanted to). I chose the latter.
the one I chose had these items in mind:
1. Euro
2. 5-speed
3. unusual color
4. early year model (as opposed to S4 or later)
5. if it had issues, they had to be something I could do myself or at least be something I was familiar enough to not cost me a small fortune
as you can see, #3 and #5 are paint related.
could I find one that was in better shape than the one I purchased?
yes, but it would interfere with #1 thru 5 in some way or another.
I don't worry about paint per se, just bent sheet metal or hidden severe damage. in my paint stripping, I have found no real severe hidden damage, just a few things that were done poorly when it was repainted years ago. these issues are easily and recognize-ably fixed.
I feel that the biggest reason that 928 purchasers are reluctant to buy without very good body/paint marks, is that it is very expensive to re-do one right.
that being said, if you have a rare GT or GTS, the cost is usually worth the expense. if you have a run-of-the-mill early model, the cost can easily pass higher than the car will ever be worth.....
--Russ
01-27-2008, 10:53 PM
#5
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But seriously folks,
I am going to park my car next weekend and pull the 200k motor for an R&R. When it is out I'm going to pull the body parts/panels, lights etc and have a good paint job done. I will pull the interior panels and carpets as I want to go all (Paul) Champagne leather and new carpets (interior is probably an 8/10 or so)
My car is GP white, and I like the color but would like to get a dark green or dark blue flake, but I am worried about the sills, engine compartment etc. I need to price this out, but I am hoping with the prep I can get a good paint job for $6k-$8k, but I still have to price it out. I am planning on visiting some Hot Rod paint shops over the next couple of weeks to get a better idea of price and the quality of their work. I alsoI think that hot rod shops may be the best bet - I'll find out
I am thinking around $15k-$20k when its all said and done and will probably take me a year or so to spread the work (and cost) over time. Its going to be tough not driving it for that length of time
I am going to park my car next weekend and pull the 200k motor for an R&R. When it is out I'm going to pull the body parts/panels, lights etc and have a good paint job done. I will pull the interior panels and carpets as I want to go all (Paul) Champagne leather and new carpets (interior is probably an 8/10 or so)
My car is GP white, and I like the color but would like to get a dark green or dark blue flake, but I am worried about the sills, engine compartment etc. I need to price this out, but I am hoping with the prep I can get a good paint job for $6k-$8k, but I still have to price it out. I am planning on visiting some Hot Rod paint shops over the next couple of weeks to get a better idea of price and the quality of their work. I alsoI think that hot rod shops may be the best bet - I'll find out
I am thinking around $15k-$20k when its all said and done and will probably take me a year or so to spread the work (and cost) over time. Its going to be tough not driving it for that length of time
Last edited by Rob Roy; 01-27-2008 at 10:56 PM. Reason: Spelling & Grammar afetr 3/4 bottle of Baileys
01-27-2008, 11:45 PM
#6
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But seriously folks,
I am going to park my car next weekend and pull the 200k motor for an R&R. When it is out I'm going to pull the body parts/panels, lights etc and have a good paint job done. I will pull the interior panels and carpets as I want to go all (Paul) Champagne leather and new carpets (interior is probably an 8/10 or so)
My car is GP white, and I like the color but would like to get a dark green or dark blue flake, but I am worried about the sills, engine compartment etc. I need to price this out, but I am hoping with the prep I can get a good paint job for $6k-$8k, but I still have to price it out. I am planning on visiting some Hot Rod paint shops over the next couple of weeks to get a better idea of price and the quality of their work. I alsoI think that hot rod shops may be the best bet - I'll find out
I am thinking around $15k-$20k when its all said and done and will probably take me a year or so to spread the work (and cost) over time. Its going to be tough not driving it for that length of time
I am going to park my car next weekend and pull the 200k motor for an R&R. When it is out I'm going to pull the body parts/panels, lights etc and have a good paint job done. I will pull the interior panels and carpets as I want to go all (Paul) Champagne leather and new carpets (interior is probably an 8/10 or so)
My car is GP white, and I like the color but would like to get a dark green or dark blue flake, but I am worried about the sills, engine compartment etc. I need to price this out, but I am hoping with the prep I can get a good paint job for $6k-$8k, but I still have to price it out. I am planning on visiting some Hot Rod paint shops over the next couple of weeks to get a better idea of price and the quality of their work. I alsoI think that hot rod shops may be the best bet - I'll find out
I am thinking around $15k-$20k when its all said and done and will probably take me a year or so to spread the work (and cost) over time. Its going to be tough not driving it for that length of time
and if you're going to get bids on the resto/paint, you should see Paul Wright over in Huffman......he's going to do my Euro- (if, and I say if, you have no rust issues or bent sheet metal, he can probably do your car for maybe below $6K....? depends upon how deep you want to get into it???? and he takes payments......well, sort of)
--Russ
01-28-2008, 06:02 AM
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I would disagree with this. I have painted out of my home as a side job for several years and can top most all factory jobs. The orange peel you speak of from DIY is from pure lazy. Take time to wet sand! Yes I have runs at times...get a smigen of dust. When it is all said and done I go back and fix the problems to make it 100% before the owner takes it home. ITs all about customer service and pride.
Maaco is a joke, they use paint that is a single stage and cheap...cheap..cheap. I have to pay $369.00 for one gallon Of DuPont Chromabase. $269.00 for other colors. About $100 for their clears. I know the fellows who charge 6K and up are making their living doing this I keep mine under $2000.00 I mean our cars only need 2 to 3 qts of paint for the entire car.
Here is an attachment of the Mercedes I just fininsed. Its just about finding a person who cares about the cars not the time=money concept.
Brian Felts
www.geocities.com/southernohioauto
Maaco is a joke, they use paint that is a single stage and cheap...cheap..cheap. I have to pay $369.00 for one gallon Of DuPont Chromabase. $269.00 for other colors. About $100 for their clears. I know the fellows who charge 6K and up are making their living doing this I keep mine under $2000.00 I mean our cars only need 2 to 3 qts of paint for the entire car.
Here is an attachment of the Mercedes I just fininsed. Its just about finding a person who cares about the cars not the time=money concept.
Brian Felts
www.geocities.com/southernohioauto
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01-28-2008, 07:19 PM
#8
I've thought the same thing about repaint or leave original.
My '88 has all original, front bumper and hood have a fair amount of rock chips and a respray, stage 2 paint, with blending on the fenders is around $800.00. When I'm parked next to the '90, which is the same color, total new paint and a 9 out of 10 on that job, I still can't decide what I want to do...........
I can't afford a job like Sterling is having done, but I don't like the idea of repainting the entire car. Decisions decisions.
My '88 has all original, front bumper and hood have a fair amount of rock chips and a respray, stage 2 paint, with blending on the fenders is around $800.00. When I'm parked next to the '90, which is the same color, total new paint and a 9 out of 10 on that job, I still can't decide what I want to do...........
I can't afford a job like Sterling is having done, but I don't like the idea of repainting the entire car. Decisions decisions.
01-28-2008, 09:15 PM
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Brian,
Isn't a lot of the paint costs in the dismantling, prep work and remantling? Looks like you do beautiful work by the way.
H2,
If you can live with the original paint a few more years then do that. No need to make it perfect right now since if you drive it daily it won't last too long before something happens to the paint job. I would concentrate on the mechanicals for now and then paint it.
Cheers,
Constantine
Isn't a lot of the paint costs in the dismantling, prep work and remantling? Looks like you do beautiful work by the way.
H2,
If you can live with the original paint a few more years then do that. No need to make it perfect right now since if you drive it daily it won't last too long before something happens to the paint job. I would concentrate on the mechanicals for now and then paint it.
Cheers,
Constantine
01-28-2008, 09:38 PM
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Yes that is where most of the work is. I feel its easier to remove lights and trim next to masking them off. However I get paid by the job and not the hour like a true body shop so I can take more time where they have to move more cars.
Brian
Brian
01-28-2008, 09:44 PM
#12
Race Car
I have had front bumper re-paints on every 928 I've owned, I think it's the best bang for the buck, as far as a rehab that most buyers can live with.
Also I might ad, It's amazing what a little elbow grease and the right detailing products can do for aging original paint job. I swear by Larry Reynolds tips at www.carcareonline.com he know his stuff and is a Porsche guy.
Also I might ad, It's amazing what a little elbow grease and the right detailing products can do for aging original paint job. I swear by Larry Reynolds tips at www.carcareonline.com he know his stuff and is a Porsche guy.
01-29-2008, 01:52 AM
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1. Why start a new thread when you can hijack someone elses?
2. Just paint it.... if it bugs you enough to think about it, work with a shop that will allow you to dismanlte it and will do a quality paint job...... and then you put it back together...... however some of the trim is NLA and the door seals have to be replaced.... so research the costs entirely before jumping.... its alot of work.... but I would say very rewarding.....
2. Just paint it.... if it bugs you enough to think about it, work with a shop that will allow you to dismanlte it and will do a quality paint job...... and then you put it back together...... however some of the trim is NLA and the door seals have to be replaced.... so research the costs entirely before jumping.... its alot of work.... but I would say very rewarding.....
Most of it seems like it comes down to how neurotic you are about your 928. I've seen some undercarriage pics on this board that are cleaner than my dinner take. Take ol' Sterling for example. He would say that the final results that he's getting on the repaint job are "very rewarding." Sure, but he's been agonizing for months about it. And if you really want to see a guy squirm, make him add up all of his receipts related to his 928. (Disclaimer: this commentary is not intended to insult or disparage any of the fine work that ol' Sterling has done on his automobile. Its sole intent is to provide a fine example of neurotic 928 owner in its highest form.
)I don't buy the notion that the only way you can get a good paint job is by paying top dollar at the best shop in town. But I wouldn't go to Earl Sheib either. There are a lot of variables involved. And I think that there is a reasonable middle ground. Are you planning on showing your car at Pebble Beach or selling it at Barrett-Jackson? If not, then maybe you don't need to spend 70-80% of the value of your car on a paint job. Especially if you drive it quite a bit. You can spend $8K on a paint job, but it will surely show wear as the miles eventually pile up. As Brian said, you can get a quality paint job at a much more reasonable price if you search around.
If you're thinking about not repainting because of possible future resale value, well....that's just stupid. You shouldn't have bought a 928 in the first place if resale value was a concern.
I think you should fix the car up to a standard that will make you happy. Whether that's dropping $7-8K or something less will depend upon how obsessed you are about your 928.
01-29-2008, 02:28 AM
#15
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H2
Before ponying up the large $$$$ for a repaint....find a top notch PRO detailer who really understands how to use a high speed rotary polisher & wet sanding techniques.....you will be amazed at what a skilled detailer can do to the paint on our 928's.....granted the single stage paints are harder and more durable than the clear coated 928's (due to the softer clear coat)........even if it takes the detailer a long time to do...even $400 is money well spent, compared to a repaint! The bummer is it will be difficult to find a good detailer in your neck of the woods.....maybe start at your local highest end dealer you can find (Porsche or Mercedes, but Ferrari or Lambo is best) and ask them....be wary of their local minimum wage ham fisted guy....you want someone who runs their own business and the dealer pays them to fix things the ham fisted guy messed up!
Before ponying up the large $$$$ for a repaint....find a top notch PRO detailer who really understands how to use a high speed rotary polisher & wet sanding techniques.....you will be amazed at what a skilled detailer can do to the paint on our 928's.....granted the single stage paints are harder and more durable than the clear coated 928's (due to the softer clear coat)........even if it takes the detailer a long time to do...even $400 is money well spent, compared to a repaint! The bummer is it will be difficult to find a good detailer in your neck of the woods.....maybe start at your local highest end dealer you can find (Porsche or Mercedes, but Ferrari or Lambo is best) and ask them....be wary of their local minimum wage ham fisted guy....you want someone who runs their own business and the dealer pays them to fix things the ham fisted guy messed up!