Supercharging on the cheap
09-26-2002, 04:55 PM
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Supercharging on the cheap
I always get scolded when I talk about trying to do something on the Porsche without paying full price, apparently our sacred mission in life being to spend every penny we have on gold plated fittings, but I'll give it a shot.
I don't need a supercharger in my car. Not even a little bit. I only want one because I want to put one in myself and play with it and look at it, and talk to other people about doing it. I don't want a lot of boost, just a few pounds so that I accomplished something. I am practical enough to know that I'm not willing to spend anything near the $6000 or more that it takes to do this "right" for this bit of fun. This is also probably entirely theoretical, but just for the sake of discussion:
No less an authority than Jim Bailey recently mentioned in passing the possibility of putting a Thunderbird supercharger into a shark - the used part apparently being quite cheap. A used part certainly doesn't bother me - 99% of my car is 16 years old now, a five year old supercharger out of a wrecking yard will fit right in.
So what would it take to marry such a thing (or some other commonly available SC'er) to an 86.5 motor? (Feel free, by the way, to expand this discussion to all the other engine types out there.) Am I correct in believing that at a relatively low boost rate my fuel system will be able to adjust and keep up? No intercooler, no external oiling system. Just need some brackets, belts and air plumbing. What am I missing here in throwing together a sub $1000 setup that I could burn a few months of weekends fiddling with and which would work passably well to crank out a few dozen extra ponies?
Dream along with me or blast away.
Mike, 86.5 AT
I don't need a supercharger in my car. Not even a little bit. I only want one because I want to put one in myself and play with it and look at it, and talk to other people about doing it. I don't want a lot of boost, just a few pounds so that I accomplished something. I am practical enough to know that I'm not willing to spend anything near the $6000 or more that it takes to do this "right" for this bit of fun. This is also probably entirely theoretical, but just for the sake of discussion:
No less an authority than Jim Bailey recently mentioned in passing the possibility of putting a Thunderbird supercharger into a shark - the used part apparently being quite cheap. A used part certainly doesn't bother me - 99% of my car is 16 years old now, a five year old supercharger out of a wrecking yard will fit right in.
So what would it take to marry such a thing (or some other commonly available SC'er) to an 86.5 motor? (Feel free, by the way, to expand this discussion to all the other engine types out there.) Am I correct in believing that at a relatively low boost rate my fuel system will be able to adjust and keep up? No intercooler, no external oiling system. Just need some brackets, belts and air plumbing. What am I missing here in throwing together a sub $1000 setup that I could burn a few months of weekends fiddling with and which would work passably well to crank out a few dozen extra ponies?
Dream along with me or blast away.
Mike, 86.5 AT
09-26-2002, 05:06 PM
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How are you going to fit a thunderbird superchager on it? It sits on top of the motor! I was trying to think of how a kenne bell setup could be used with a custom intake. Your best bet is to try and find a used powerdyne or vortech or something like and have some brakets and pulleys made at a machine shop. I sill dont know how you could put a roots type blower on your car.
09-26-2002, 05:13 PM
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Good to know, perhaps that type might fit on top of the OB engines - lot more room in there than in my engine bay. Are there Vortech style superchargers (sort of a self contained, belt driven accessory air pumps) on any mass produced cars?
09-26-2002, 05:50 PM
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TJ, great topic. It's something I'd be willing to tackle myself if it was a sub-$1000 job. Plus, considering I know almost nothing about superchargers, it'd be a great learning experience. If my engine ever blows it'll be a moot point htough as I will drop in an LT-1.
09-26-2002, 06:36 PM
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Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the supercharged t-birds only 3.8L? I don't think that SC could handle the volume of air needed for our cars to make the modification practical, I believe even the t-bird used only about 3 or 4 pounds of boost and that was with a much smaller displacement, the pulley could be changed to speed up the rotors but this could lead to other problems. I don't want to bring you down, the idea is great, and I hope someone shows it will work but I belive alot of expensive intake machining would be in order. <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />
09-26-2002, 11:40 PM
#6
Mike,
I made a kit for my Mercedes 560 SEC. The power jumped by 140 RWHP. I used an ATI Procharger P1SC and it is completely self contained. You don't need oil lines with the Procharger P1SC.
Do your research and determine what you want to spend. I'd figure on a minimum of $1,000 for the bracket and plumbing. Used superchargers are iffy unless they are rebuilt from the factory. Go with a new supercharger. My P1SC was $2,200 with the blow-off valve.
Once you get the supercharger, make a cardboard bracket and take lots of measurements and do a lot of dry fitting. The project may take some time but will be worth the effort. Here is a picture of my custom project: <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/560SECSupcharger_WEB.jpg" target="_blank">http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/560SECSupcharger_WEB.jpg</a>
The project is a big success. The power is amazing and the unit has been very dependable. I drive more than 1000 miles a week in the Florida heat and I have had no problems.
Good luck,
Jim
I made a kit for my Mercedes 560 SEC. The power jumped by 140 RWHP. I used an ATI Procharger P1SC and it is completely self contained. You don't need oil lines with the Procharger P1SC.
Do your research and determine what you want to spend. I'd figure on a minimum of $1,000 for the bracket and plumbing. Used superchargers are iffy unless they are rebuilt from the factory. Go with a new supercharger. My P1SC was $2,200 with the blow-off valve.
Once you get the supercharger, make a cardboard bracket and take lots of measurements and do a lot of dry fitting. The project may take some time but will be worth the effort. Here is a picture of my custom project: <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/560SECSupcharger_WEB.jpg" target="_blank">http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/560SECSupcharger_WEB.jpg</a>
The project is a big success. The power is amazing and the unit has been very dependable. I drive more than 1000 miles a week in the Florida heat and I have had no problems.
Good luck,
Jim
09-27-2002, 04:21 AM
#7
Interesting thread,I've messed with some turbo cars in the past but alot of the same applies.
A rising rate FPR may be adequate for the addition fuel need, if not you will have to use larger injectors. You would have to do some math to figure exactly what size and you want to avoid going to too large on the injectors.
With forced induction the tuning of the manifold changes but becomes a bit less critical; you could fabricate a pair of log type plenums with 4 spouts on each and get satisfactory result while opening up a ton of room in the engine vally but tuned runners will give much better power of course. A used manifold for hacking up would be good.
GM used roots type blowers on some of their 3.8L V6s also and might be more common. The specs for the blower's displacement have to be avaiable on the web somewhere an OEM V6 blower may be adequate if over-driven but durability may be cut down.
If your year car has a knock sensor, it will save your engine in the tuning stage if things are a little off, detonation can destroy a supercharged engine in a hurry. A new sensor would be a good idea.
An A/F ratio meter would be a must and an EGT meter should be strongly considered.
The S/C Jim mentioned above seems the easiest route and in the long run is probably cheaper-and new.
Rebuilt turbos can be had pretty reasonable and the entire electronics from say a 2.5L American car could be installed with a double-dip on the turbos and injectors, oil and water would need plumbed and there's not much room for intercoolers but worth a thought.
A rising rate FPR may be adequate for the addition fuel need, if not you will have to use larger injectors. You would have to do some math to figure exactly what size and you want to avoid going to too large on the injectors.
With forced induction the tuning of the manifold changes but becomes a bit less critical; you could fabricate a pair of log type plenums with 4 spouts on each and get satisfactory result while opening up a ton of room in the engine vally but tuned runners will give much better power of course. A used manifold for hacking up would be good.
GM used roots type blowers on some of their 3.8L V6s also and might be more common. The specs for the blower's displacement have to be avaiable on the web somewhere an OEM V6 blower may be adequate if over-driven but durability may be cut down.
If your year car has a knock sensor, it will save your engine in the tuning stage if things are a little off, detonation can destroy a supercharged engine in a hurry. A new sensor would be a good idea.
An A/F ratio meter would be a must and an EGT meter should be strongly considered.
The S/C Jim mentioned above seems the easiest route and in the long run is probably cheaper-and new.
Rebuilt turbos can be had pretty reasonable and the entire electronics from say a 2.5L American car could be installed with a double-dip on the turbos and injectors, oil and water would need plumbed and there's not much room for intercoolers but worth a thought.
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09-27-2002, 06:46 AM
#8
Don't limit yourself to the T bird SC adaptation, nor, for that matter, to SC alone.
There are, literally, tens of thousands of 1980's, 1990', and new mellenium turbos out there.
I would give a look at the turbo's -diesel- for any number of reasons.
1. Ford, Dodge, and GM have mass produced Pick-up truck turbo's on a scale that boggles the mind so availability/cost is not an issue.
2. An incredible number of people who bought these vehicles - 3 in my cul-de sac alone - jump into these diesel vehicles and don't wait for the glow plugs to do their job. Engines begin to rattle and smoke in a most undiesel like manner.
Related(?) issue is the primary fuel pump going out forcing the injector pumps to 'DRAW' the fuel - this works (badly) and eventually ruins the injector pump. Around the 3rd multi- thousand dollar repair the dealer tells the idiot that the warranty does not apply to ignorance.
This usually results in a 'stolen' vehicle or sometimes a burned vehicle. Economics/payment considerations, you know. In any case alot of the truck/truck engines end up in the scrap yard.
The turbos are usually in mint condition, and or are rebuildable -check the net -.
3.These diesel turbo's can supply the needed volume of air at relatively low boost to our sHARk engines. Some modification will be needed as these pumps work at low rpm relative to our 5800-6200 redlines.
4. Grab the associated sensors from the donor engine/truck. Keep in mind that there are limiters involved here.
5. Low boost is a good thing if you aren't going to go to flat tops/reduce compression in some way.
I still think about Ford, Mustang, EFI, 5.0L mappable computers and how they might be adapted to the 4.5L on up sHARk engines for tuning, shiftpoint, additional power, Diablo chip sets, availability and cost ... someday...
This idea of yours is not a new one, I would try talking to the guy's who have added SC's or Turbos to their 928's to see what issues ,cures, and hardware they used as thier 'PUMP' systems evolved they could save you a heap of grief, and developement time.
Go for it!
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
There are, literally, tens of thousands of 1980's, 1990', and new mellenium turbos out there.
I would give a look at the turbo's -diesel- for any number of reasons.
1. Ford, Dodge, and GM have mass produced Pick-up truck turbo's on a scale that boggles the mind so availability/cost is not an issue.
2. An incredible number of people who bought these vehicles - 3 in my cul-de sac alone - jump into these diesel vehicles and don't wait for the glow plugs to do their job. Engines begin to rattle and smoke in a most undiesel like manner.
Related(?) issue is the primary fuel pump going out forcing the injector pumps to 'DRAW' the fuel - this works (badly) and eventually ruins the injector pump. Around the 3rd multi- thousand dollar repair the dealer tells the idiot that the warranty does not apply to ignorance.
This usually results in a 'stolen' vehicle or sometimes a burned vehicle. Economics/payment considerations, you know. In any case alot of the truck/truck engines end up in the scrap yard.
The turbos are usually in mint condition, and or are rebuildable -check the net -.
3.These diesel turbo's can supply the needed volume of air at relatively low boost to our sHARk engines. Some modification will be needed as these pumps work at low rpm relative to our 5800-6200 redlines.
4. Grab the associated sensors from the donor engine/truck. Keep in mind that there are limiters involved here.
5. Low boost is a good thing if you aren't going to go to flat tops/reduce compression in some way.
I still think about Ford, Mustang, EFI, 5.0L mappable computers and how they might be adapted to the 4.5L on up sHARk engines for tuning, shiftpoint, additional power, Diablo chip sets, availability and cost ... someday...
This idea of yours is not a new one, I would try talking to the guy's who have added SC's or Turbos to their 928's to see what issues ,cures, and hardware they used as thier 'PUMP' systems evolved they could save you a heap of grief, and developement time.
Go for it!
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
09-27-2002, 07:17 AM
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I once test-drove a Callaway Scirocco Turbo..
It had the infamous "microfueler", and performed flawlessly.
-It should have; it weighed 2000 lbs and had nearly 200 hp~
For years and years during college this car and the Dodge Omni GLH Turbo were my heroes. Believe me, I had both mapped out and intensely compared!
[928's were some impossibly exotic car for me at this point...]
My best friend at the time had an '86 Cougar XR7 turbo [155 hp from 2.3 liters and 3100 lbs], and we raced our cars [Me in the stock 90 hp Scirocco....] around the deserted roads west of Daytona Beach. One epic night, we discovered that an '85 Scirocco and an '86 Cougar were pretty evenly matched- I easily won in the curves, but he pulled away on the straights.
College was great~
Well, Roy flies for Fedex now and I don't. But I remember spending an afternoon in the library at Embry Riddle reading about how some group in Austria [I think] had mounted two "magnachargers" onto a 2-valve shark. The result was less than aesthetic, and only one was built [a 928 with a silly bulging 1960's hood? Oh come on....!], but it was apparently fast.
Oh well....
N
'85S25SP
It had the infamous "microfueler", and performed flawlessly.
-It should have; it weighed 2000 lbs and had nearly 200 hp~
For years and years during college this car and the Dodge Omni GLH Turbo were my heroes. Believe me, I had both mapped out and intensely compared!
[928's were some impossibly exotic car for me at this point...]
My best friend at the time had an '86 Cougar XR7 turbo [155 hp from 2.3 liters and 3100 lbs], and we raced our cars [Me in the stock 90 hp Scirocco....] around the deserted roads west of Daytona Beach. One epic night, we discovered that an '85 Scirocco and an '86 Cougar were pretty evenly matched- I easily won in the curves, but he pulled away on the straights.
College was great~
Well, Roy flies for Fedex now and I don't. But I remember spending an afternoon in the library at Embry Riddle reading about how some group in Austria [I think] had mounted two "magnachargers" onto a 2-valve shark. The result was less than aesthetic, and only one was built [a 928 with a silly bulging 1960's hood? Oh come on....!], but it was apparently fast.
Oh well....
N
'85S25SP
09-27-2002, 02:11 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Normy:
<strong>But I remember spending an afternoon in the library at Embry Riddle reading about how some group in Austria [I think] had mounted two "magnachargers" onto a 2-valve shark. The result was less than aesthetic, and only one was built [a 928 with a silly bulging 1960's hood? Oh come on....!], but it was apparently fast.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Here is a picture of TWO roots-style blowers installed on an '84 16-valve shark. This installation was performed by Strosek back in the mid-80's.
Obviously, this is a rather involved installation that would be well outside of the capabilities of the "average" owner's home garage (unless you have a machine shop and metal-fabricating capabilities at home), and this will never be duplicated for $1000 either....
But it does show what can and has been done by others.
(Thanks to Nicole for the above photo!)
Brad
'78 <a href="http://www.p-caronline.com/directory/showngo/" target="_blank">928 euro</a> 5 speed
928 Owners Club
<strong>But I remember spending an afternoon in the library at Embry Riddle reading about how some group in Austria [I think] had mounted two "magnachargers" onto a 2-valve shark. The result was less than aesthetic, and only one was built [a 928 with a silly bulging 1960's hood? Oh come on....!], but it was apparently fast.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Here is a picture of TWO roots-style blowers installed on an '84 16-valve shark. This installation was performed by Strosek back in the mid-80's.
Obviously, this is a rather involved installation that would be well outside of the capabilities of the "average" owner's home garage (unless you have a machine shop and metal-fabricating capabilities at home), and this will never be duplicated for $1000 either....
But it does show what can and has been done by others.
(Thanks to Nicole for the above photo!)
Brad
'78 <a href="http://www.p-caronline.com/directory/showngo/" target="_blank">928 euro</a> 5 speed
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09-27-2002, 05:04 PM
#11
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[quote]
Here is a picture of TWO roots-style blowers installed on an '84 16-valve shark. This installation was performed by Strosek back in the mid-80's.
<hr></blockquote>
I wonder if those are actually roots blowers, or if they are screw type superchargers. They look like they are very low profile.
Externally the intake doesn't look like it was designed to do more than facilitate the mounting of the blowers. 5.0 'stangs seem to have good results with the newer screw-type superchargers, I wonder if this might be an option. It seems that you could take a stock S4 manifold, cut off the plenum at the base of the runners, and fabricate an adapter for the S/C to sit on.
Simple.
-Adam Birnbaum
'88 S4
Here is a picture of TWO roots-style blowers installed on an '84 16-valve shark. This installation was performed by Strosek back in the mid-80's.
<hr></blockquote>
I wonder if those are actually roots blowers, or if they are screw type superchargers. They look like they are very low profile.
Externally the intake doesn't look like it was designed to do more than facilitate the mounting of the blowers. 5.0 'stangs seem to have good results with the newer screw-type superchargers, I wonder if this might be an option. It seems that you could take a stock S4 manifold, cut off the plenum at the base of the runners, and fabricate an adapter for the S/C to sit on.
Simple.
-Adam Birnbaum
'88 S4
09-28-2002, 01:05 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by atb:<strong>I wonder if those are actually roots blowers, or if they are screw type superchargers. They look like they are very low profile.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hi Adam,
I dug out a B&M Supercharger spec book I've had kicking around. They offer three models that all have an overall height of only 5.92" which is quite compact. (The three models have different output capacities based on the "body" and rotor length, height is unchanged.) The rotor lobes are straight, not helical. True screw compressors are VERY expensive.
[quote]more from Adam's post:<strong>It seems that you could take a stock S4 manifold, cut off the plenum at the base of the runners, and fabricate an adapter for the S/C to sit on.
Simple. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, simple.... <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" />
but it *is* possible !
Brad
'78 <a href="http://www.p-caronline.com/directory/showngo/" target="_blank">928 euro</a> 5 speed
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Hi Adam,
I dug out a B&M Supercharger spec book I've had kicking around. They offer three models that all have an overall height of only 5.92" which is quite compact. (The three models have different output capacities based on the "body" and rotor length, height is unchanged.) The rotor lobes are straight, not helical. True screw compressors are VERY expensive.
[quote]more from Adam's post:<strong>It seems that you could take a stock S4 manifold, cut off the plenum at the base of the runners, and fabricate an adapter for the S/C to sit on.
Simple.
</strong><hr></blockquote>Yes, simple.... <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" />
but it *is* possible !
Brad
'78 <a href="http://www.p-caronline.com/directory/showngo/" target="_blank">928 euro</a> 5 speed
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10-01-2002, 03:47 PM
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Anyone would like to share information on how centrifugal superchargers are usually mounted on 928's? Having looked at the installation photos on e.g. <a href="http://www.f-a-s-tonline.com" target="_blank">www.f-a-s-tonline.com</a> and <a href="http://www.projekt928.com," target="_blank">www.projekt928.com,</a> my observations are as follows. Can anyone confirm these and answer my unanswered questions? I am myself quite interested in the f-a-s-t kit, though the price is pretty high. Anyone have any experiences on the kit?
- The blower is mounted high at the front of the engine, forward from the oil filler neck
- To get more space for the blower, the twin electric fans (talking about those MY's which have those) are removed from behind the radiator and are replaced with a single big fan in front of the radiator. Correct? Can you fit in a single fan that will provide enough cooling air flow?
- How is the blower mounted? How and at what points is the mounting bracket attached to the engine? The water pump looks like the only available attachment point, but surely you cannot use that? The force on the supercharger drive belt would rip the pump off the block?
- How big power increases can the stock fuel pump handle? Larger injectors are used in the f-a-s-t kit, how much extra power can they handle?
Best regards,
Niklas Kampe
Finland, Europe
928 S4 5-speed manual 1987
- The blower is mounted high at the front of the engine, forward from the oil filler neck
- To get more space for the blower, the twin electric fans (talking about those MY's which have those) are removed from behind the radiator and are replaced with a single big fan in front of the radiator. Correct? Can you fit in a single fan that will provide enough cooling air flow?
- How is the blower mounted? How and at what points is the mounting bracket attached to the engine? The water pump looks like the only available attachment point, but surely you cannot use that? The force on the supercharger drive belt would rip the pump off the block?
- How big power increases can the stock fuel pump handle? Larger injectors are used in the f-a-s-t kit, how much extra power can they handle?
Best regards,
Niklas Kampe
Finland, Europe
928 S4 5-speed manual 1987
10-01-2002, 05:47 PM
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I think the fast kits uses the fan mounting places and one water pump bolt. I saw on an australian site two toyota superchargers on a ford v8 and he was running like 15 pound of boost in it. The only problem i see is the relocation of the throttle body? I am sure i could have an intake welded there are some shops near that do intakes for mustangs get a keene bell supercharger, the one where the air intake is at the back and move the throttle body there and then lower the rest of the intake. then the linkage would have to be reworked. And relocation of the MAF. in my car the AFM but i am planning on converting to a MAP system. If you needed extra fuel you could use 1-2 cold start injectors so they would open at wide open throttle. or stage them.<a href="http://www.kenne-bell.com/" target="_blank">web page</a>
Well if anyone else has anymore ideas? I would use the toyota or gm roots supercharger they have been capable of putting out about 10-12psi.
Well if anyone else has anymore ideas? I would use the toyota or gm roots supercharger they have been capable of putting out about 10-12psi.
10-02-2002, 02:16 PM
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The most economical way to get a bit of forced induction is with a centrifugal blower. Don't spend your time trying to fit a turbocharger in the engine compartment. The engine bay is already tight, worse after turbos are installed. Keep the boost below 5 lbs and you might be able to get by with an adjustable regulator and some large flow injectors.