Headlights Not Retracting
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From: TX
Headlights Not Retracting
83S, US model, a new "project" car to me, and it has a problem with the headlights retracting.
They pop-up fine when the headlight switch is turned, the lights come on, and everything seems to work fine......
Until you turn the switch to "off". The headlights go out, but they don't retract.
So, I took off the COVER of the relay to see what makes it "tick". Interestingly enough, if I push down on the upper left contact in the relay, it completes the circuit and down come the headlight pods.
So obviously, the relay isn't activating that circuit. I've tried 2 different relays, and they both do the same thing, so I'm thinking the relay just isn't getting the "power" to close that particular circuit in the relay.
All that said, any ideas on why the relay doesn't seem to be getting the "signal" to close the circuit??
Thanks, Barry
They pop-up fine when the headlight switch is turned, the lights come on, and everything seems to work fine......
Until you turn the switch to "off". The headlights go out, but they don't retract.
So, I took off the COVER of the relay to see what makes it "tick". Interestingly enough, if I push down on the upper left contact in the relay, it completes the circuit and down come the headlight pods.
So obviously, the relay isn't activating that circuit. I've tried 2 different relays, and they both do the same thing, so I'm thinking the relay just isn't getting the "power" to close that particular circuit in the relay.
All that said, any ideas on why the relay doesn't seem to be getting the "signal" to close the circuit??
Thanks, Barry
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Joined: Jan 2002
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From: Maryland
I can add only that the headlights won't come down when the ignition key is switched off. There have been postings about loose key cylinders causing a loss of contact. You can try lightly wiggling the key and see if it helps.
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From: TX
Well, this is all with the key turned on, both while the engine is running and while just the ignition is turned on. I don't think it's a key or ignition switch issue.
The PO did some pretty creative wiring, so just about anything is possible.
What makes the wiring even MORE interesting is that this is an "83S" car, with front and rear clips from a "93 GTS", which includes all the headlight wiring. So in some cases, the wires are color-coded different. It's almost like I need a "go-by" car to see what the heck is "supposed" to be wired to what...... :-(
Some things work, and others...... (I'm shaking my head here)
The PO did some pretty creative wiring, so just about anything is possible.
What makes the wiring even MORE interesting is that this is an "83S" car, with front and rear clips from a "93 GTS", which includes all the headlight wiring. So in some cases, the wires are color-coded different. It's almost like I need a "go-by" car to see what the heck is "supposed" to be wired to what...... :-(
Some things work, and others...... (I'm shaking my head here)
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Barry:
Been there done that. Relay is suspect, but wasn't it for me. Why it would work when manual contact is made - don't know.
Your exact symptoms; but for me, the headlight motor had gone bad - specifically, there are "fingers" within the motor that tell the motor the position of the lights and when to stop turning.
Years of wear takes its toll and the signal wasn't getting through. Scrapped a used one from a local junkyard for $20 and it works fine - with the old relay.
BTW, make sure that the rubber cap to the motor is in place; stuff gets in without it and, in my opinion, hastened my motor death.
Been there done that. Relay is suspect, but wasn't it for me. Why it would work when manual contact is made - don't know.
Your exact symptoms; but for me, the headlight motor had gone bad - specifically, there are "fingers" within the motor that tell the motor the position of the lights and when to stop turning.
Years of wear takes its toll and the signal wasn't getting through. Scrapped a used one from a local junkyard for $20 and it works fine - with the old relay.
BTW, make sure that the rubber cap to the motor is in place; stuff gets in without it and, in my opinion, hastened my motor death.
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From: TX
There is the round **** on top I use to lower the pods, but no rubber cover.
So it's possible the motor is bad, even though the lights snap right up when they are supposed to?? If I take the motor out, can I take it apart to see if all of the fingers are intact??
So it's possible the motor is bad, even though the lights snap right up when they are supposed to?? If I take the motor out, can I take it apart to see if all of the fingers are intact??
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From: TX
Sadly, I can't even get to it until next week at the earliest, but I'm hoping to get a clue where to start here.
I'm hoping somebody jumps in and says, "oh yeah, this is easy, just check for 12v on terminal #xx, and if yes, it's "this", or if not, it's "that".
Don't worry, there is PLENTY to do on THIS car.....
I'm hoping somebody jumps in and says, "oh yeah, this is easy, just check for 12v on terminal #xx, and if yes, it's "this", or if not, it's "that".
Don't worry, there is PLENTY to do on THIS car.....
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From: Ball Ground, GA
Barry,
On the output shaft of the motor/gearbox, there is a copper-covered disk with arcs cut away, and fingers that contact the disk. When a copper section is under one of the fingers, it acts as a switch in the "on" position; when there a bare (non-copper) section is under the finger, it acts as a swith in the "off" position. These on/off signals tell the relay when the lamps are up and when they are down, and the relay sends power to the motor to make it move in the appropriate direction.
Sounds as if the fingers or disk may be dirty, or there may be a bad connection betwee the motor and the relay.
Best suggestion is to take the motor apart carefully, and clean and lube everything, and check all of the wiring connections.
On the output shaft of the motor/gearbox, there is a copper-covered disk with arcs cut away, and fingers that contact the disk. When a copper section is under one of the fingers, it acts as a switch in the "on" position; when there a bare (non-copper) section is under the finger, it acts as a swith in the "off" position. These on/off signals tell the relay when the lamps are up and when they are down, and the relay sends power to the motor to make it move in the appropriate direction.
Sounds as if the fingers or disk may be dirty, or there may be a bad connection betwee the motor and the relay.
Best suggestion is to take the motor apart carefully, and clean and lube everything, and check all of the wiring connections.
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From: Attleboro, MA
Barry,
I used to have a different problem but I think it's in the same vein. My headlights would come on but would not raise. If I manually raised them, they would then work normally for a while. I removed the motor no less than 5 times and cleaned all the contacts and disk and even bent them so that they'd have more contact force on the disk. I traced the circuit logic (not fun - the relay circuit is very hard to follw) and couldn't find any obvious problem. I finally decided to replace the relay at $90 but that didn't fix it either.
The only part of the system thatI didn't try to work on was a set of diodes in the headlight motor that are in series with the up/down signals. I was going to replace them but decided to just try and re-resolder them. It's been over a month now and the motor hasn't acted up since. It may not be your problem but it won't cost much to try this (and it's probably a good idea to do while your in there).
BTW- I tried the same approach on my cruise ctrl box (as is noted in some other posts) but I wasn't so successful there... still no cruise.
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">
I used to have a different problem but I think it's in the same vein. My headlights would come on but would not raise. If I manually raised them, they would then work normally for a while. I removed the motor no less than 5 times and cleaned all the contacts and disk and even bent them so that they'd have more contact force on the disk. I traced the circuit logic (not fun - the relay circuit is very hard to follw) and couldn't find any obvious problem. I finally decided to replace the relay at $90 but that didn't fix it either.
The only part of the system thatI didn't try to work on was a set of diodes in the headlight motor that are in series with the up/down signals. I was going to replace them but decided to just try and re-resolder them. It's been over a month now and the motor hasn't acted up since. It may not be your problem but it won't cost much to try this (and it's probably a good idea to do while your in there).
BTW- I tried the same approach on my cruise ctrl box (as is noted in some other posts) but I wasn't so successful there... still no cruise.
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">
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From: TX
Well, everything in the motor seems clean, so I'm back to where I was.
Here are the connections IN the motor:
1- Blue wire
2- Brown wire
3- Yellow/Green wire
4- Green wire
The wiring TO the motor are as follows:
1- White/Black
2- Brown/Red
3- Yellow/Green
4- Red/Black
Is the wiring for all mid-80's cars the same??
I guess I didn't realize that the motor/gearbox actually controlled the signals the rest of the system gets, so if I can't figure this out, I'll probably buy a new motor and work back from there.
Which wire "triggers" the relay that actually lowers the pods??
Thanks for all of your help.
Barry
Here are the connections IN the motor:
1- Blue wire
2- Brown wire
3- Yellow/Green wire
4- Green wire
The wiring TO the motor are as follows:
1- White/Black
2- Brown/Red
3- Yellow/Green
4- Red/Black
Is the wiring for all mid-80's cars the same??
I guess I didn't realize that the motor/gearbox actually controlled the signals the rest of the system gets, so if I can't figure this out, I'll probably buy a new motor and work back from there.
Which wire "triggers" the relay that actually lowers the pods??
Thanks for all of your help.
Barry
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From: TX
Okay, this has gotten REALLY frustrating.
Put in a new motor, a new relay, and also found the prior-owner had short-circuited the red wire and the green-black wire (WHY would he do THAT??) behind the headlight switch.
Anyway, I am STILL in a situation where the lights pop-up fine, turn on and off fine, but do not retract.
What is the "trigger" wire that signals the lights to go down, and do I need to ground it, or do I need to apply power to it??
Help!!!
Thanks, Barry
Put in a new motor, a new relay, and also found the prior-owner had short-circuited the red wire and the green-black wire (WHY would he do THAT??) behind the headlight switch.
Anyway, I am STILL in a situation where the lights pop-up fine, turn on and off fine, but do not retract.
What is the "trigger" wire that signals the lights to go down, and do I need to ground it, or do I need to apply power to it??
Help!!!
Thanks, Barry
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From: Seattle - it's not Hell, but you can see it from here!
did they ever retract for the PO after his creative wiring project? or were they working for you when you got it and they just stopped?
also, you have only 4 wires at the motor? the '83 diagram shows 4, the '93 diagram shows 5. where exactly are the wires pliced together? it also looks as if the '83 / '93 relays are wired differently.
still looking...
also, you have only 4 wires at the motor? the '83 diagram shows 4, the '93 diagram shows 5. where exactly are the wires pliced together? it also looks as if the '83 / '93 relays are wired differently.
still looking...
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From: Attleboro, MA
Barry,
I can't remember the exact logic of the circuit but I think I made some notes in one of my manuals... I'll look for it tonight.
If memory serves (this may be wrong), the two middle wires on the headlight motor are tied to a rotating contact strip inside the gearbox. One wire loses power in the up postion (and cuases the motor to stop in the up position) and the other loses power in the down postion stopping the motor in that position. The problem is that the contact strip can be a positive or negative source and it's state(+ or -), I think is controlled by the relay. I think thats why there are diodes in the motor. What I think happens is the wire that DOESN'T lose contact, is the feed for the reverse of whatever state the headlights are in currently. Example (headlights up, one wire loses power to stop the motor the other hot wire is tied to the switch/relay that would cause the lights to go down when then switch is turned off and vise versa). I found the circuit EXTREMLY difficult to follow.
Just a thought, I'd pull the fuse box and make sure that the wires going to the back of headlight relay are all fully plugged in. They are simple female spede connectors that snap into the backside of the fuse panel. I have one spade connector that had a tendacy to push out when the relay is inserted. If the retract feed wire is not plugged in, I think that may cause what your seeing.
I can't remember the exact logic of the circuit but I think I made some notes in one of my manuals... I'll look for it tonight.
If memory serves (this may be wrong), the two middle wires on the headlight motor are tied to a rotating contact strip inside the gearbox. One wire loses power in the up postion (and cuases the motor to stop in the up position) and the other loses power in the down postion stopping the motor in that position. The problem is that the contact strip can be a positive or negative source and it's state(+ or -), I think is controlled by the relay. I think thats why there are diodes in the motor. What I think happens is the wire that DOESN'T lose contact, is the feed for the reverse of whatever state the headlights are in currently. Example (headlights up, one wire loses power to stop the motor the other hot wire is tied to the switch/relay that would cause the lights to go down when then switch is turned off and vise versa). I found the circuit EXTREMLY difficult to follow.
Just a thought, I'd pull the fuse box and make sure that the wires going to the back of headlight relay are all fully plugged in. They are simple female spede connectors that snap into the backside of the fuse panel. I have one spade connector that had a tendacy to push out when the relay is inserted. If the retract feed wire is not plugged in, I think that may cause what your seeing.
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From: Seattle - it's not Hell, but you can see it from here!
john,
you got it right. the "down track" (what i call it) in the motor has 12v whenever the key is on. but it's off the end of the track, so it has no ground. the "up track" is touching and as soon as the lights are turned on it the "down track" goes to 0v and the "up track" gets 12v. motor runs until the arm runs off the track. it still has 12v though, just not touching the disk, so no ground. it's just waiting for power to be switched the other way.
ever try to turn the lights down manually while they're on? the **** will whip out of your hand and they'll stay up. you're just turning it to the contact point, which always has power.
there's something funny in Barry's '83 to '93 wire graft. [per the wire diagrams] on the early cars one of the two wires that power the motor is internally grounded. on the later cars both wires run to the relay.
you got it right. the "down track" (what i call it) in the motor has 12v whenever the key is on. but it's off the end of the track, so it has no ground. the "up track" is touching and as soon as the lights are turned on it the "down track" goes to 0v and the "up track" gets 12v. motor runs until the arm runs off the track. it still has 12v though, just not touching the disk, so no ground. it's just waiting for power to be switched the other way.
ever try to turn the lights down manually while they're on? the **** will whip out of your hand and they'll stay up. you're just turning it to the contact point, which always has power.
there's something funny in Barry's '83 to '93 wire graft. [per the wire diagrams] on the early cars one of the two wires that power the motor is internally grounded. on the later cars both wires run to the relay.