DoubleNutz

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by BrendanCampion:
<strong>Does the 996 have front Dual A-arms - the most advantageous for geometry? What about the rear suspension?

I am asking because the 996 is a big jump from the 993, or so many say. The 993 and earlier 911ss had Crap for suspension, but Porshce did Miracles with them.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Brendan, I hate to disapppoint you but the 993 was the first breed of 911 that was offered with the 928's Weissach suspension.

Are you totally certain you want to make such a strong statement about the 993?

DoubleNutz

Let me say this from the perspective of a 928 and 996 owner- Most of the content presented here so far is fiction or strong guesses at best. The 928 has a wonderful suspension however, Porsche began building 911 (Type 993) with 928 suspensions in 1995. With a number improvements since then, the 996 with PSM (Porsche Stability Management) is positively light years in front of the best handling 928 suspension ever put into production. I say this as an avid fan of the 928 and current driver of the 996C4. There positively in NO comparision between the two cars. The early issues that plaguesd original rear engine 911's simply no longer exist in the Type 996. The 911 after 95 has become much more of an effortless car to drive with many of the mannerisms of the 928 and after 1999 most (if not more) of all of the 928's luxury. After the 2002 996 was produced, the 996 in simply the Carrera 2 has as much power as the 928GT at 325HP and beginning this year with the new 996GT3 not trumping the 928GTS in normally aspirated power at 385HP in something less than 3100 pounds of Porsche.

The pricepoint for the 996 has dropped considerably. A good one with reasonanbly low mileage and still under warranty in the Carrera 2 can be had for just over 50K.

Personally, I think the 996 is the finest hybrid of 928 and 911 ever made into one Porsche. If you can afford it, I would higly recommend the 996 and buying the latest model you can afford. If the 996 is not an option I would suggest a good 928GTS or GT.

Just my .928 cents

BC

Thank you Pat for Clearing that up. I will rephrase that to PRE 993. And as might be noticed, I did say Miracles. I did remember that at some point our suspension (engineered for our 77 introduction, but invented, what? in 71? )
was put on the 993.

Your last two posts were informative, thank you again.

BC

I have thought of the dropping values of the 996, but if I get one, it has to be a turbo.

Have you driven a 3.6 Turbo from 94?

Brent 89-GT

I have to agree with Pat. I was trying to make the point that the 996 has become a great GT and hardcore track car in the same package. It is a sophisticated package that offers comfort and speed with less wieght than the 928 has to carry around.

I don't think you really need the turbo version. The 996 is a very fast car by any standards. The 3.6 turbo is two generations back as a 964 series car. Those are close relatives to the old 911. The only major improvement is the use of coil overs in place of the torsion bars. That is also a single big turbo that has noticable lag. That car is brutally fast, but brutal is a good word for the whole experience <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> I have always considered the 993 as the earliest 911 I would want to own as an "only Porsche". Obviously the fantasy fleet includes a few old 911's

On the other hand, a stroked GTS five speed would be a wicked tool <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />

Carlos

As I head for the bomb shelter, for $50K he can buy a brand new Z06 & abuse the hell out of any Pcar he can find for $50k. And on all the savings from the repairs he wont have to do, he can make it faster than any stock Porsche & most modified ones.

John..

Is it a coincidence, or does the new Corvette share the same driveline configuration as the 928?

Also, don't the 993+ 911 series cars share a similar rear suspension design?

There is nothing "old" about the 928's suspension, yes the car weighs a bit, but the suspension is still as good as or batter than a lot of modern high performance cars.

You can always add horsepower...

Brent 89-GT

I'm not so sure Carlos, you better be runnin for that bunker <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> With $50k into a 944 Turbo, I would fear NO vette. Heck, with $50k to spend you could show up in a stroked GTS, the Z06 would really struggle with that one. The notion that the Z06 makes a reliable track car right off the showroom floor is a myth. There is a huge industry out there that revolves around keeping vettes on the track. They are not as dead reliable out there as a modern Porsche. Sure a new GT3 is twice the money as the Z06 but, I would bet my money on the Porsche beating the snot out of the Z06 on the track, and yes, I would bet it would do it for at least twice as long.

mark kibort

Dont forget that I compete against 996s all the time. You better bring a 996 GT3 cup car if you are boing to beat my 928!!! Actually, in all seriousness, the 996 is a great car. the 993 was a big move in the right direction by porsche. But lets not forget the weight increase of the 4 wheel drive models. Yes, the 928 has a longer wheel base, big deal. Guess what, so does the BMW M3!!!!! But the 928 has what it takes to make it a great handling car, a very high end designed suspension (from a geometry perspective) and a 75-77" track width!!!!! this Wider is better, if you have heard that phrase before.

Just talk to Mark anderson in the higher end buck part of the scale and see how the GT3RS's feel about him either keeping up or beating them. If you want to beat a 928 on the track, you better bring a 100k car !!! The 928 is proven to do it with $20k for the non modifided level (my race 928), and $50kish for the highly modified. (ie stock cup cars vs GT3RS)

As far as vets go, my stock S4 is like a ZO6 in a lot of ways. (ie same hp, balance is close, etc) However, look at the costs, and look at what it takes to make the Z06 light?? my 2681 lb weight is just gutting ALONE. Abolutely no other mods. You want to get a Vet at this weight, you better replace the entire front end with aftermarket body panel sheets (thin fiberglass) and do countless other expensive things.

The 996 will weight 2500 2600 in change, so that is not that much difference to the 928 when stripped. Remember the C4 will weight in the 3300lbs stock, so it is very close to a 928 starting out before a diet.

The bottomline, the 928 is a great handling car. it is very close in performance to any 993 or 996 by any measure (if you are talking S4 or GTS) Sure, alot depends on the driver, but Ill tell you first hand, if you are not racing professionally, or high end club, both cars are very close and its a matter of personal preference. I prefer a 928 from a cost to performance perspective. but I would love to run a Cup car in club and pro racing. Remember, my 928 S4 is ONLY Gutted with an exhaust sytem. I was able to beat 2 996 Cup cars at a sligtly lower weights too!! Remember, these are $120k cars!!! Toss a gutted 996 standard model, with simular mods, and guess how it would have done.

In summary, the 928 is a great handling car. IN stock form, it does carry a little extra weight, bt its design no where near refects its age. (and it is OLD !!!) The 996/993s have a lot of many of the 928 design elememnts. There are many differences, but many simularities. head to head, their performance numbers vs a 928 are as close as their original sticker prices!! If you dont believe me, visit the track one of these days when Mark Anderson or I am competing.
Trust me. in the pits, many folks are surprised!

MK

mark kibort

NOT true!!! The old muscle cars are heavy and have solid axles. (not to mention the aerodynamic deficiencies) I regulary beat 500-600HP american muscle cars from that era. Just look at the SCCA times for this kind of class and those kind of cars. now where near where the 928 is, in just gutted form!

why are you talking $25k for brakes , engine, suspension. all you need is a set of headers for 330ish to the wheels (close to 400hp), gut the car and the brakes and suspension is PERFECT. Remember, stock brembos!!!! Remember, 928s suspension geometry is hard to beat!!! just get a $2k max suspension of dual adjustables and some $200 heavy springs and you are DONE!! You want to beat $100k cars, just get a $20k stroker and you will beat most cars out there. Remember, Mark Anderson has proved this on the higher end.

928 has a longer wheel base and a WIDER track. it is a great handling car for track or street. Its got a very stiff chassis, great geometries, easy to make lightweight, with its Stock aluminum body panels, and you dont need special camber kits and bolt ons to get the suspension race ready. Pretty darn hard to beat for even twice the money!!!!

mk

MK


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by ErnestSw:
<strong>I drove a 69 Mustang Mach I 4bbl 351 for a couple of years in the late 80s. No matter how much money you put into ANY 69 Mustang (including a Boss 429), you'll never get the capability of a modern Mustang. That goes for the 928 as well. If you spend 25K on the suspension, brakes, engine and etc. what you'll have is no longer a 928 but a wannabe 996 with a longer wheelbase and more weight.
The 928 needs no apologies for what it is, but it's a 30+ year old design that was ahead of its time and time has marched on.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">

John..

I'd rather have my 928 than a new 996, save the twin turbo or GT2.

I have even considered a 993, but why? My car will handle nearly as well, and it will make a lot more torque and HP than a normally aspirated stock 993.

Best of all, it is paid for. The $3,500 I am putting into it is small coin compared to selling it and trying to replace it with something better.

To get the level of performance I'll have, I would need to drop at least $50,000 for a replacement.

Lagavulin

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Remember, my 928 S4 is ONLY Gutted with an exhaust sytem.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">all you need is a set of headers for 330ish to the wheels (close to 400hp)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Mark, I'm sure your car dynos at what you say it does. However, to attain those numbers, it would appear that your engine cannot be stock sans an exhaust system.

Is it possible that before you bought your famous Bonneville Flats S4 that the PO may have dropped in GT cams and/or something else?

330 rwhp is nowhere close to the rwhp numbers I've seen for stock S4's: 250's to 270's. And it seems that headers make little or no difference on the numbers.

I am not trying to flame you by no means! All I'm trying to do is rationally account for your great rwhp numbers.

Is there the slightest chance the engine was modded before you got it?

If you believe it was not modded prior to you getting it, how do you explain it dynoing so well?

Regardless, that's one strong running S4!