srv

..it was blown up by Projekt928.

As some of you know, I will be supercharging my '87. As a result, I've been doing lots of research including searches right here on our board.

Of particular interest was this thread:

<a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=14&t=002934" target="_blank">http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=14&t=002934</a>

I remember it clearly as I had originally read it right after I bought my Shark and became a Rennlist member. Lots of heated he-said she-said stuff, and lines were drawn in the sand. The saga seemingly ended on '..it’s unfortunate what happened to The Black GTS, but let the results of the White GTS speak for itself.' With that, the moderator killed the thread.

I was disappointed it was killed; how are we to know the outcome of the much publicized White GTS? Also, as there were plenty of accusations flying back and forth, which side ended up being ‘right’?

Well, I found out yesterday (..Saturday) that during a dyno run by Projekt928 (..I do not know the date it happened), The White GTS blew up from a lean condition.

So apparently, the members who were trying to warn others about Projekt928 were correct in their assessment. Yet during the time of that thread, those same members were catching more flak than a B-17 over Germany.

As chris928 stated in the final post, “If the white car succeeds, it is a success for the entire 928 community. If it fails, it is a failure for us all...”

How true.

Buying and installing a supercharger is a big investment in both time and money. Plus, the whole process should be lots of fun; after all, you’re getting ready to strap 100+ horsepower onto your car!

My question is, didn’t anyone else know the fate of The White GTS until now? If it was known, then why wasn’t the knowledge posted, especially after such a passionate thread?

I thought we are supposed to be looking out after one another, to help fellow 928 owners choose the best place to get their car serviced and to buy the best parts from. After all, we do keep track of “Our Ebay Fraud Buddy”:

<a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=14&t=004025" target="_blank">http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=14&t=004025</a>

Why didn’t that happen here?

Kaz

That is truly awful. SRV, that didn't happen here or on another notable southern california 928 message board because of bad judgement first and probably embarrassement later. In fact you don't so much as see Erics once beloved name mentioned anymore over there. Fair weather "friends" indeed.

Looks like I felt comfortable putting up a $100 bucks saying the car didn't run right. Well I certainly didn't want to hear about a problem of this magnitude and had sincerely hoped the owner took his car out of there and somewhere reputable. Anyone want to pay up?

bcdavis

People just can't discuss these things without getting personal...

If it was your car, and it blew up, you would be saying that the shop owner is an a-hole, and that no one should do business with him, etc... But the truth is that there are a lot of factors involved. It is no way to assure that nothing will go wrong with something like this... The owner may be a nice guy as well. The main question I would ask, is this: Is Projekt928 rebuilding the engine at their own expense? Or are they asking for more money? If the person with the car is willing to let it be a test platform, and accepted the risks, then that is fine. Live and learn... But if Projekt928 was taking people's money, for "completed" supercharger installations, and they then screwed it up, then they need to make it right... Time is also a factor. No one is expecting a supercharger install to take a year to do. Honesty is the key. Projekt928 advertised the kit, as well as a price for installing it. So if I pay the price up front, and they blow up my engine, I would expect them to fix it. If they don't, then I would be on this board badmouthing the shop too. If I buy a kit, and ask them to "experiment" with it, and something goes wrong, that is just the price of learning how to do these things... I think it will be funny, however, if all these "private individuals" who are doing it themselves, get their superchargers running well. I still think time will tell what is the best setup. Which engines last, etc...

But seriously, just because a shop has problems, or something goes wrong, does not mean the person is an a-hole. But if they lie to you, or fail to fix their f-ups, then I have a problem with them, and will jump on the bandwagon of giving them sh*t...

I don't know enough about this situation to pass judgement...

Kaz

Brian, good points. Chances are slim we will hear from the owner of the white car and about none that anyone except those directly involved will hear from the mechanic himself.

Not my car, engine, or money so I'll butt out now.

Randy V

First I'd heard of it - most unfortunate, if this is true.

Next conspiracy theory,srv?

Z

[quote]Originally posted by bcdavis:
<strong>If it was your car, and it blew up, you would be saying that the shop owner is an a-hole, and that no one should do business with him, etc... But the truth is that there are a lot of factors involved. It is no way to assure that nothing will go wrong with something like this.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That is true. Two GTS's with apparently problems two times though? I'm sure that Projekt928 will get all the bugs worked out sooner or later with enough attempts. So, who's going to be the one to try next?

bcdavis

I think the point is that if you are getting the *first* FAST kit, or the *first* Huntley kit, or the *first* Projekt928 kit, you had better be prepared for the possibility of problems. The point is that these vendors should not say it is a totally "bolt-on", "no problems", "no worries", kind of thing. It is a modification that these engines, and intakes, and drivetrains, were not designed for. It was not made and tested at the factory. It is an "experimental" kit, until such time as a lot of people are running them with no problems. That is why I am waiting until those who want to take the risks, have got all the bugs worked out... I would never risk my engine, or 6-10 grand, on a supercharger kit, until it had been running successfully in 10 or more cars for a few years, with no problems... If I had a spare car, or spare engine, or a "spare" 10 grand, I might do it... But no one should take these "kits" as anything other than a gamble. Risk versus payoff... You can get a pretty sweet horsepower payoff... But if they get something wrong... B O O M!!!!!!! So whomever out there decides to buy a kit, and bolt it on, or pay some shop to bolt it on, do not come crying to the board, saying it did not work, and they blew up your engine... You have been warned!

Tim Murphy

That's too bad about the fate of this car. I sure would like to know more about what all took place. When I was working the bugs out of my car I had some times when the car would go pretty lean while on the dyno and I would just get out of the gas before I hurt aything. I sure would like to know what is meant by "blew it up". Did they fail a piston, rod, head gasket, or what? If the car were to go lean and create detonation I would like to think that the knock sensors would have saved it.
I would agree that there is a huge learning curve with supercharging (or any modifying) and I have two years worth to prove it. I'm sure the first stroker motor that Devek did wasn't perfect the first time but I'm sure if you got one from them today it would be pretty well sorted out. I did some not very nice things to my car with this project and quite possible I was just lucky I didn't do any major damage. I did kill three mass air sensors at $600 each but I learned how not to do that anymore. With that all said, I feel very confident I could duplicate my setup and have it work right out of the gate. Would I just send it the first one to someone and hope for the best? No I wouldn't. I would want to have a little closer supervision of the installation and tuning. I would think that if I were to personally assist in seting up 2 or 3 cars to be confident the system could be duplicated, a fool proof kit could be put together for a novice wrench to install. I'm pretty sure I could take the system off my car and install it onto another car in less than a days worth of work.
Anyway, sorry to those of you that asked me questions on the thread I started but my computer died soon after I posted and I just got this one setup.
Tim 88s4 5spd SC/AWIC

Fastest928

I firmly believe that folks who sell performance products hav ethe responsibility to prove beyond doubt, that the products that they advertise and sell actually WORK! DEVEK lives by this rule. No product is sold unles first tested by us on our own 928's.

The first stroker kit was run in my 928 for over 30,000 miles and dyno'd to death, the engine was then disassembled and measured prior to sale of a single crank!

We had welded cranks, sleeved blocks, coated blocks, weldede and ground cams and spring packages, head packages and tested everyone on our 928s first. And not all the efforts worked out....so we do not sell failed R&D projects.

Nor do we advertise products on promise...without first actual reliability testing or performance characterization.

I got into the 928 market cause I got screwed, and lost an engine. Back then, it cost me close to 30K to fix my engines..yes, happened twice, all because I believed a 928 supplier "claiming" that a certian chip and cam package would net me a 100 hp gain.

Being the engineer I am, I dyno'd the car first, had the cams and chip professionally installed, dyno'd the 928 again....10 hp gain!

Ok, a fool and his money are easily parted. So I just shrugged my shoulders and let the $8500 price tag go..

But soon thereafter, the f%$#@ cams came apart, flakes of metal wedged between the pistons and clyinder walls, wore through the lifters, and totally trashed my engine.

BTW, This is the first engine I lost...a second soon followed due to springs....Not one vendor stood up and even offered to help.

After spending $ with a metalurgist, I learned the reason why you can't weld the 928 cams and have them work on the street with the reliability of a stock cam!


Then we decided that the fraud must end...hence DEVEK. If we do not test it first, we do not sell it. If it does'nt make power, we don't sell it.

So for all the folks wanting to jump on the power train, best ask a few simple questions:

1 Have you actually tested the product on a 928? And if so, for how long and under what conditions...street, race, 1 week, 6 months, 10 miles or 100K miles? If they can't answer these questions, then walk away FAST!

2 How much power did you gain? If there was a gain, what other parts did you need? Did you make power with the heads or do you also need a controller, headers, 93+ super octane gas, exhaust, etc.

3 If something fails, what will you do? Remmeber, in Cal there is legal NO RECOURSE on performance enhancing products!

4 Get some references of folks who have used the exact product you are planning on buying.

Hope this helps. Sounds like I am selling DEVEK, yes and no, I am pushing a strong "truth in advertising" focus, and it just so happens, that is the way we have directed the performance side of DEVEK.

As for the fate of the white GTS, only the customer can tell that horror story.

Slowly stepping off the soap box.

Marc
DEVEK

srv

Randy...

Next conspiracy theory? You're a funny guy!

I'm simply asking a question regarding a hot-potato of a topic. We're talking about $30k+ GTS's here.

Let's keep it simple:

Why didn’t anyone come forward and tell us that Munck blew up The White GTS, especially after the much publicize Black GTS fiasco?

After all, in reading ‘Spooled Up GTS’, there are plenty of Munck’s friends who post on this board who have not said a word about it.

Why is that? Randy, help me out here. Is there a term that can describe this type of situation?

And yes, I am pissed because I had to find out about this on my own, and I wasn’t even trying. $8,000 is a sum to spend wisely. Thanks guys for the heads-up; you rule! <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />

GoRideSno

SRV,
To add to the body of knowledge we have been amassing here lately about supercharging, will you tell us exactly what you know in regards to this blown engine? I would like to know what happened so that I/we may avoid making the same mistakes. This is the 2nd shark I've heard of being blown up but with no details of the events.
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Andy K

Jim V

Marc sums up most of my thoughts on this situation.

I don't know the whole story with these 2 GTS's,everything I've read hear has been 3rd party info for the most part and alot finger pointing from one side defending from the other.

I see alot of talk about supercharging lately and will add the following:
You'd better be d@mn sure you've got your fuel delivery in order before you go running around full boost high RPM full throttle whether on the dyno or the street.
Lean-out on a boosted engine is your number 1 concern and while in may not blow up; the damage is done every time it happens.
If you don't have reliable A/F,EGT, and boost guages - get them they are a heck of alot cheaper than a new engine.
Until that thing is absolutely sorted out if you're not pulling and reading your plugs more than you're driving start doing it, the engine you save will be your own

Z

From what I've seen, when "blew up" and "running lean" are both used in the same sentence when talking about superchargers or turbos, "broken piston(s)" usually becomes part of the same discussion. More specifically broken ring lands. The knock sensors will retard timing if knock is detected, but thay can't perform miracles. If you've messed up bad enough, they will not save you. If you play with fire and don't know what you're doing, you can get burned.

[quote]Originally posted by marc@DEVEK:
<strong>No product is sold unles first tested by us on our own 928's.</strong><hr></blockquote>

But Marc, it's sooo much cheaper to test on customers cars.

BTW, A crack in the welded cam lobe is at least one reason Sterling Gee's vario-cam stroker motor 928 isn't running yet.

Brent 89-GT

I went and read all of the posts in that old thread. The conclusion I have come to goes along with Marc's response as well.

What appears to have happened is that you had a pretty good mechanic in Mr Munck. He has helped a lot of people out, seemingly at his expense at times. There is nothing wrong with that. Where Munck appears to have gone wrong is in trying to become an R&D specialist as well, using customers cars

Now if it was with those customers knowledge, then they paid the price knowingly. The owner of the black GTS however did not appear to be a willing research canidate. That is where the trouble began. Now it could have been a misunderstanding, not likely but possibly.

I get the feeling that Munck was selling his ability to install and tune these systems. From what I have read, he appears to be in over his head on this. Maybe with proper funding and time he could do it. It sounds as though he definately lacks the funding to play the R&D game. I think it is poor business practice to experiment with other peoples cars. Like I said before, maybe you had willing participants.

I think that it takes more than just a good mechanic to pull off a good running, reliable supercharger system. It takes some real research and testing. That is where DEVEKs philosophy comes in. THAT is the attitude ALL tuners should have.

I hope the Eric Munck supporters can see the difference. It is not an indictment of his character. It does seem to illustrate his limitations where major mods are concerned.

Adding boost to any car is a risky proposition. Even the big boys have failures. I blew two headgaskets on a mildly boosted 951, running a major manufacturers mass flow system. Now since I was the one who bought and installed the kit and, I was the one who ran the wee out of it on the track I don't feel that I have anyone to blame. I learned a few things and, would do it a little differently but, I think that is part of the game. The point of this paragraph is the, no matter who makes the mod, how well it is tested, YOU are accepting some amount of risk by installing it on YOUR car.

All that said, I hope somebody does come up with a reliable SC kit for the 928. I will definately be lined up for that <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />

Tim Murphy

Jim V pretty much hit it on the head, it's all about the air to fuel ratio with forced induction. A couple points into the lean area and not only does the power drop way off but you risk harming the engine. A couple points into the rich side of life and the power loss is barely detectable and the engine is much happier. I really struggled with this from day one and at my last dyno I was pleased to see the AF values right at 12.0 pretty much through the run. This is slightly rich but it was right where I wanted/needed it to be.

Tim