Supercharged s4
01-02-2003, 01:48 PM
#2
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Tim,
We were all impressed with the performance numbers, but it was hard to believe the car made that much power with the lower boost levels, I think that is all we were saying.
Nonetheless, I'm sure the car is extremely fast.
I'm getting ready to dynojet my twin turbo 928 as well as run my boost up to about 10 or 11 psig with the use of an adjustable pressure valve boost controller. I have the luxury of simply turning a hand dial to add more boost, no pulleys to change.
Seeing as you run 9 or so psig of boost with your compression ratio, I feel safe with 10 or 11 psig with the 8.5:1 compression in my car. I expect about 400, maybe a bit more at the crank, but who knows, the Dynojet will tell the real truth.
I run stock injectors with a piggy back dual injector setup into the compressed air stream pipe feeding my throttle body. I also have the ability to ramp up the fuel pressure with an adjustable regulator (automatically happens when the vacuum lines turn into pressure lines), and when I go to tune the car at the higher boost levels, I will probably start out at 50+ psig on the rails, then dial fuel out until I get it just right on the wide band O2 sensor.
Nice to know there is yet another shark running a bone stock lower end with positive manifold pressure. I have a friend with a centrifugal blower on a 93 Mustang Cobra. He claims 390 HP to the wheels on about 9 psig of boost..., no charge cooling whatsoever.
We were all impressed with the performance numbers, but it was hard to believe the car made that much power with the lower boost levels, I think that is all we were saying.
Nonetheless, I'm sure the car is extremely fast.
I'm getting ready to dynojet my twin turbo 928 as well as run my boost up to about 10 or 11 psig with the use of an adjustable pressure valve boost controller. I have the luxury of simply turning a hand dial to add more boost, no pulleys to change.
Seeing as you run 9 or so psig of boost with your compression ratio, I feel safe with 10 or 11 psig with the 8.5:1 compression in my car. I expect about 400, maybe a bit more at the crank, but who knows, the Dynojet will tell the real truth.
I run stock injectors with a piggy back dual injector setup into the compressed air stream pipe feeding my throttle body. I also have the ability to ramp up the fuel pressure with an adjustable regulator (automatically happens when the vacuum lines turn into pressure lines), and when I go to tune the car at the higher boost levels, I will probably start out at 50+ psig on the rails, then dial fuel out until I get it just right on the wide band O2 sensor.
Nice to know there is yet another shark running a bone stock lower end with positive manifold pressure. I have a friend with a centrifugal blower on a 93 Mustang Cobra. He claims 390 HP to the wheels on about 9 psig of boost..., no charge cooling whatsoever.
01-02-2003, 02:28 PM
#3
Burning Brakes
OK you supercharged / turboed guys, I have some questions?
My next project is for a Vortech supercharger T-trim setup on my '85 AT. (AT is the operative word here).
I have questions on what happens to my vacuum arrangement when I go to positive manifold pressure.
Is there anyone out there that can give me some parameters around supercharging an automatic?
Especially when it comes to dealing with vacuum in the system.
Also, what about computer arrangements.
I will not be adding a intercooler at this time. I am only interested in generating 5 or so pounds of boost. I will change to the 40lb injectors but I want to make this as simple and reliable as possible with no ugly surprises.
Cheers
My next project is for a Vortech supercharger T-trim setup on my '85 AT. (AT is the operative word here).
I have questions on what happens to my vacuum arrangement when I go to positive manifold pressure.
Is there anyone out there that can give me some parameters around supercharging an automatic?
Especially when it comes to dealing with vacuum in the system.
Also, what about computer arrangements.
I will not be adding a intercooler at this time. I am only interested in generating 5 or so pounds of boost. I will change to the 40lb injectors but I want to make this as simple and reliable as possible with no ugly surprises.
Cheers
01-02-2003, 03:20 PM
#4
Bernie,
Your 928 AT is a Mercedes tranny; in fact, it is the same tranny as my supercharged SEC uses. You will experience very hard shifting under heavy acceleration, but under normal acceleration everything will be the same. You must use a blow-off valve to achieve the smooth shifting.
Your 928 AT is a Mercedes tranny; in fact, it is the same tranny as my supercharged SEC uses. You will experience very hard shifting under heavy acceleration, but under normal acceleration everything will be the same. You must use a blow-off valve to achieve the smooth shifting.
01-02-2003, 04:05 PM
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I'm really not sure why there seems to be so much skepticism about Tim's numbers. There's a horsepower calculator for supercharged applications at <a href="http://www.superchargeronline.com/hp_calculator.asp" target="_blank">http://www.superchargeronline.com/hp_calculator.asp</a>
I'd only consider it a very rough guide, but if you plug in the information for Tim's car, the numbers he made seem well within reason. Using a normally aspirated rear wheel horsepower of 285, 8 psi of boost, 92 octane gas, and only a two core intercooler for the input of the calculator, it shows about 450 rwhp. The 285 rwhp figure isn't out of line by any means for a 5-speed S4 with some exhaust modification and fuel ratio tuning, and is well within reason based on the dyno results at <a href="http://members.rennlist.com/jkomiak/" target="_blank">http://members.rennlist.com/jkomiak/</a>
[quote]Originally posted by John:
<strong>Seeing as you run 9 or so psig of boost with your compression ratio, I feel safe with 10 or 11 psig with the 8.5:1 compression in my car. I expect about 400, maybe a bit more at the crank, but who knows, the Dynojet will tell the real truth.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'd *guess* you should be okay with 10-11 psi of boost, but don't use Tim's car as your basis for that. You didn't mention having an intercooler, and if you do it may or may not be as efficient as Tim's is. You also don't have S4 cylinder heads or pistons in your car. There are some significant design features in the S4 stuff as they relate to supercharging. Some of these same features in the stock S4 parts are things that were specifically designed into BMW's formula 1 turbo engine. I'm not saying that the stock S4 parts are exactly identical to the BMW formula 1 pieces, but some of the significant design features relating to use under boost are.
I'd only consider it a very rough guide, but if you plug in the information for Tim's car, the numbers he made seem well within reason. Using a normally aspirated rear wheel horsepower of 285, 8 psi of boost, 92 octane gas, and only a two core intercooler for the input of the calculator, it shows about 450 rwhp. The 285 rwhp figure isn't out of line by any means for a 5-speed S4 with some exhaust modification and fuel ratio tuning, and is well within reason based on the dyno results at <a href="http://members.rennlist.com/jkomiak/" target="_blank">http://members.rennlist.com/jkomiak/</a>
[quote]Originally posted by John:
<strong>Seeing as you run 9 or so psig of boost with your compression ratio, I feel safe with 10 or 11 psig with the 8.5:1 compression in my car. I expect about 400, maybe a bit more at the crank, but who knows, the Dynojet will tell the real truth.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'd *guess* you should be okay with 10-11 psi of boost, but don't use Tim's car as your basis for that. You didn't mention having an intercooler, and if you do it may or may not be as efficient as Tim's is. You also don't have S4 cylinder heads or pistons in your car. There are some significant design features in the S4 stuff as they relate to supercharging. Some of these same features in the stock S4 parts are things that were specifically designed into BMW's formula 1 turbo engine. I'm not saying that the stock S4 parts are exactly identical to the BMW formula 1 pieces, but some of the significant design features relating to use under boost are.
01-02-2003, 04:42 PM
#6
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Hi Tim,
Welcome to the boards!
Your car is awesome...
Everyone on this board is very impressed to say the least as the dyno chart does not lie...
'davor' and Carl from the 'Freshwater Sharks' 928 GLOC group (..I just joined yesterday) say you are the man to talk to regarding the later model supercharger installs as I'm seriously considering one too, thanks to you and your car. (..ok, I'm almost positive I'm going to it!)
I'll take advantage of your offer to ask questions...
Which Vortech are you running? Is that the same unit which comes with the FAST kit?
As for your supercharger bracket(s), are you using the FAST brackets, or did you end up making your own? If you made your own, how did you go about doing it?
What size are your 'larger injectors'?
How did you go about designing and fabricating the aftercooler?
Do you use a blow-off valve?
Would be you recommend buying a supercharger kit, or do-it-yourself?
Was it difficult to dial it in once everything was in place, and, did it pass the smog test?
I'm really excited about this turn of events for 928 performance gains as I was really turned off at how expensive it is to get more power out of them otherwise.
$2,000 for cams? Ridiculous; especially after considering that you're not getting that much more power for all that money spent. Not only that, after installation you're going to fail the smog test.
Your time is most appreciated!
Hi Z,
I'm glad you're back! Would you care to expound on these "significant design features in the S4 stuff as they relate to supercharging"? It sounds like it would be most interesting, and an excellent opportunity to learn something new.
Welcome to the boards!
Your car is awesome...
Everyone on this board is very impressed to say the least as the dyno chart does not lie...
'davor' and Carl from the 'Freshwater Sharks' 928 GLOC group (..I just joined yesterday) say you are the man to talk to regarding the later model supercharger installs as I'm seriously considering one too, thanks to you and your car. (..ok, I'm almost positive I'm going to it!)
I'll take advantage of your offer to ask questions...
Which Vortech are you running? Is that the same unit which comes with the FAST kit?
As for your supercharger bracket(s), are you using the FAST brackets, or did you end up making your own? If you made your own, how did you go about doing it?
What size are your 'larger injectors'?
How did you go about designing and fabricating the aftercooler?
Do you use a blow-off valve?
Would be you recommend buying a supercharger kit, or do-it-yourself?
Was it difficult to dial it in once everything was in place, and, did it pass the smog test?
I'm really excited about this turn of events for 928 performance gains as I was really turned off at how expensive it is to get more power out of them otherwise.
$2,000 for cams? Ridiculous; especially after considering that you're not getting that much more power for all that money spent. Not only that, after installation you're going to fail the smog test.
Your time is most appreciated!
Hi Z,
I'm glad you're back! Would you care to expound on these "significant design features in the S4 stuff as they relate to supercharging"? It sounds like it would be most interesting, and an excellent opportunity to learn something new.
01-02-2003, 06:27 PM
#7
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On the older cars...once vacuum goes to boost a few things happen:
Fuel pressure is increased by about 10 psig to the fuel rail.
Ignition timing is retarded back because the vacuum advance line becomes a pressure line.
All of the other systems on my car remain in standard working order, since the "on boost" time is generally pretty short lived.
I don't have too much fear of increasing the boost levels one or two psig. My car has a rather large charge cooler out front, probably 20" X 5" X 3" or so. I think I'll be alright. As a baseline, I might just dyno the car at the 8.5 psig and see where it is....maybe even do just some fine tuning of the fuel to get the most out of it and call it quits....not too sure just yet.
The key is adding enough fuel and taking out enough timing to make it run like you want it to.
Fuel pressure is increased by about 10 psig to the fuel rail.
Ignition timing is retarded back because the vacuum advance line becomes a pressure line.
All of the other systems on my car remain in standard working order, since the "on boost" time is generally pretty short lived.
I don't have too much fear of increasing the boost levels one or two psig. My car has a rather large charge cooler out front, probably 20" X 5" X 3" or so. I think I'll be alright. As a baseline, I might just dyno the car at the 8.5 psig and see where it is....maybe even do just some fine tuning of the fuel to get the most out of it and call it quits....not too sure just yet.
The key is adding enough fuel and taking out enough timing to make it run like you want it to.
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01-02-2003, 07:22 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by srv:
<strong>Would you care to expound on these "significant design features in the S4 stuff as they relate to supercharging"? It sounds like it would be most interesting, and an excellent opportunity to learn something new.</strong><hr></blockquote>
At least some of them in dealing with the combustion chamber alone are that in an S4, the block, heads, and cylinder walls are all aluminum, which transfers heat more readily than cast iron or steel would. This reduces the heat retention there that would increase the likely hood of detonation. The exhaust valves are spaced relatively far apart, which also reduces the potential hot spot that could form between them if they were closer together, and again helps to prevent detonation. There are four valves, with a large area of contact with the head relative to their size, to transfer their heat to the head. The combustion chamber in the heads is hemispherical, with four valves and the spark plug in the center. The piston top is dished with a spherical shape. When the piston comes up it compresses the air/fuel mixture and forces it towards the center, where the spark plug is. The area that the air/fuel mixture is then compressed into is basically like a sphere. A sphere has the smallest surface area to volume ratio, which is why bubbles are round. That means less surface area to absorb heat from combustion, create hot spots, and contribute to detonation. With the spark plug in the center, the flame front travels radially outwards across the air/fuel mixture, with a more even dispersion of the flame front and power produced. The flame front is basically unobstructed as it moves throughout the combustion area. The flame front moving through the combustion chamber would be more similar to the ripples moving outwards if you dropped a rock into the center of a bowl of water.
Compare this to something like a classic small block Chevy design. Cast iron block and cylinder heads retain more combustion heat on the surfaces of the combustion chamber. There are two valves to transfer heat to the head, which means there's less contact area relative to their size for heat transfer to the head, compared to four valves having the same flow area. That means the valves stay hotter and again cause greater potential for detonation. Two valves also means that the movement, turbulence, and dispersion of the air/fuel mixture into the cylinder isn't going to be the same as a four valve head. The combustion chamber shape has a high surface area to volume ratio to absorb heat from combustion and then it remains hotter. The combustion chamber in the heads is not symmetrical, so has greater potential for hot spots. The spark plug is at one side, so the flame front has to travel across the combustion chamber, and reaches different edges of it at different times. The pistons have a dome, which is another potential hot spot. The piston dome impedes the smooth travel of the flame front. The pressure exerted by this disrupted and asymmetrical combustion isn't even across the combustion area. The flame front moving through the combustion chamber would be more similar to ripples from dropping a rock into water that's in an irregularly shaped container, with varying depths, protrusions and contours.
<strong>Would you care to expound on these "significant design features in the S4 stuff as they relate to supercharging"? It sounds like it would be most interesting, and an excellent opportunity to learn something new.</strong><hr></blockquote>
At least some of them in dealing with the combustion chamber alone are that in an S4, the block, heads, and cylinder walls are all aluminum, which transfers heat more readily than cast iron or steel would. This reduces the heat retention there that would increase the likely hood of detonation. The exhaust valves are spaced relatively far apart, which also reduces the potential hot spot that could form between them if they were closer together, and again helps to prevent detonation. There are four valves, with a large area of contact with the head relative to their size, to transfer their heat to the head. The combustion chamber in the heads is hemispherical, with four valves and the spark plug in the center. The piston top is dished with a spherical shape. When the piston comes up it compresses the air/fuel mixture and forces it towards the center, where the spark plug is. The area that the air/fuel mixture is then compressed into is basically like a sphere. A sphere has the smallest surface area to volume ratio, which is why bubbles are round. That means less surface area to absorb heat from combustion, create hot spots, and contribute to detonation. With the spark plug in the center, the flame front travels radially outwards across the air/fuel mixture, with a more even dispersion of the flame front and power produced. The flame front is basically unobstructed as it moves throughout the combustion area. The flame front moving through the combustion chamber would be more similar to the ripples moving outwards if you dropped a rock into the center of a bowl of water.
Compare this to something like a classic small block Chevy design. Cast iron block and cylinder heads retain more combustion heat on the surfaces of the combustion chamber. There are two valves to transfer heat to the head, which means there's less contact area relative to their size for heat transfer to the head, compared to four valves having the same flow area. That means the valves stay hotter and again cause greater potential for detonation. Two valves also means that the movement, turbulence, and dispersion of the air/fuel mixture into the cylinder isn't going to be the same as a four valve head. The combustion chamber shape has a high surface area to volume ratio to absorb heat from combustion and then it remains hotter. The combustion chamber in the heads is not symmetrical, so has greater potential for hot spots. The spark plug is at one side, so the flame front has to travel across the combustion chamber, and reaches different edges of it at different times. The pistons have a dome, which is another potential hot spot. The piston dome impedes the smooth travel of the flame front. The pressure exerted by this disrupted and asymmetrical combustion isn't even across the combustion area. The flame front moving through the combustion chamber would be more similar to ripples from dropping a rock into water that's in an irregularly shaped container, with varying depths, protrusions and contours.
01-02-2003, 08:44 PM
#10
Burning Brakes
Thanx Jim and John,
I have never installed a supercharger before so I am on that steep learning curve.
I have the 32 Valve S3 design and its an automatic.
What do I need to complete a non-intercooled supercharger job?
Bracket - got one
Pulley system - got one
Vortech T-trim - got one
40lb fuel injectors - no problem
various plumbing - no problem
So I need a blow-off valve - ok
What else to do a basic - 5psi blower install.
Remember, I'm not after a 500hp beast and my car is a automatic. I want to definately maintain street manners with the potential for stomp when required but streetability must come first. I'm not interested if I have to play puddin' foot all day long to get my car to shift properly.
I have no doubt that there are a lot of other cats on the board who are after exactly what I am. Not looking to create a monster here. If I can get my numbers into the high 3's or low 4's with reliability, I'll be a happy camper.
I also can't get by the giggle factor of that wonderful supercharger whine.........
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
I have never installed a supercharger before so I am on that steep learning curve.
I have the 32 Valve S3 design and its an automatic.
What do I need to complete a non-intercooled supercharger job?
Bracket - got one
Pulley system - got one
Vortech T-trim - got one
40lb fuel injectors - no problem
various plumbing - no problem
So I need a blow-off valve - ok
What else to do a basic - 5psi blower install.
Remember, I'm not after a 500hp beast and my car is a automatic. I want to definately maintain street manners with the potential for stomp when required but streetability must come first. I'm not interested if I have to play puddin' foot all day long to get my car to shift properly.
I have no doubt that there are a lot of other cats on the board who are after exactly what I am. Not looking to create a monster here. If I can get my numbers into the high 3's or low 4's with reliability, I'll be a happy camper.
I also can't get by the giggle factor of that wonderful supercharger whine.........
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
01-02-2003, 09:13 PM
#11
Burning Brakes
Hi Bernie,
Where did you get the Vortech supercharger, mounting bracket, and associated pulleys? Is it from FAST? Are they available piecemeal?
I'm in the same boat as you: I want a few more ponies but drivability and reliability come way before horsepower for me. If I can get a supercharged setup in the mid 300's that I set up *once* and never have to fiddle with again I would be extemely happy. In other words, its engineering and reliability have to be on par with the rest of the car (and I realize that's a tall order, something I consider beyond the reach of most aftermarket shops). If it's something I have to adjust and play with all the time, like having to tune the fuel pressure to deal with detonation as environmental conditions change or something, then forget it. My car will never see a dragstrip or racetrack, it's just for toodling around... I just want a bit bigger push in the seat of the pants!
Question for Tim: Is the supercharger driven off its own belt/pulley, or is it shared with the power steering and/or A/C? I've heard (OK, hearsay here) that the FAST kit shares the drive with both and overdrives them. Seems to me the best way, if it's feasible, is to leave all the existing pulley diameters alone and run the supercharger off its own belt. How does it work on your car?
I've also heard that the FAST kit's brackets are prone to flexing. Hearsay again. Tim, what light can you shed on this?
Finally, Tim, what are your impressions of reliability, streetability, and drivability with the supercharger? So far you're the only one who's got one and I'm very eager to hear your impressions!! How well do you think it would fit my goals?
Thanks to all!
Rick
Where did you get the Vortech supercharger, mounting bracket, and associated pulleys? Is it from FAST? Are they available piecemeal?
I'm in the same boat as you: I want a few more ponies but drivability and reliability come way before horsepower for me. If I can get a supercharged setup in the mid 300's that I set up *once* and never have to fiddle with again I would be extemely happy. In other words, its engineering and reliability have to be on par with the rest of the car (and I realize that's a tall order, something I consider beyond the reach of most aftermarket shops). If it's something I have to adjust and play with all the time, like having to tune the fuel pressure to deal with detonation as environmental conditions change or something, then forget it. My car will never see a dragstrip or racetrack, it's just for toodling around... I just want a bit bigger push in the seat of the pants!
Question for Tim: Is the supercharger driven off its own belt/pulley, or is it shared with the power steering and/or A/C? I've heard (OK, hearsay here) that the FAST kit shares the drive with both and overdrives them. Seems to me the best way, if it's feasible, is to leave all the existing pulley diameters alone and run the supercharger off its own belt. How does it work on your car?
I've also heard that the FAST kit's brackets are prone to flexing. Hearsay again. Tim, what light can you shed on this?
Finally, Tim, what are your impressions of reliability, streetability, and drivability with the supercharger? So far you're the only one who's got one and I'm very eager to hear your impressions!! How well do you think it would fit my goals?
Thanks to all!
Rick
01-02-2003, 09:18 PM
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Bernie,
I have a supercharged 87 auto (same basic setup as Tim's) so I can help you out with the automatic part of your questions. At WOT while under boost, the transmission is going to shift firmer than it would without the supercharger. The difference is not dramatic (it doesn't feel like it's about to rip the gears out or anything), but it is definitely snappier. When you are just cruising around you will never notice the difference.
Once you get everything done, I think you will be surprised at how much you don't notice the blower is there.....unless you floor it. I have had mine installed for close to two years/10K miles and find it does not negatively effect the drivability in any way.
Randy
87 S4 Auto Black/Black
Supercharged & Intercooled
I have a supercharged 87 auto (same basic setup as Tim's) so I can help you out with the automatic part of your questions. At WOT while under boost, the transmission is going to shift firmer than it would without the supercharger. The difference is not dramatic (it doesn't feel like it's about to rip the gears out or anything), but it is definitely snappier. When you are just cruising around you will never notice the difference.
Once you get everything done, I think you will be surprised at how much you don't notice the blower is there.....unless you floor it. I have had mine installed for close to two years/10K miles and find it does not negatively effect the drivability in any way.
Randy
87 S4 Auto Black/Black
Supercharged & Intercooled
01-02-2003, 10:08 PM
#15
Rennlist Member
Tim,
As we all know, dyno's do not lie. Missing facts really screw up the value of what people have accomplished....I sure know how that goes! Glad you came out, surprised you did not come out sooner.
There is a local customer with a whipple charged 928 and a water to air ic that has been running for years, makes good power....I would love to tell that tale, but it is not mine to tell
So, thanks for the additional "fact"...now it makes bit more sense.
Reducing the intake air temp 30 or so degrees below corrected standard (STP) is worth ~1-2% per 10 degree F, so about 12-25 hp total....this is the reason folks ice the manifold or the ic to make big power. Or dyno'ing a close to cold engine once just to pop the big numbers. Just spraying water on a 944T ic will gain you about 10 - 12 hp on a 300 rwhp motor! We did one a few years ago. Spray fast!
I take it that the ic uses a separate radiator and pump for cooling? BTW, just how cold was the water in the L-T-A ic? 40ish deg F?
A friend is building a superchared engine using freon as the cooling medium since we do not have alot of 40 degree days out here in california, not a 928 though.
Keep up the good work and good luck.
Marc
DEVEK
As we all know, dyno's do not lie. Missing facts really screw up the value of what people have accomplished....I sure know how that goes! Glad you came out, surprised you did not come out sooner.
There is a local customer with a whipple charged 928 and a water to air ic that has been running for years, makes good power....I would love to tell that tale, but it is not mine to tell
So, thanks for the additional "fact"...now it makes bit more sense.
Reducing the intake air temp 30 or so degrees below corrected standard (STP) is worth ~1-2% per 10 degree F, so about 12-25 hp total....this is the reason folks ice the manifold or the ic to make big power. Or dyno'ing a close to cold engine once just to pop the big numbers. Just spraying water on a 944T ic will gain you about 10 - 12 hp on a 300 rwhp motor! We did one a few years ago. Spray fast!
I take it that the ic uses a separate radiator and pump for cooling? BTW, just how cold was the water in the L-T-A ic? 40ish deg F?
A friend is building a superchared engine using freon as the cooling medium since we do not have alot of 40 degree days out here in california, not a 928 though.
Keep up the good work and good luck.
Marc
DEVEK