My Shark Doesn't Go and other Timing problems
03-02-2003, 11:24 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
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My Shark Doesn't Go and other Timing problems
My question to the forum is: are the camshaft sprokets master splined to the shaft?
I have reconstructed my timing system and have since been unable to get my car to fire off. She cranks like a son of a gun and there is good spark going to the plugs. There's fuel in the tank (sat at half for several months, has since been filled and water remover treated), and the pump is sending fuel to the rails. I have not flow tested the injectors yet, but there is a fuel smell in the engine bay after each attempt at light off. The airway is not apparently blocked. Bottom line is, it doesn't work.
When I set it all back up, I made sure the timing sprocket marks were aligned with the mark on both sides and the crankshaft was at TDC on the #1. I have already pulled the distributor and ensured it is pointing to the reference mark (#1 wire) when the engine is positioned as previously described.
Something I didn't notice before I took it all apart is the mechanical feeling (toothed gear movement) when I manually position the crankshaft. Is this normal? By the sound of things it is coming from the back of the engine (flywheel area) but I could be mistaken.
Any help at all would be great, and if anyone needs more details than that, I'll be glad to answer up. I have the feeling I'm missing some sort of fundamental principle of mechanics here, all things being equal this car should go.
HELP!
Tim
1981 US Spec 5 Speed
Shark Dead in the Water
I have reconstructed my timing system and have since been unable to get my car to fire off. She cranks like a son of a gun and there is good spark going to the plugs. There's fuel in the tank (sat at half for several months, has since been filled and water remover treated), and the pump is sending fuel to the rails. I have not flow tested the injectors yet, but there is a fuel smell in the engine bay after each attempt at light off. The airway is not apparently blocked. Bottom line is, it doesn't work.
When I set it all back up, I made sure the timing sprocket marks were aligned with the mark on both sides and the crankshaft was at TDC on the #1. I have already pulled the distributor and ensured it is pointing to the reference mark (#1 wire) when the engine is positioned as previously described.
Something I didn't notice before I took it all apart is the mechanical feeling (toothed gear movement) when I manually position the crankshaft. Is this normal? By the sound of things it is coming from the back of the engine (flywheel area) but I could be mistaken.
Any help at all would be great, and if anyone needs more details than that, I'll be glad to answer up. I have the feeling I'm missing some sort of fundamental principle of mechanics here, all things being equal this car should go.
HELP!
Tim
1981 US Spec 5 Speed
Shark Dead in the Water
03-02-2003, 11:30 PM
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From what you've implied in your text and in the name of the thread...I am led to believe that you think your timing is off. Question: Have you tried pulling a plug, re-attaching the plug wire, and cranking the engine while the plug touches metal in order to prove that you do indeed have spark? It kind of sounds like you don't.
Normy-
'85 S2 5 Speed
Normy-
'85 S2 5 Speed
03-03-2003, 12:12 AM
#3
Nordschleife Master
There is a key, that fits into a notch in the camshaft, and a similer notch in the pully, if thats what you mean.
I understand that it is possible to have a custom cut key to hold the pullys at a diffrent angle, but mine isn't like that. As far as I know there is no way to "adjust" the 16v camshaft timeing, other than moveing it a notch one way or the other on the belt. I haven't had it completely apart, so...
The crank shaft pully is the same way.
Qustion, did you get the harmonic ballancer on the right way? It can be put on backward, and IIRC, the key doesn't line up with TDC, or 180 degrees from TDC, so putting it on backward would throw the timeing off. It's possible to do. The harmonic ballancer should be such that the numbers are upright when your standing infrount of the car, looking at the engine.
Have to checked to see if the injectors are fireing? ie, listened for the click, click, click that they make. That or felt the fuel rail for the viberation they make. Make sure you didn't disconnect the Temp II sensor while you were working on the thing, if it's unpluged, my car doesn't run.
Finaly, make sure your timeing is close. A changed t-belt has been known to off set the ignition timeing off enough to make the engine not run. I haven't tryed this, but I've been told that if you pull the distributer, the rotor should point at a mark when the crankshaft is at TDC.
What exactly have you done to the car? Just chance the t-belt, rebuilt the H2O pump, and tensioner? Did it run before the t-belt job?
Good luck.
PS, you might not want to just pull a plug and see if it sparks. The system is suppost to make enough voltage that it COULD dammage the system, or dammage you. Play it safe, go down to the auto parts store and buy a spark tester.
I understand that it is possible to have a custom cut key to hold the pullys at a diffrent angle, but mine isn't like that. As far as I know there is no way to "adjust" the 16v camshaft timeing, other than moveing it a notch one way or the other on the belt. I haven't had it completely apart, so...
The crank shaft pully is the same way.
Qustion, did you get the harmonic ballancer on the right way? It can be put on backward, and IIRC, the key doesn't line up with TDC, or 180 degrees from TDC, so putting it on backward would throw the timeing off. It's possible to do. The harmonic ballancer should be such that the numbers are upright when your standing infrount of the car, looking at the engine.
Have to checked to see if the injectors are fireing? ie, listened for the click, click, click that they make. That or felt the fuel rail for the viberation they make. Make sure you didn't disconnect the Temp II sensor while you were working on the thing, if it's unpluged, my car doesn't run.
Finaly, make sure your timeing is close. A changed t-belt has been known to off set the ignition timeing off enough to make the engine not run. I haven't tryed this, but I've been told that if you pull the distributer, the rotor should point at a mark when the crankshaft is at TDC.
What exactly have you done to the car? Just chance the t-belt, rebuilt the H2O pump, and tensioner? Did it run before the t-belt job?
Good luck.
PS, you might not want to just pull a plug and see if it sparks. The system is suppost to make enough voltage that it COULD dammage the system, or dammage you. Play it safe, go down to the auto parts store and buy a spark tester.
03-03-2003, 09:08 AM
#5
Burning Brakes
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Yes, I've proven that there is indeed a spark. Last night as a matter of fact.
Virbus:
Things I've done since the car was dead:
I changed the water pump, timing belt, alternator, cap and rotor, and replaced several vaccuum lines. I did not remove the harmonic balancer (fancy thumbwork to get the belt on, but it works). I also replaced all the V-belts. The whole reason this happened was due to shoddy maintenance by the PO's mechanic (or the PO). I can't find out what he did, he's away on bussines for a while. What I discovered when the pump went was an old pump, and half of a new belt. It was grinding down on the carrier arm for the tensioner roller due to a damaged roller. Also, there were no carrier arm bushings in place, just the bolt.
Things I did before the car died:
I've replaced all the spark plugs recently and had the injectors cleaned. I also replaced the battery the very day the water pump went out.
I've set the engine to TDC and the rotor does point to the reference mark.
Virbus:
Things I've done since the car was dead:
I changed the water pump, timing belt, alternator, cap and rotor, and replaced several vaccuum lines. I did not remove the harmonic balancer (fancy thumbwork to get the belt on, but it works). I also replaced all the V-belts. The whole reason this happened was due to shoddy maintenance by the PO's mechanic (or the PO). I can't find out what he did, he's away on bussines for a while. What I discovered when the pump went was an old pump, and half of a new belt. It was grinding down on the carrier arm for the tensioner roller due to a damaged roller. Also, there were no carrier arm bushings in place, just the bolt.
Things I did before the car died:
I've replaced all the spark plugs recently and had the injectors cleaned. I also replaced the battery the very day the water pump went out.
I've set the engine to TDC and the rotor does point to the reference mark.
03-03-2003, 12:38 PM
#6
Burning Brakes
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Just a thought, anyone heard of the crank sensor or RPM sensor going out? Would this cause the same problem? I've been looking throught the blue book of Bosch, and they mention these components but don't say whether the L-Jet control uses them for anything but reference material.
Tim
Tim
03-03-2003, 04:51 PM
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I would closely check the plug wires for proper positioning on the cap. IMPORTANT you need to set the distributor to the #1 position with the crank at TDC and the CAMS at their alignment marks. It is possible for the crank to show TDC at the OT timing mark and the cams to not be at their alignment marks. Setting the distributor to the #1 position from this state will cause you to be 180 degrees off and the car will NEVER start. Remember the crank does two revolutions for every one revolution of the cams
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03-03-2003, 07:13 PM
#8
Nordschleife Master
OK, if you noticed my formor posts, here is what was suppost to go here.
Bruce, do you have experence with that? I wasn't aware you could "adjust" the distibuter off by 180 degrees. I thought the distributer could me moved maybe 10 degrees before or after TDC. If the rotor was 180 degree out of sink, I guess you could rig it, but hopefuly one would realize somethings wrong!
Hei, I saw my favorate word. "Vacuum" I can't spell it, but I still love it. Double check that you've got the correct line going to the distributer. There are two vacuum systems controling the engine. If you've got them backward, she won't run so well, or at all. IIRC, there are two nipples on the vacume retard/advance unit. Make sure they are right.
However, I have BAD news to tell you. If your final post you made it sound like your changeing the t-belt because the H2O pump went out, and ruined the belt. It is possible that your engine had valve pistion contact. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
If so, it wouldn't be the first one to do so. The easyest way for you to find out, is to do a compression test. If it fails, expect to pull the heads, replace the valves, lifters, and maybe the pistions. Big bucks!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
My experence was that the valves didn't hit the postion, BUT that doesn't mean that your won't.
I wish you good luck. You sound like you need it.
Bruce, do you have experence with that? I wasn't aware you could "adjust" the distibuter off by 180 degrees. I thought the distributer could me moved maybe 10 degrees before or after TDC. If the rotor was 180 degree out of sink, I guess you could rig it, but hopefuly one would realize somethings wrong!
Hei, I saw my favorate word. "Vacuum" I can't spell it, but I still love it. Double check that you've got the correct line going to the distributer. There are two vacuum systems controling the engine. If you've got them backward, she won't run so well, or at all. IIRC, there are two nipples on the vacume retard/advance unit. Make sure they are right.
However, I have BAD news to tell you. If your final post you made it sound like your changeing the t-belt because the H2O pump went out, and ruined the belt. It is possible that your engine had valve pistion contact. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
If so, it wouldn't be the first one to do so. The easyest way for you to find out, is to do a compression test. If it fails, expect to pull the heads, replace the valves, lifters, and maybe the pistions. Big bucks!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
My experence was that the valves didn't hit the postion, BUT that doesn't mean that your won't.
I wish you good luck. You sound like you need it.
03-03-2003, 10:14 PM
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ViribusUnits,
Maybe you didn't get my post. What I stated was that the timing marks on the harmonic balancer can be at TDC and the CAMS will not be at their algnment marks because the crank spins twice for every one rotation of the cams. You would in this case need to spin the crank another rotation to get the cams and crank at their alignment marks and then drop in the distributor so that the rotor would line up to the #1 plug wire position on the distributor cap. It would be impossible to be able to adjust the distributor to be 180 degrees out due to its limited adjustment slot. I know this because I have done my T belt twice and helped out with two others after the fact when the above mistake was made.
Maybe you didn't get my post. What I stated was that the timing marks on the harmonic balancer can be at TDC and the CAMS will not be at their algnment marks because the crank spins twice for every one rotation of the cams. You would in this case need to spin the crank another rotation to get the cams and crank at their alignment marks and then drop in the distributor so that the rotor would line up to the #1 plug wire position on the distributor cap. It would be impossible to be able to adjust the distributor to be 180 degrees out due to its limited adjustment slot. I know this because I have done my T belt twice and helped out with two others after the fact when the above mistake was made.
03-04-2003, 01:43 AM
#11
Nordschleife Master
Sorry Bruce, I didn't think that one would not realize that. I guess I figured that if the rotor was 180 degree out, and you'd just completed a t-belt change, you'd figure to turn the engine over once. Sorry, just seemed silly because I've never heard of anyone haveing troube with soemthing like that. Guess it could happen.
The L-jet 928s don't have a crank sensor. They "sniff" their rpm input from a feed from the transisterized ignition unit. IIRC, same feed the tach run off of. The transisterized ignition box gets it's timeing information from a magnetic pick up inside the distributer. The magnetic pick up is simply a wire coil shaped something like a doughnut, and it senses the possion from a 8 tiped star shaped magnet. Neat, simple, nearly bullet proof system.
If your getting sparks, the sensor is working. Finda a copy of the wireing diagram for your year, and make sure the L-jet is getting the pulsed feed.
Hope that helps.
Good luck
The L-jet 928s don't have a crank sensor. They "sniff" their rpm input from a feed from the transisterized ignition unit. IIRC, same feed the tach run off of. The transisterized ignition box gets it's timeing information from a magnetic pick up inside the distributer. The magnetic pick up is simply a wire coil shaped something like a doughnut, and it senses the possion from a 8 tiped star shaped magnet. Neat, simple, nearly bullet proof system.
If your getting sparks, the sensor is working. Finda a copy of the wireing diagram for your year, and make sure the L-jet is getting the pulsed feed.
Hope that helps.
Good luck
03-04-2003, 03:37 AM
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Tim,
Are you sure you installed the camshaft pulley correct?
This pulley can be turned with the wrong side against the engine, and then the TDC mark is not correct either
Are you sure you installed the camshaft pulley correct?
This pulley can be turned with the wrong side against the engine, and then the TDC mark is not correct either
03-04-2003, 09:40 AM
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Burning Brakes
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Aghh! Not valve contact!
I don't think that's it though. It was exceptionally fortunate what happened. The water pump didn't leak until I was pulling into my driveway, and the belt was intact (other than the fact that it was half gone). There were no teeth missing and it didn't appear to have jumped a sprocket. Also, the car was running fine when until I shut it down. To be sure, I'll check compression today after I triple check cam/crank synchronization.
I didn't remove the crankshaft pulley, or the camshaft sprockets. (Viribus) Thanks for the info on the L-Jet/Crankshaft sensor info.
I've manually/visually checked TDC by the 12" extension in the spark plug hole method. Thanks for the reminder Bruce.
The vaccuum lines coming off the distributor go to the throttle body. I have them positioned thusly: Advance (Top line) goes to the right, and Retard (bottom line) goes to the left. The inputs for the lines on the TB are directly adjoining each other. I'll double check the vaccuum schematic when I have a chance.
Thanks again for the help, any other sugge4stions are welcome.
Tim
1981 US Spec 5-speed
Praying it ain't valve contact.
I don't think that's it though. It was exceptionally fortunate what happened. The water pump didn't leak until I was pulling into my driveway, and the belt was intact (other than the fact that it was half gone). There were no teeth missing and it didn't appear to have jumped a sprocket. Also, the car was running fine when until I shut it down. To be sure, I'll check compression today after I triple check cam/crank synchronization.
I didn't remove the crankshaft pulley, or the camshaft sprockets. (Viribus) Thanks for the info on the L-Jet/Crankshaft sensor info.
I've manually/visually checked TDC by the 12" extension in the spark plug hole method. Thanks for the reminder Bruce.
The vaccuum lines coming off the distributor go to the throttle body. I have them positioned thusly: Advance (Top line) goes to the right, and Retard (bottom line) goes to the left. The inputs for the lines on the TB are directly adjoining each other. I'll double check the vaccuum schematic when I have a chance.
Thanks again for the help, any other sugge4stions are welcome.
Tim
1981 US Spec 5-speed
Praying it ain't valve contact.
03-04-2003, 09:43 AM
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One quick note concerning vacuum. It is most likely not a factor in wether or not your car will start. Vacuum problems will make it run badly or stall but rarely prevent it from starting. In fact the car will start and run (very roughly) with the air flow meter removed from the car, talk about max unmetered airflow. Checking the TDC with an extention will only get you halfway there, because in a four cycle motor the pistion goes to TDC twice in a cycle, once for compression and once for exhaust. That is why you MUST check for crank AND cam alignment marks for TDC. If you have the distributor aligned so that it is pointing to the #1 contact when the crank is at TDC and the cams aren't at their alignment marks as well, what is happening is the spark is being fired on the EXHAUST stroke and the car will not start. This is a very easy mistake to make and will drive some of the most determined home mechanics crazy. Trust me I have seen it before. Go back to the basics and be sure. It is very unlikely that you have bent valves, as the car was previously running. The day I picked my car up from the PO my timing belt failed from a bad timing belt replacement job. They had left the bushings off of the shoulder bolt as on your car, and the shoulder bolt failed. If you haven't already, replace your shoulder bolt just to be sure.
03-04-2003, 10:01 AM
#15
Burning Brakes
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Bruce
My car didn't die, I noticed the water pouring out from the water pump after I shut it down.
I concur on the vacuum issue; it's aweful hard to have vacuum problems if there is no vacuum being produced. I've mistakenly left my AFM unplugged after re-installation. The car runs...badly. After banging my head against the wall, it occured to me to check the spark plugs. There was all sorts of carbon fouling, which was due to the rich mix.
Something else occurs to me just now. I replaced the throttle idle microswitch. It seems to be adjusted correctly, and there is fuel being introduced to the cylinders. More and more I'm dreading this compression check.
Tim
Shark Dead in the Water
My car didn't die, I noticed the water pouring out from the water pump after I shut it down.
I concur on the vacuum issue; it's aweful hard to have vacuum problems if there is no vacuum being produced. I've mistakenly left my AFM unplugged after re-installation. The car runs...badly. After banging my head against the wall, it occured to me to check the spark plugs. There was all sorts of carbon fouling, which was due to the rich mix.
Something else occurs to me just now. I replaced the throttle idle microswitch. It seems to be adjusted correctly, and there is fuel being introduced to the cylinders. More and more I'm dreading this compression check.
Tim
Shark Dead in the Water