</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by TeufelHei:
<strong>Virbus:
Things I've done since the car was dead:
.......... I did not remove the harmonic balancer (fancy thumb work to get the belt on, but it works).......... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Ok, I did not recognise the above sentence - sorry
But I am still wondering how it is possible to get the belt in without removing the balancer (pulley)?

 

Um, IIRC, there was a guy that had his car not start on him, but would start at full advance on the distributer. It turned out to be a bad distributer. He later got it to start OK I'm not srue how, and I'm not sure if I rember corrently, but it would run very poorly with the vacume connected. Go figure.

Even if the vacuum system is not the problem, it was still worth a check. If I understand the system correctly, it starts produceing vacume the moment the engine starts turnning over.

The idle micro switch wouldn't effect a no start. All it does is modify the fuel so that none is intruduced over like 1800 rpm, so when you let of the throtal, she slows down like a desile. Under 1800 rpm, it allows fuel into the cylinders, so it should be burnable. If your still nervous about it. Pull the plugs off, keep them apart, and cover them with something. That should take the switch out of the loop and you don't have to worry about it. While your in there, might as well do the same to the WOT switch. IIRC, it can enrich the mixture so much, it makes it hard or impossible to start. Again, almost certainly not the problem, but...

Did you gap your new plugs? I know this is almost certainly not the problem, but it's worth a shot, cheap, and doesn't take long. I know when I bought my Bosch Platinum plugs, they were all gaped to the wrong measurement. They were extra wide. It MIGHT make a diffrence in a margional start, but probably not.

Question, is the engine dead, dead, or will she start up, run for a moment or two, and then die?

Good luck.

 

One quick check. You said you have spark so this cant be the problem but check it anyway. I have been having problems with my 79 running bad, not starting, then starting and dieing, and running bad again. I have been through everything and it ended up being the green wire from the distributor to the ignition box. My green wire was shorting onto itself causeing bad spark signals to the distributor. Sometimes it would short and other times it wouldnt. I removed mine and checked it out and sure enough if you twisted or moved the wire a certain way it would short out onto itself causeing no signal. I just got my new one today and will install this week.

Anyway its one more easy thing to check out.

 

That was me, VU...geez, I'm hurt you didn't remember - and the problem will be shortly resolved with a new distributor - I hope to report back once I've done the autopsy and found out what's wrong.

In the meantime, I would add "disconnect vacuum advance" and "check timing with a light at every step" to the factory workshop diagnostic procedure. Just because there is spark doesn't mean it's arriving at the right time.

Was the distributor removed at any point? Do the timing marks (both cams and pulley) arrive at the correct points when you rotate through a couple cycles manually? Did you confirm TDC not by probing the hole but by checking with your thumb for compression? Firing order and location on cap? Does this list ever end?

In short, did you do the workshop manual ignition procedure? If you pass, my money's on a belt misalignment or a distributor alignment problem.
Rule out the simple stuff before assuming the drastic to be true.

 

James is dead on. Once you find it, it will look "simple" and you will remember someone telling you to check it at the beginnng of the ordeal. That's what this is all about. Collective Memory Jogging for the good of all... - Ruf

 

Ok, here's an update and a theory.

I pulled the intake in order to re-inspect for an obstruction. No obstruction, but there was fuel pooled in the bottom of the throttle body. I triple checked cam timing relative to crankshaft position and it checks good (as usual). I used the "thumb" method as described by James, along with an extension.

This leads me to my theory and my question:
Fuel is being introduced at the wrong time, probably at TDC. When the rotor is positioned at the reference mark (firing on #1) on the distributor housing, the stator and pickup are aligned. Is this correct? My understanding is that the pickup tells the injectors when to fire. If they are aligned on TDC, then they are squirting at TDC right?

I checked the green wire for integrity (didn't meter it yet), and it's OK so far as I can see.

Anyone got any ideas?

Tim
1981 928 Comp Pkg
Shark dead in the water

 

Before I venture any further, could I ask for some more detail?

First, and sorry I have to ask this - this is an L-Jet shark, right? If so, the injection is a little more complicated than that (see related thread on L-Jet batch fire)...the pickup pulse is sent to the TSZ ignition unit, and from that the tach pulse is sent to the L-Jet brain and the tach. The L-Jet does some frequency division to determine the timing and duration of the injection pulses - fuel is delivered 2x to each cylinder.

Second, fuel pooled in the throttle body...i.e. upstream of the injectors? Seems very odd. Are the plugs fuel-soaked or blackened? Have you listened to each injector to confirm that they are firing?

Third, and forgive me if this sounds stupid - #1 terminal is the terminal just right (as you look at it) of the hold-down screw facing away from the engine. The rotor points to that terminal at TDC #1, correct?

We will all overcome this demon...

 

I still ask are you sure you have spark? Please explain what tests you have done to insure good solid spark. Sounds to me that you have fuel, even if it were spraying in at the wrong time you would get some type of backfire when cranking it over. Even if your timing was way off you still would get some type of backfire that is if you have spark.

I first checked to see if I have spark by hooking up my timing light to the ignition coil. Try cranking you should get the timing light to flash. Next hook up the timing light to each plug wire. It should flash at a slower rate than that of the coil. If you have spark at the wires pull a few plugs. Leave them inserted into your wires and ground the plug. Crank the engine over and see exactly how bright the flash is. It should be a fairly good spark. Try it both with the old plugs and a set of new plugs.

If you indeed have spark then you can pretty much cancel out any problems with the ignition brain, coil, etc....

If your testing stuff with your tester you might want to test all your plug wires. They should test at 3 ohms. Half of mine were way off and a few had no connection. The car did run however, but a little rough. I highly doubt plug wires is your problem but every little bit helps in getting the car to run perfect.

Now if you dont have spark when hooking the timing light up to the coil, then go after the green distributor wire and the ignition control unit. Most people forget about the little unit. Its located on the passenger side inner fender well just under the jump start terminal. No real way to test other than to borrow a known to be good unit and plug it in. I have been told that these units dont die very often.

Thats it for now.

 

Hei, something is WAY wrong.

First, the L-jet is a batch fire system. IT fires ALL the injectors at the same time. It works if the valve is closed or not. In other words, it's not possible to have it fire at the "wrong" time. Well, it could, but it wouldn't have the effect you discribe.

Second, the L-jet is a multi-port injector. The fuel is injected at the END of the intake manafold, right before the valves. Assumeing the air stream is headed in the correct diriction, there is no way that I can see it getting into the throtal body area.

I was thinking maybe a leaky cold start injector, untill I realised that the cold start injector is on it's own mannafold system, in the block. It does feed off of the throtal body, so I guess it's possible that the cold start injector is leaking, and then mannageing to trickle up aginst the way it's suppost to, and makeing it to the throtal body. On my car however, the cold start valve is below the aux. air vavle, and the port in the throtal body. I'm not seeing this as likely.

Now, motor oil can get there, as it's down stream of the PVC system. Motor oil can also be made to act ilike dirty gasoline, assumeing you've tryed to cold start enought times. I guess it's possible, but...

Are you getting clear or yellowish fuel in the TB? Or is it dirty, or discolored? Basicly, how do you know it's fuel?

This is getting more complex with each post!

Good luck.

 

This may sound really dumb, but when you did the thumb test for compression stroke detemination, was the rotor pointing to the same cylinder you were checking? (#1 I assume)? How about the one after that etc.?

It seems like you got the required elements. The thing should at least sputter! If not, as hard as it may be to accept, you don't have all the required elements. At least not at the same time. Timing really is everything.

What element (fuel, air, spark or compression ) could possibly be out of sync? What were you working on (timing belt change, right?) Start with the things that could go wrong while doing that job.

Sometimes we gotta assume that we are just stupid, and start over from there... I know I'm stupid, so it works for me!- Ruf

 

I am fairly sure that it is fuel. It is dirty, yellowish looking and smells heavily of ethyl alcohol. There is some oil in it, but primarily gasoline.

I'm going to go back to square one and try again. I've got a compression checker and a full featured automotive multi-meter to play with now, so I'm going to whip this thing.

Rufus, you are more than right. Timing is everything. I agree that there is some vital element missing. Either that or there is a parallel universe in my engine bay. Maybe I'll get the Nobel Prize for this. I'd spend the money on my Shark anyhow.

Godwilling, I'll be able to get it to do something soon. I'll post a new thread when I know what the hell is going on.

True wisdom is in knowing that you know nothing.
--Keanu Reaves Quoting Socrates "Bill and Teds Excellent Adventure"

Tim
1981 US Comp Pkg 5 Speed
Shark Dead in the Water

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by TeufelHei:
<strong>I am fairly sure that it is fuel. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Did you fill-up with diesel? <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" />

 

Nope, but wouldn't that have been funny?

In order for that to have happened I would have had to cosciously done so. Diesel pumps are well segregated from gasoline here in the states. Though if I lived in Europe, I would have thought this possible.

Tim