Garth S

Rog, yes - I prefer to pull the alt aside with the wires off the pressure sender, and spin off the oil filter. As you may also agree, the 4 worst bolts are above the AC compressor: on some cars, they are shorter than the rest ... and if not shortened, can be an absolute sob to remove. I have been known to run a M6 tap up there to improve future prospects
Even without dropping the X-member, the two per side directly above can be done with flat wrenches.

borland

Roger,

Please take photos of your torque wrench setup for those hard to reach bolts that you recommend tightening to 20 in-lbs.

ROG100

Borland,
Pictures are not required.
The set up is called "pulling hard on the end of a 10mm wrench until it feels goodantight or approx. 20 in lbs.
Roger

borland

You could try tightening them all in sequence, one sixth of a turn (one flat on the bolt head) each round, while checking a few assessible ones with the torque wrench, so as not to exceed 20 in-lbs...... until you have the same compression all the way around.

Then you could say "they are all at the same recommended torque".... and "good and tight".

checkmate1996

I am writing up a document on this whole process. Roger, maybe I can share with you what I have so we can come up with a comprehensive 'one-time' document on how to do pan gaskets.

So far, one gear wrench and 1/4" tools have worked for me. I agree with borland that once you get a few of the easy ones done using a torque wrench, you should have the approriate 'feel' to do the odd ones...

For me, all bolts have been removed w/o removing x-member. My next step is to remove the oil pan...

ROG100

Hi Brad,
Schocki already did a writeup IIRC when we did the first Real gasket change.
We dropped the OP without removing the cross member.
You might want to do a search to look at that and incorperate it into your writup.
If you need pictures of the real gasket and the OP i have some that may be useful.
Roger

checkmate1996

Ok, everyone quick update. I installed my oil pan with with carl's stud set. They finally came in after 5 weeks, but I think it was worth the wait. Question for those who have used the set. I torqued everything down to 25 in/lb. However, the locking nuts barely seem to be putting any pressure on the oil pan. Thoughts???

ROG100

how do you compensate for the torque to apply the locking action of the nuts.
It could take 25 in lbs just to turn the lock nuts.

You may have to re-evaluate the torque required to set the lock nuts on the gasket.

It is also possible, depending on the type of lock nut, that the crimp may not be iniform and require a different torque to turn it.

IMOO it is much more accurate to use bolts and washers along with locktite.
I will stick with the OE method.

borland

You could have measured the running torque to move the lock nuts on the studs, then add that to the 25 in-lbs final tightening torque. That might have added a few in-lbs. If they are nylon insert locknuts, then they should be uniform.

Since we know the stud thread pitch. It would be nice to know how many turns and fraction of turns, beyond snug, you tightened the nuts? That would give us an idea of the gasket's percent compression.

checkmate1996

Oh now you tell me!!

Anyway, Carl's instructions didn't tell how much force to use. I did email him and he said 24 in/lb. I don't think it matters if it's the cork, neoprene or silcone gasket in place at this point because of the different use of the locking nuts and studs.

Ok so here is what I did:

I could turn the nuts all the way down with the torque wrench until they the flange touched the oil pan. At that point, the bolt stops turning freely and resistance is felt. It only took two full revolutions (guessimate) before the torque wrench clicked. To me, it didn't seem like a whole lot, but I could be wrong. I just want to make sure before I button everything up...

checkmate1996

Sharkskin??

SharkSkin

Just as borland says, measure the running torque of the nuts. The swaged "toplock" is very consistent, I measured 3 of them at about 6 in/lbs ±1. So, I torqued all the nuts to 30 in/lbs. Carl is apparently getting great results at 24 in/lbs, but I felt that I would try to replicate the gasket clamping force that the Porsche engineers had in mind when they wrote the spec -- and I feel I accomplished that well enough by adding the extra 6 in/lbs. This is well within the design limits of the studs in aluminum. 6 months without even a hint of seepage.

One other tip -- regardless of the fastener or gasket type, you will probably need to hit each fastener two or three times to get everything torqued evenly. It seems this is less of an issue on the RealGasket because it compresses less than cork, but essentially when you torque one fastener, it will reach the intended torque no problem. But when you tighten the fastener next to it, you help compress the gasket under the first fastener -- which means you have to re-torque that fastener -- which may cause others to "loosen".

Just keep going round and round until you can do one complete circuit around the pan and every fastener is snug enough to get the wrench to "click" without moving. This may seem overly fussy but it works. You'll have to estimate the torque on some of the bolts that can't be reached with a torque wrench. Try your gear wrench on one of the fasteners that has been torqued with a torque wrench to gauge how much torque is enough.

ROG100

The biggest problem with the cork is that it takes a "set" position and also can shrink.
I can't remember the torque for the cork gasket as I have never used one - however it may have been less than 24 in lbs. IIRC Carl still sells the cork gasket or the neoprene? impregnated ones so we need to be carefull in stating a 24 in lb torque setting, accross the board, for the readers of your document.
Of course if Carl is having success with the setup that would be a good baseline.

Guess why they stopped using cork in wine bottles 8>)

checkmate1996

Gents, I really appreciate all your feedback. Dave, I did exactly what you said regarding going around the pan several times to make sure everyone is consistent. However I used 25 in/lb as my torque setting. Do you think it's worth raising the engine to get the other 5 in/lb extra?

Larry Velk

In the accepted book "Engineer to Win" by the former Ford GT and others team engineer Carrol Smith, he states that spring lock washers are completely useless on cars. This leaves open the possibility that they may work when plywood is fastened, etc. He states "Once a fastener has loosened to the point where a 'split-lock-washer' becomes a spring, the assembly is far too loose for any safety". Well, I think he miss states one thing there (the compressed washer is still a spring and within its elastic limit), but I think he's right otherwise. The other style "locking" methods are different than the 'split-ring' - they clamp on the thread rather than push on it axially. When a gasket is compressed, as in this discussion, I think a spring washer might be effective - not so in solid lash-ups. In other words no stretching of the bolt takes place as is usually the case in shear loaded, properly designed systems.