Gnarly 928

Hi, Haven't been on the Forum for some time and I come across this thread. Imagine that!
I know something about driving a 928 at warp speed, having been an ORR addict before I started in on closed course racing. Got started and 'mentor-ed' by Marc and Susan Thomas. We continued on with it till we approached the 200mph mark running in the Unlimited speed class. At those speeds, on a public highway, you are just plain pushing the envelope. It seems that most people who've run at these speeds much realize the odds are against them and that sooner or later, something beyond your control will maybe go bad, and we stop doing it. Like Marc and Susan, some very few keep at it untill they get into the "200 mph Club", but that is a very very exclusive club, indeed! Good luck, Cheryl and Tim(?) I'd love to join that club, but my stroker's too wide now, the aerodynamics are set for closed course racing now, and I am just plain skeered!
We quit running at that speed after 3 crashes. Crashed by friends in our class, in one season, all very experencied, very careful competators. Too many chances to have something beyond your control go wrong, and very few chances of surviving a crash on a regular highway at that speed.
In order to get much over 160, you have to clean up the drag of the cars. One Pony Express that I ran with Mark White along as navigator, we were testing. They have a 10 mile long course with a testing session and rookie driver qualification session prior to the PE, and we forgot to raise our windows before we started our first run. Our tech speed for that event was 165, I think our target was 150 (for the 93 mile course, average) so I wanted to test up near our tech speed. In order to acheive our target speed over the full course, we'd need to run up near 165 to offset some slower corners in what is called "The Narrows" where I only wanted to run at about 120mph(corners are marked "45mph" on the highway signs..) With the windows down we could only get 163..Then on our second run with windows up, we easily saw 170..but don't tell anyone...
At those speeds (anything over about 145) the car becomes very "light" for want of a better way to describe it. It takes total concentration and focus to not make a mistake. Mid-corner corrections aren't very well advised or very effective. And taking a "corner" at 150+..that gives the term "apexing" a whole different meaning..A corner at that speed can have a mile-long radius, more if you get your entry and exit exactly right..and you do.
.I recall our first 20 or so miles with Mark White as my co-driver..Luckily, I had done the same course a bunch of times, because Mark was seconds behind with his shouted Nav. to Driver instructions about approaching corners....At 170mph you cover a mile in under 3 seconds, so he was unused to reading our course notes at an appropriate pace to keep me up on what was ahead." Waay late," I told him, loudly, a few times....with a grin, but still.... When you know you have a right hander, you must edge over to the left shoulder to enter, and at that speed, you don't want to 'jerk the wheel' at the last second...We started out like..Mark: "Ok, Donny, we got a left coming, it's a two,(that means a slight lift for the corner) and then a flat out right" Me: "You mean that combo we just went through?..Quicker with the infor, Marky"...He was having too much fun watching the green light on the PSD indicator light up and the speedo needle hover around 165...
My SO, Marie was my normal navigator..we won our first ever Pony Express. When we passed the Gold Mine corner about 4 miles from the finish, I go "Well, where are we, are we slow or fast, what do we need, what do I DO?" And she yells back over the roar "F**K, I dunno, I'm lost...just PUNCH IiT!" So I did and we won the 125mph class in our first-ever Open Road Race.
Our fastest "official" radar-verified time was 187mph, done at over 7000' in the NA stroker 91 GT during a Gambler's Run north of Elko, Nv. We were running in the 170mph class but had an "Unlimited" tech speed, so as we approached the radar trap we decided to run up a bit from our 'slow' average speed. Accelertating from 170 at that altitude takes some time and distance..We did see, off the record during another run in that car, a 200mph gps-verified run..Scary stuff..But, it wasn't done during competition, so it doesn't count..talk is cheap, right?
At the Gambler's Run that time at Elko, first we were delayed for hours by a SC Mustang taking flight off a cliff. Then, about 10 miles from the finish, we topped a rise and Marie yells over..."LIFT, LIFT! Someone's waving way up there..." We instantly flashed past a course- worker with his chair up over his head, waving us to the left, totally freaked looking! As we topped that next rise where the guy had been sitting so peacfully just moments before, we see what looks to be a 3-5 mile long yard sale, scattered all over the road! By now, we'd come down to about 160mph..We spy another figure way up ahead, both arms overhead motioning us left again.."Left Side! Left Side" hollers Marie and I fade left, just missing large chunks of Carl and Ellen Young's TT 993 rear corner. They'd had a blow out at 180 and it destroyed the rear of their car. Carl and Ellen are were the Grand Masters of Open Road Racing, and I am gathering it took every trick in Carl's book to control the TT until he stopped it, then he jumped out and was waving us over so we didn't cut one of our tires, or worse...
Later that season, there were two more crashes in Unlimited, Carl and Ellen were again unlucky and ended up with some serious injuries. They were very lucky to live. That decided me to quit ORR and move over to the road course track venue, where you rarely get above 150 and the track is designed with high speed misshaps in mind.
So back to the starter of the thread...HP increases in the 928 due to recent developments? Hmmm .First off, HP is certainly not the most important factor in high speeds. Aerodynamics is really important. Dependability is really important. Sustainablilty is very important. You have few chances to do top speed runs. Fewer still chances when all the conditions are just right to make records..If you have a car that is always working very well, is always ready to rock and roll flat out, you may be lucky enough to be there at the right time and make a record..All the talk of "In theory, this should be good for XXXX.XXmph..." well, that is a good theory, I guess. You can say anything you want..But without the deed to back it up, it is just talk..theory, whatever. I gather the Devek car's motor has migrated into another chassis, so"Recent HP increases?" They pulled 219mph at Firestone test track way back in the 90s with that same stroker set-up..Anything faster, you would probably want a purpose built streamliner...PS, speaking of theory...The Professor, Louis Ott says his math show new stroker I have now is putting over 700hp through the crank, normal aspirated. Only 575rwhp on the dyno, but the thero-math says 702 or some such..ha. talk.
The ORR events are certainly great events to go out and test yourself and your car, to meet some like-minded people and have a great time. The ORRvenue is the perfect event for our 928s, where weight is not a big factor, where the air conditioning is an asset not a drawback, where the extra room and comfort is quite welcome on the cross country approach to the event, where the sound of a Devek stroker motor taking off in the early morning, running up through the gears to hit 5th at 145mph sends chills of envy through the Corvette crowd..
Don Hanson

sweanders

Nice writeup Don!

It sure is nice to be at the ORR events and I am an addict, unfortunately I've only been navigating since my car is in Sweden.

The ORR events are good events to go fast at because of the safety crew is on standby but to drive really fast I prever German highways since they are designed for high speed.

There are also a few sections of road here in Sweden that are good for high speed driving, but it would have to be done illegally since the speed limit is 110 km/h. Also it is only suitable to drive fast when there is no traffic around. Passing a car doing 80 mph while you are doing 170 mph is interesting to say the least because of the change in aero when cutting into another cars stream.

Vilhuer

People constantly try to go as fast as car will go in German autobahns. Some people manage to get over 200mph time after time without any problems. Of course when something happens its bad. Its geting more and more difficult because of the traffic but is still doable sometimes. 150mph is like walk in the park to these people. Even I have done above that in 928 and 964. 928 felt like train while 964 was all over the road and didn't feel comfortable above 140mph.

LeonT

Kudos to Don Hanson and Thanks for a great post...so there you have your answer Hughett,219 MPH.

sweanders

I am pretty sure that the white car didn't break 200 mph but came very close. I believe that Marc said that the car probably could do 215 mph. During the shoot-out on the oval the DEVEK white car was the only car to drive to and from the event and IIRC the top speed was 198 or 199 mph.

H2

I've learned a lot from these posts...particularly about aerodynamics, suspension, tires, and driving skill being just as important as HP. Frankly, with the right gearing, Don Hanson's newly built (and for sale) monster 928 would have a good chance at breaking the 928 salt flats record. He also may need an auxliary wing. What do you think Don? For $50K or so someone could buy your virgin racing rig and probably break new ground with records. Possible? Or are the 928 aerodynamics inadequate at 230-240mph?

Orginally, I was thinking of all of the new supercharged 928s that are cropping up and wondering how they'd fare on top end? But, as I'm understanding from the above, HP alone is far from enough.

Harvey

sweanders

On a 928 the gearing is limiting the top speed more than anything else (if you have the power to get there). Take Jorg7's car as an example.

But, there is a tremendous difference on any car if it has good or bad shocks. With bad shocks the car will be uncontrollable.

marton

Generally true but the 928 is so stiff overall that it does compensate pretty well for bad shocks.

Marton

Brett928S2

Hi Don

Excellent response

So could you or anyone else who has done these speeds give me some direct advice on aerodynamics for these high speed runs ???

The conditions will be....

Rolling start around a bend at around 60 mph....

Then 2 miles straight down a runway to acheive my VMAX.....then a shut down area...

So in "theory" here is what happens ...

I come round the bend at around 60....make sure I am straight....then hit the Nitrous....from then until end of run...hopefully at around 200 ish...

Larger tyres on my 18 x10 rears ???

Take off my small S2 rear spoiler ??

Remove mirrors ??

Tape over headlights ??

Anything of the above make any difference ??

Any other thoughts ??

All the best Brett

PORSCHE 928 S2 AUTO V8 4.7 LTR 1986 IRIS METALLIC BLUE WITH X-PIPES ,RMB ,PROMAX CHIPS, KICKDOWN SWITCH, K&N, WIZARDS OF NOS - NITROUS KIT 150 HP JETTING - 505 BHP / 500 FT LBS TORQUE
PCGB UK 928 FORUM MODERATOR - Email managingdirector@pchealthcare.co.uk

mark kibort

nice write ups.

by the way, when we get to the top speeds of the 928, drag gets to be the dominant factor. obviously, you need to have enough downforce to control the car, but not too much as to "drag" the car down.

Remembrer the old " cubed" story? so, the hp becomes more and more important, to the tone of if you need 500rwhp to go 200mph. (which is kind of close to what you see), to go 240mph thats a 20% increase in speed. guess what the HP required will be? 1.7 x so that becomes 864hp!!
Want to go 220, well, thats 10% more speed, or 33% more hp needed or 665hp!!

Sounds like going 220mph is not too possible for our super-modified 928s, unless you can start addressing even more of the aero than even Devek did. (or can find 600+ hp)

mk

GT Jackson

You guys are all F'n crazy!!!! I'm just going to stay in my garage and make "Zoom Zoom" noises while I twist the wheel the wheel back and forth.

H2

Sounds right to me...but I was never good at math. I know that when I shift into 5th gear @ 145mph or so, the S gearing & my limited HP is so noticeable that it just starts creeping from then on. While listed top speed for my '85 is 155mph, I suspect that would be difficult to sustain this for any length of time.

What puzzles me is that on my '94 968 the advertized top end is also about 155mph....and it's a four-banger (3.0 liter) w/about 240hp. I find it hard to believe it would do this but I've never had it on the track, nor in Nevada like some of you guys have. I have trouble believing the 968 would be as stable at top end as the 928 but I could be surprised I guess.

The Audi TT Turbo also is advertised w/ a top end of 155mph but i think I'd have issues with the stock suspension, if it would do that in the first place. Doesn't feel nearly as stable as the Porsches. Maybe it's just me?

Harvey

danglerb

I took my 944T out one morning, nobody on the freeway, and walked it up to 150 in steps making sure everything was ok before increasing the speed. Very suddenly it was not OK, rear end decidedly squirrelly, but I lifted the throttle slowly and speed came down pretty fast. Month old car, bad right rear shock. With new shocks it was fine, but a few months later that section of the freeway was finished and connected through on both ends and I lost my private track.

I wonder in hindsight if the shock was already bad, or just leaky and pumped out while I was at speed, since it was so sudden, fine lots of control, not fine, not much control.

sweanders

A 968 can do more than 250 km/h and is very comfortable at that speed.

blown 87

I am with you on that one.