Doug Hillary

Hi,
macreel - thanks for the data. It appears to be a good result but without knowing top up quantity, oil type and etc it is hard to say. The oil's viscosity was too low for continued use
You will be Ok with what you have in now!

Chris - it might pay to check out the oil cooler thermostat. One of my friends bridged pins 5/13 on his digital dash (90GT) and the digital OP readout was about 1bar higher than the analogue gauge reading at anything much above idle

OFF TOPIC - A road and a track racer Chris - well, so was I. I rode in the World Sprint Champs (Milan and Liege - rated 10th) twice for New Zealand and equalled the 200m outdoor World Record (11sec) in 1963 on the Ordrupbane in Copenhagen
I rode in most of the Grand Prix sprint events in Europe (and in Eastern Europe) in 1962/3 and the Pre-Olympics in Tokyo
OZ riders have always been world class trackies and we spooked them then on their own turf. I spent most of 1963 with the Italian track team under their National Coach Guido Costa and was offered Contracts by the Italians (Cinelli) and the French but I went back to NZ instead - sadly!

I was NZ Champ on the road and as a sprinter and held all the short distance track records there for many years - and some track records in England (Herne Hill & Wolverhampton) too
At 67 I still have some bikes but don't ride anymore - just dream!! It is a great sport sadly tainted by drugs as it has been for decades - I was not into them but many of my competitors in Europe and Eastern Europe were!

Do you ride the 1km TT? - it was always my favorite along with sprinting and Teams Pursuits

Regards
Doug

fabric

Thanks Doug, I"ll check it out, shoudln't be too much different on the '87 wiring.


Wow!!! A very impressive palmares, I could only wish I had a fraction of these results. My best results are winning the Illinois State Madison ( along with my partner ) and a 3rd in the Illinois state pursuit, which are quite minor. I am decidedly *not* a sprinter - can sort of tell from the picture, but I'm around 6'2" ~160 lbs. I fairly despise the Kilo, and have only done a few team pursuits, but I do like the individual pursuit. However, living in the flatlands and having to do mainly flat crits and road races, I'm not as useful as if I could ride in the mountains with my build, so on the road, when I'm actually riding well, I'm usually helping my teammates out and attempting leadouts, which I really enjoy doing.

Yes, cycling has unfortunately a not undeservered bad name, and it's a sport where performance enhancing drugs can have a really drastic effect on ones performance. I can see how it would be tempting at the highest levels. It also must be tempting at the lower levels, as I've competed against athletes I know have used doping products, and a few who've been busted.

Thanks for sharing a little of your cycling experiences Doug, it's nice to hear from another cyclist, especially one with your background.

mark kibort

Ok, i sent the 20 bucks to blackstone labs to show the holbert Amzoil oil is in good shape after a brutal 5 races with some extreme driving conditions.

they tested it for oil with expectations of 3500miles run on it, even though i told them the car was primarily a race car.

Here is it:

P.O. NUMBER Prepaid UNIT NUMBER 86 929 S4
CODE: 20/23759/37 REPORT DATE: 9/15/06
OIL REPORT LAB NUMBER: C84418

©COPYRIGHT BLACKSTONE LABORATORIES 2006 LIABILITY LIMITED TO COST OF SAMPLE ANALYSIS
MARK: All wear reads around universal averages in the first sample from your 929. Universal
averages are based on an oil run of ~3,700 miles. While your wear was slightly higher than universalaverages, they were in the proper balance to indicate normally wearing parts free of any obviousmechanical problems. The viscosity was in the normal range for a 20W/50. We didn't have enoughsample to check for fuel, though we don't have any reason to think you have a fuel system problem.
Insolubles were low, showing good oil filtration. All in all, things look good here.

EQUIPMENT MAKE: Porsche
EQUIPMENT MODEL: 5.0L V-8
FUEL TYPE: Gasoline (Unleaded)
CONTACT:
NAME:
ADDRESS:

FAX:
OIL USE INTERVAL: 3,000 Miles
OIL TYPE & GRADE: Amsoil Racing 20W/50
MAKE-UP OIL ADDED: 3 qts

ADDITIONAL INFO:
COMMENTS UNIT CLIENT
3,000 MI/HR ON UNIT

MARK KIBORT
416 EAST PETTIT AVE
FORT WAYNE, IN 46806 (260) 744-2380

Actual results of tests. (from the PDF file)

zinc normal 1111 , holbert 1219
phosphorus normal 963, holbert 1160
magesium normal 518, holbert 220
calcium normal 1885, holbert 2168
iron 7, holbert 10
aluminum 5, holbert 6

SUS viscocity at 210F normal 82-95, Holbert 83
flashpoint normal greater than 385, holbert short
insoluables less than .6, Holbert .3
no anti freeze, no water

Vlocity

Doug......

You certainly know more about oil than I will ever hope to know and understand. Last year when the local availability of Mobil 1 went south...although reading this thread I see that it is still available, I decided to switch both my 1989 C-4 (which sees year round use in Ohio) and my Supercharged 928 S (which sees DE events) to a brand that would suit both applications without having multiple brands and weights sitting in the garage.

I switched to the Castrol Syntec 5w-50. This oil is API SL/CF rated.

I would be interested in any arguements against......It is my understanding that the 5 w does offer some additional start up and anti wear advantages over the 15 and 20 w oils.

Thanks for your time.

Ken

SharkSkin

Doug, I'm having a hard time finding cSt numbers for the Valvoline 20-50 that I run. It's the conventional SL/SM and is rated 18.5 cSt @ 100C so I suspect it would be well over 4 cSt @ 150C -- I just can't find any data for 150C. Any thoughts?

mark kibort

I contend, and its been sort of indicated that oils are oils, until you push them. I believe that the protection the Mobil 1 is fine for day to day driving and certainly dont think there is any advantage of using a 5 weight vs 20 weight upon start up, since i took apart a car with 170,000miles, 30,000miles of racing, and there was literally no wear on the bearings, any of them.

I think the main test should be the tests that show the protection of the oil when it gets up to 250F range, like you would see on the track.
The fact that the Amzoil , raced for several months, shows near normal viscocity for a street oil test for oil run for 3500miles (basically, unused) is a testiment to the oil quality. I also believe that the oil pressure drop with mobil 1 should be a concern. there was a poster on this thread that showed 2.5 bar at idle and 5 bar at 2000rpm. Ive seen Mobil 1 with 260f temps fall apart and barely keep the oil pressure light from firing. whats the explanation here? With Amzoil, we get over 5 bar at all times at all rpms, unless im in a high g turn where the oil pressure will just be shy of 5 bar. agian, my experience with mobil 1 has shown some real low pressures when racing, and this goes away with Amzoil or Redline (or even a good quality dyno racing oil thats fairly new, like Kendall 20-50)

Doug has much of the knowledge base here, but im really curious to the tests we can conduct or coorelate to a racing or extreme operating conditions.
I think tests of film strength, viscosity, and other tests at extreme conditions are the only way we will know.

Again, i think a little of the emperical test results of what holbert car has been through is pretty compelling. 5 years, gettting a thorough beating every month, no visible wear based on oil and filter analysis, must indicate something good is happening by the use of amzoil in extreme conditions.

Mk

FlyingDog

Bill, I found some information that may help you while I was looking for Liqui-Moly 5W40 and 10W40 specs (never found them). There is a Liqui-Moly 10W60 racing oil sold at Advance Auto. I found a few reviews (mostly translated from German forums) saying that it rivals the Castrol 10W60 racing oil that always gets rave reviews. A few sites said that 10W60 is not imported by Castrol, but BMW imports it as their own oil for M3 racers. Liqui-Moly laso makes another racing oil for BMW that IIRC is 10W50, but I think that is European only.

FlyingDog

Semi-on topic:
I just changed my Jeep from 5W40 Rotella T synthetic to Mobil 1 T&SUV 5W30 and milage went from 18-19.5mpg over 15-17 gallon intervals to 19-21mpg. Temp seems lower, but it takes a few more seconds to get normal oil pressure on cold startup.

mark kibort

if you are talking about oil temp, thats one thing, but you are probably talking about water temps and that is more dependant on the thermostat.
mileage probably wouldnt be any different. i run the same route every day for a year and my mileage varied from 21mpg to 24mpg. (bmw).

so many factors, so little time

mk

FlyingDog

Same route everyday about 5000miles on 5w40 and 2000 miles on 5w30 over the passed 3.5 months. I haven't gotten over 20mpg for over a year and I've had 3 of the last 5 over 20mpg including a 340 miles trip going 70-80mph most of the time. The water temp used to sit directly on the 210 mark all the time except when really hot (traffic on 90+ day). It sits about a needle's width below that mark while moving at highway speed now.

mark kibort

like i said, your temps are a function of the thermostat's opening. unless its pegged at max opening, there is no reason why you would see lower temps. Its probably a chance thing. the guage is not accurate enough nor repeatable to judge whether using an oil with viscosit of 40 vs 50 would make such a difference, nor would the thermostat allow for such a difference.

mk

GlenL

First off, thanks for differentiating between "accuracy" and "repeatability." The gauges on these cars have poor accuracy, but the repeatability is good, at least over the short term.

Reducing internal friction and reducing power used in pumping will both reduce engine temp. Factor in that the oil is also a coolant and it's entirely possible to change operating temperature by changing oil.

Now whether you can see it on the gauge and distinguish that effect from others, like ambient temp, is another issue. Keeping a log book and recording conditions is a bit much to ask people.

FWIW - I credit the Amsoil racing oil with reducing operating temp at the track.

John Veninger

BP/Castrol sells it directly to BMW.

mark kibort

Track use vs day to day driving are two entirely different things. Ill see middle of the gauge to just slightly higher toward the second white line on some of the hottest days and heaviest competition days at the track. however, oil temp can vary from 220 to 280F while the water will be in a pretty narrow range.

the only time you can tell if the water temps are now lower due to oil temps being lower (slim chance) is when the thermostat is pegged open. do you really think that there can be a noticable water temperature difference by using an oil with a slight viscosity difference? impossible ? well, no, but improbable. dont you think?

I dont think most of the temps in the engine are caused by friction. if they were, the engine would eat itself alive over a short period of time. the reality of the situation is that with the oil film coating all surfaces, there is very little friction. most of the heat is caused by combustion and that heat transfering to the metal in the engine, disappated by the oil, water and surface areas of the engine. if i can make 320h, 400hp or have an anderson engine with near 600hp, all run with the same amount of oil, use the same radiator, and have the same water capacity, while the oil temp, water temp and surface area dont change all that much, what do you think the difference really is? Thats twice the heat dissipation but the oil and water. if you have 600hp, that means near 150% of this is just going up in eat! think about it. 2000hp of our engine is going up in heat. 1,500,000 watts!!l

mk



MK

GlenL

Otto cycle engine are around 31% efficient so the "wasted" energy is 1200hp. The vast majority of that is going out the tail pipe as heat.

The reason it doesn't melt the engine is that the cylinder temps aren't rising proportionately. There are a lot of gains by having bigger volume and better volumetric efficiency at higher RPMs. The point being that the engine isn't picking up more heat from actual combustion at 6l, 6500 rpm and WOT than at 5l, 3000 rpm and WOT. The exhaust valve and downstream from there are.

"Impossible" and "improbable" are two different things. A needle width in water temp by running better oil? Doesn't sound like the first and not too much of the second.