Mrmerlin

Hi guys you better check your work, the thick washer that goes under the bolt for the crakshaft pulleys has to have the recess facing the crankshaft, the recess DOES NOT go towards the bolt head.
If you put it on incorrectly then the timing belt pulley drive gear will not be tight and will eventually wear the keyway wider in the crankshaft, as will the Vibration Damper, the recess is so that the washer will clamp all of the pulleys together and keep pressure on them so they are not able to rotate back and forth on the crankshaft, as for the thin A/C drive pulley it has a little square added for balancing and will fit either way I like to face it to the back that way if the piece ever did come off it would have less of a tendency to get caught in the V belts, Stan

anonymousagain

hmmmm... I was able to thread the bolt, sans washer, all the way in while checking depth of the threads; then able to tighten with washer in either direction w/out any recognizable differences at all.

Considering this, how would the "timing belt pulley drive gear will not be tight" occur, if the bolt is in fact sinching to torque and not bottoming out? Are you suggesting there's something else other than thread length to consider? -- simple logic: if bolt threads in w/out washer, than thickness of washer is not an issue (recessed to bolt head or not), obviously accounting for 'not too few threads' as well.

Mrmerlin - I'm in the same boat as Jeff, if there's something new to learn that will make it NOT WRONG, then please elaborate 'cause I'm taking notes....

Bill Ball

Thanks for the informaton, Stan. It may be a little hard to grasp how this makes a difference, as anonymous notes. I thought Dave was on to something with the force being exerted out a bit from the center. Perhaps, as you're trying to explain to us, this clamps the pulleys together better.

To me, it is clear the washer was designed to have a recess with a HEAVY lip. Why is it there? Why is it so thick? It seems you and Dave have a good idea of why.

jeff jackson

I'm with you "anonymous"...I have "had" it on there BOTH ways, and can't tell any difference . Certainly not going to "wallow out" the crank sprocket keyway....and at 218 #/ft. torque on the nut...I cant see the pulleys "going" anywhere either...there are locked down tighter than a "bull's ***"...so, if there isn't any "belt alignmnet issues", I'm inclined to leaved the recessed washer "as-is"...with the recess facing the crankshaft nut. The nut "seems" to fit perfectly within the recess, which makes me feel like the recess was to "locate" and center the nut properly.

Bill Ball

Guys, did you know that Stan works on these cars every day at Motorsport in Salt Lake City? I can't say I understand the basis for what Dave and Stan propose either, but I take Stan's comments very seriously even if they are not intuitive to me. He's not one to idly speculate. Do what you want, but if Stan says it goes the other way, that's what I'm doing. Of course, that's easy for me, since it reinforces what I already thought, even if I didn't have good reason other than I've found them that way on virgin cars and the WSM image suggests it.

anonymousagain

lol - dang it Bill, I'm already thinking of changing it on principle alone since Stan is a 928 wrencher, and now you go and compel me even more to switch it

Serously though, just trying to get my arms around whether it'd make any difference, especially in Jeff's case since he's got to yank the fan/throttle linkage along with all belts to flip the washer around. Perhaps it's just my simple logic that argues the point, but I would like to understand how it could be "wrong" as opposed to just not the WSM way....

Stan, any further edu-ma-cation to clarify through the fog?

SharkSkin

I admit to idle speculation, but I do have a strong mechanical background and can tell you that it is rarely OK to put a fastener on the concave end of a washer. Notable exceptions are shock absorbers and various rubber-bushed fittings. In those cases there is still a flat surface where the fastener contacts the washer. Without seeing all of the parts in person I'm flying a bit blind here. It would help if I knew the dimensions of the washer. But without reservation, I will say that if there is not a flat surface on the concave side of the washer that is larger than the bearing surface on the shank side of the bolt head, it doesn't go together that way. It is never OK to tighten a bolt directly onto a concave surface.

Even if there is a flat surface on the concave side, my first guess would be that it has to go the other way around so that the washer can act as a spring -- like a bellville washer -- that keeps a specific tension on the pulley stack when torqued down. If you remove the bolt and washer, you should see marks on the pulley where the OD of the washer contacted it.

Mrmerlin

Hi Guys heres the skinny on the washer deal, this is made as a precision assembly, the thick washer with recess is made to go over the end of the crankshaft and it will not bottom out on the crank rather the edge of the washer is made to clamp all of the pulleys together and maintain a slight clearance between the nose of the crankshaft and the recess of the thick washer, if you put the washer on backwards the bolt will still tighten up OK BUT the pulleys will all be loose on the crank as there is not any clamping force being applied, after time then the non clamped pulleys namly the TIMING BELT and the VIBRATION DAMPENER will have been snapping back and forth and thereby destroying both the pulleys and the crankshaft keyway.
Try this remove the bolt and look at the end of the crankshaft with all of the pulleys on you will see how the crankshaft protrudes slightly past the the alternator pulley (The big fat pulley with 3 V grooves cut in it) since this is happenening it is therfore reasonanble to figure that the washer placed on the bolt with the recess facing the crankshaft will add a clamping force as the recess of the washer is deeper than the nose of the crankshaft protrusion, if you put this recessed washer on the WRONG way then it will still get tight when torqued BUT it will no longer be applying any clamping force to the assembled pulleys, I hope that this info is not too late in reaching you but if not corrected then the CRANK and TIMING BELT PULLEY will be destroyed in short order, As well as the possibility of the otherV belt pulleys seizing on the end of the crankshaft as there will be nothing holding them tight while then engine is running
Good luck. Stan

anonymousagain

Thank you Stan. That's the info I was looking for and <reluctantly> am going to switch the washer asap!!

SharkSkin, thank you as well - the bellville washer "spring" makes sense and is likely why it came loose in the first place!

Oh Jeff... sorry man, but the propeller heads just sealed the discussion...my 3rd re-do has to be a charm

Rennlist rocks!!!

Bill Ball

Uh, all of the sudden this became patently obvious....

1. The outer pulley face does NOT sit proud of the end of the crank.

Hence:

2. The washer will not clamp the pulleys unless the recess faces the rear.

THANKS, STAN!

SharkSkin

Thanks for the authoritative answer, Stan. I was looking at the WSM pic and it seemed that the balancer & crank gear were larger I.D. than the other pulleys, and I wondered. It's really hard to draw solid conclusions from a WSM pic sometimes -- nothing like BTDT to confirm! I need to pay more attention instead of yakking at these TB parties...

Bill Ball

Well, Dave, we did learn together the undocumented tip about the tensioner arm and the position of low tension sensor wire spade, so you're not always yakking!

SharkSkin

Well, that's true. But it's easy to miss details!

jeff jackson

BOY...am I GLAD I asked this question....No big deal at this point . I have yet to reinstall all the belts and viscous fan assembly, so its just a simple matter of reinstalling the flywheel lock, and flipping the washer over. Thats WHY, I asked this question NOW rather than after completely reassembling all the accessory drive equipment. I am like Dave though...the nut, "looks" to be a perfect fit in the recess of the thick washer, hence my conclusion that it "MUST" go this way...Oh, well...live and learn.

jeff jackson

OK Guys...I pulled the nut and washer back off this morning and flipped the washer over. You know...upon closer inspection, it IS obvious the recessed part of the washer faces the crankshaft, and NOT the nut. The pulleys, when seated fully over the snout of the crankshaft, leave a portion of the crank snout exposed, and it is EXACTLY the depth of the recess in the washer. Once again the list comes through with timely and excellent advice and reccomendations. Thanks to all who contributed, and I feel a WHOLE lot better now, knowing "for sure" that I have it on there the right way. I can see how if it had been left "reversed" ...the accessory drive pulleys would NOT have been tight enough and slippage would be a certainty. Thanks again, especially to Stan, Bill, and Dave. I DON"T always know all the answers....BUT, I DO know exactly where, and who to ask.