View Poll Results: What should I do next? See the end of the post for full option explanations.
Fair and above board...with a paper trail.
3
21.43%
On the DL, but the guy still pays for it.
3
21.43%
Repo my own car, force him to eat the $$$ or get a lawyer.
1
7.14%
"I love the smell of napalm in the morning..."
7
50.00%
Voters: 14. You may not vote on this poll
The case of the Fried LH brain...I think the welder did it!!
02-09-2006, 02:04 AM
#16
Nordschleife Master
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combo of 3,2, & 1.
go take some pictures and get pre reclaimant pictures taken. threaten option 1, tell him you're taking home the car, and if he refuses, tell him you'll take the car home with police assistance if necessary...
But, that's a last resort.
go take some pictures and get pre reclaimant pictures taken. threaten option 1, tell him you're taking home the car, and if he refuses, tell him you'll take the car home with police assistance if necessary...
But, that's a last resort.
02-09-2006, 02:07 AM
#17
Under the Lift
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WSM:
Safety notes 50-05
Printed in Germany - XXVII, 1991
To protect electronic control units against excessive voltage when using electric welding equipment,
observe the following safety measures:
- Disconnect clamp from negative battery terminal and cover negative battery terminal
- Connect ground clamp of the electric welding equipment directly and as closely as possible to
the component to be welded. Make sure no electrically insulated parts are located between the
ground clamp and the welding location.
- Do not touch electronic control units and electric lines with the ground clamp or with the welding
electrode.
=========
So, it looks like he may have done it according to the book.
Safety notes 50-05
Printed in Germany - XXVII, 1991
To protect electronic control units against excessive voltage when using electric welding equipment,
observe the following safety measures:
- Disconnect clamp from negative battery terminal and cover negative battery terminal
- Connect ground clamp of the electric welding equipment directly and as closely as possible to
the component to be welded. Make sure no electrically insulated parts are located between the
ground clamp and the welding location.
- Do not touch electronic control units and electric lines with the ground clamp or with the welding
electrode.
=========
So, it looks like he may have done it according to the book.
02-09-2006, 02:42 AM
#18
Rennlist Member
Under the table is a dual-edged sword. On the one hand, getting a legal remedy is that much more of an uphill battle because you have no paper trail. Conversely, without a signed work order he has no legal grounds to hold the car. But, possession is 9/10ths, and most tow drivers won't get into the middle of this. It's up to the two of you to keep it from turning nasty. Ideally, I'd say get the car back in your hands before it gets nasty if at all possible.
02-09-2006, 07:02 AM
#20
Drifting
but what if the computer failed, or some other component failed(you havnt really found the problem have you?) because it was old or was on the way out any way? then it becomes the issue of you accusing this workshop of doing this to your car. this is not a good place to be in. your cheapest option is to pay him what you owe him and fix the car yourself. taking it to court will cost you into the thousands and even if you win he can stil opt not to pay you. seen it happen too many times.
02-09-2006, 07:39 AM
#21
Rennlist Member
Option #5
As LH units are known to fail by mere age ( less likely in 85/86?), it is unlikely that one could prove negligance ... especially as the shop professes to have disconnected the battery. Life is not always fair ..
Oprion #4 does have a certain flair .....
As LH units are known to fail by mere age ( less likely in 85/86?), it is unlikely that one could prove negligance ... especially as the shop professes to have disconnected the battery. Life is not always fair ..
Oprion #4 does have a certain flair .....
02-09-2006, 07:52 AM
#22
Racer
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I do work a lot with rally cars= lot of welding in a hurry + lots of electronic stuff.
I've seen more than one e-brain dead after welding, even welding far away from ecu's: it's not a myth. Rally cars have a big circuit breaker (to avoid fire) which disconnects battery "+" from the rest of the loom when engine is off, but that sometimes didn't help. Only safety measurement that always worked for me: isolate brain from chassis = pull brain connector.
Pulling any battery terminal helps, but I can imagine situations in which it's still unsafe. (Welding near rear ground point, rear wheel speed sensor is grounded there (shouldn't be), LH ground point is at the front, ground welding in between, speed signal is 600V, you fried that circuit).
These safety recomendations are safe if wiring loom is in perfect shape. If you have a ground cable grounded somewhere else, car runs but pulling battery "-" and welding will fry something.
To sum up: I would pull every brain connector before welding.
Sorry about my English and hope that LH is still ok!
I've seen more than one e-brain dead after welding, even welding far away from ecu's: it's not a myth. Rally cars have a big circuit breaker (to avoid fire) which disconnects battery "+" from the rest of the loom when engine is off, but that sometimes didn't help. Only safety measurement that always worked for me: isolate brain from chassis = pull brain connector.
Pulling any battery terminal helps, but I can imagine situations in which it's still unsafe. (Welding near rear ground point, rear wheel speed sensor is grounded there (shouldn't be), LH ground point is at the front, ground welding in between, speed signal is 600V, you fried that circuit).
These safety recomendations are safe if wiring loom is in perfect shape. If you have a ground cable grounded somewhere else, car runs but pulling battery "-" and welding will fry something.
To sum up: I would pull every brain connector before welding.
Sorry about my English and hope that LH is still ok!
02-09-2006, 08:34 AM
#23
Burning Brakes
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Thanks for all the input folks. Since I am not 100% sure that the brain is fired (about 50%) and that it could be a relay, I'm not ready to torch the place yet.
In deference to the worker, he called me last night asking to fax over a wire diagram. Very humble, I talked him through a few basic checks on relays etc.
What we know:
1. All pertinent relays function.
2. Fuel pump works under direct power.
3. Fuses seem to be intact.
4. Red/green wire off the back of the fuel pump relay has no juice.
5. Continuity to fuel pump is good.
So here's the next steps:
1. Get pictures with date "stamps." This will show custody.
2. Get pictures of parts involved and inspect for arcs.
3. Troubleshoot with WSM open to wire diagrams.
4. Pray...a lot.
Lessons on this one, disconnect the brain and save the pain.
In deference to the worker, he called me last night asking to fax over a wire diagram. Very humble, I talked him through a few basic checks on relays etc.
What we know:
1. All pertinent relays function.
2. Fuel pump works under direct power.
3. Fuses seem to be intact.
4. Red/green wire off the back of the fuel pump relay has no juice.
5. Continuity to fuel pump is good.
So here's the next steps:
1. Get pictures with date "stamps." This will show custody.
2. Get pictures of parts involved and inspect for arcs.
3. Troubleshoot with WSM open to wire diagrams.
4. Pray...a lot.
Lessons on this one, disconnect the brain and save the pain.
02-09-2006, 08:44 AM
#25
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Devil--
My '84 had no fuel getting to the engine..(previously charted here). Not sure exactly how it happened (probably from the jump start), the fuel pump ground wire was partially melted, but in the end, just replacing the ground wire and cleaning the ground point got the car running again.
AFARR
My '84 had no fuel getting to the engine..(previously charted here). Not sure exactly how it happened (probably from the jump start), the fuel pump ground wire was partially melted, but in the end, just replacing the ground wire and cleaning the ground point got the car running again.
AFARR
02-09-2006, 09:40 AM
#26
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Tim, sorry to read of your LH brain situation. I really liked #4 and thought I'd offer some more considerations. A buddy (Navy) emailed me this last year.
Rules Of Engagement
US Marine Corps Rules:
1. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.
2. Decide to be aggressive enough, quickly enough.
3. Have a plan.
4.. Have a back-up plan, because the first one probably won't work.
5. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
6. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun whose caliber does not start with a "4."
7. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.
8. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral & diagonal preferred.)
9. Use cover or concealment as much as possible.
10. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.
11. Always cheat; always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.
12. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.
13. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating your intention to shoot.
Navy SEAL's Rules:
1. Look very cool in sunglasses.
2. Kill every living thing within view.
3. Adjust speedo.
4. Check hair in mirror.
US Army Rangers Rules:
1. Walk in 50 miles wearing 75 pound rucksack while starving.
2. Locate individuals requiring killing.
3. Request permission via radio from "Higher" to perform killing.
4. Curse bitterly when mission is aborted.
5. Walk out 50 miles wearing a 75 pound rucksack while starving.
US Army Rules:
1. Select a new beret to wear.
2. Sew patch's on right shoulder.
3. Change the color of beret you decide to wear.
US Air Force Rules:
1. Have a cocktail.
2. Adjust temperature on air-conditioner.
3. See what's on HBO.
4. Ask "what is a gunfight?"
5. Request more funding from Congress with a "killer" PowerPoint presentation.
6. Wine &dine 'key' Congressmen, invite DOD & defense industry executives.
7. Receive funding, set up new command and assemble assets.
8. Declare the assets "strategic" and never deploy them operationally.
9. Hurry to make 1345 tee-time.
US Navy Rules:
1. Go to Sea.
2. Drink Coffee.
3. Deploy Marines
Rules Of Engagement
US Marine Corps Rules:
1. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.
2. Decide to be aggressive enough, quickly enough.
3. Have a plan.
4.. Have a back-up plan, because the first one probably won't work.
5. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
6. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun whose caliber does not start with a "4."
7. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.
8. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral & diagonal preferred.)
9. Use cover or concealment as much as possible.
10. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.
11. Always cheat; always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.
12. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.
13. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating your intention to shoot.
Navy SEAL's Rules:
1. Look very cool in sunglasses.
2. Kill every living thing within view.
3. Adjust speedo.
4. Check hair in mirror.
US Army Rangers Rules:
1. Walk in 50 miles wearing 75 pound rucksack while starving.
2. Locate individuals requiring killing.
3. Request permission via radio from "Higher" to perform killing.
4. Curse bitterly when mission is aborted.
5. Walk out 50 miles wearing a 75 pound rucksack while starving.
US Army Rules:
1. Select a new beret to wear.
2. Sew patch's on right shoulder.
3. Change the color of beret you decide to wear.
US Air Force Rules:
1. Have a cocktail.
2. Adjust temperature on air-conditioner.
3. See what's on HBO.
4. Ask "what is a gunfight?"
5. Request more funding from Congress with a "killer" PowerPoint presentation.
6. Wine &dine 'key' Congressmen, invite DOD & defense industry executives.
7. Receive funding, set up new command and assemble assets.
8. Declare the assets "strategic" and never deploy them operationally.
9. Hurry to make 1345 tee-time.
US Navy Rules:
1. Go to Sea.
2. Drink Coffee.
3. Deploy Marines
02-09-2006, 10:43 AM
#27
Electron Wrangler
Lifetime Rennlist
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What I would recommend if you must weld on the car...
1) Remove the plugs for the LH & EZK units - highest value takes priority
2) Disconnect the battery AND use a jumper cable to connect the cars
battery +ve lead to the cars ground strap - turn the key to the ignition
position and leave it there.
3) Ground the car to the welder
Disconnecting the battery alone likely does no good at all, if anything it makes things worse.
Even doing 2) does not help with EZK & LH inputs which could still get fried....
so unplug them. 2) is intended as insurance for the other car electronics - you need the ignition on to ensure modules see ground on all their supplies
Alan
1) Remove the plugs for the LH & EZK units - highest value takes priority
2) Disconnect the battery AND use a jumper cable to connect the cars
battery +ve lead to the cars ground strap - turn the key to the ignition
position and leave it there.
3) Ground the car to the welder
Disconnecting the battery alone likely does no good at all, if anything it makes things worse.
Even doing 2) does not help with EZK & LH inputs which could still get fried....
so unplug them. 2) is intended as insurance for the other car electronics - you need the ignition on to ensure modules see ground on all their supplies
Alan
02-09-2006, 11:03 AM
#28
Addict
Rennlist Member
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Originally Posted by Alan
2) Disconnect the battery AND use a jumper cable to connect the car's battery +ve lead to the cars ground strap - turn the key to the ignition position and leave it there.
Last edited by Ed Scherer; 02-09-2006 at 11:47 AM.
02-09-2006, 11:44 AM
#29
Race Director
Tim
I voted #4....it was just too funny not to vote for!! You should call Rich Andrade...he's local (same state at least) and might have a spare LH to diagnose the problem!
I voted #4....it was just too funny not to vote for!! You should call Rich Andrade...he's local (same state at least) and might have a spare LH to diagnose the problem!
02-09-2006, 01:05 PM
#30
Racer
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Originally Posted by Alan
Disconnecting the battery alone likely does no good at all, if anything it makes things worse.
What I would say is:
If you're welding with 36v near the battery ground strap (eg: tail pipe) and you do not disconnect it, whenever your electrode gets welded, permanent 12v supply will "supply" 50v to anything connected between battery "+" and any other ground point (eg: engine bay).
If sensors are all grounded to the same point (eg LH ground supply) disconnecting the battery should do the trick.
If fact, bridgeing battery "+" to battery ground (replacing battery with a jumper) may still feed 36v to anything connected!
My opinion is that safest is to disconnect battery (no jumpering) and brains connectors.
Safe soldering
