brutus

Looking at a V-6 ,closed deck , chain driven , 4 valve , double overhead cam , dry sump engine turbo just exactly what is 944 based ? The 944 was an open deck, 2 valve ,belt driven ,single cam, wet sump and no turbo at that time . Maybe they shared a sinter forged rod design !

Kevin Johnson

Possibly the bore centers for each bank -- hard to say.

Consult with Mezger. Also, I was quoting what Bernard Williams said that Lerbs said in an interview with MPR in the March 2004 issue on page 12. You could check with Mr. Lerbs and see if he misspoke.

I was willing to pony up the $31 to buy the article; perhaps you could make the effort to contact either gentleman to support your position?

brutus

I would say that you also are an interesting fellow , the quote below

Also, I was quoting what Bernard Williams said that Lerbs said in an interview with MPR in the March 2004 issue on page 12. You could check with Mr. Lerbs and see if he misspoke.

You made the statement that the tag engine shared something with the 944 but the photo evidence of the lack of any similarity between the very robust V-6 and a 944 questioned your statement. The burden of proof is yours. The he said she said he said is a poor excuse for making a mistatement of the facts. The 944 GTR turbo attempted to be raced by Porsche was completly unreliable at 650 HP out of a 2.5 four cylinder and that engine had NOTHING stock , not the block ,head, crank pistons or rods.

drnick

im with brutus on this one, for sure. you know to say these engines are similar is missing the point that they are actualy different. but correct me if im wrong, kj appears to be saying that the tag engine had a 944 rod???

Jim bailey - 928 International

Porsche racing engines from 1960s have used Titanium connecting rods , titanium bolts it would be very odd for them to build an F-1 engine 20 years later using steel rods , but anything is possible. In my opinion powder forging of rods would be a very inefficient method of making such a small run of connecting rods for a racing engine .

drnick

jim, what qualifies you to make these claims? have you ever worked in the auto industry or even studied russian psychology??

Jim bailey - 928 International

Lifted from an F-1 site...."Power range 390 to 500 hp, turbos 500 to 900 in race, in qualifiying up to 1300 hp
Alfa Romeo V8 1.5 L Turbo
Alfa Romeo V8 3.0 L
Alfa Romeo Flat-12 3.0 L
Alfa Romeo V12 3.0 L
BMW inline-4 1.5 L Turbo
BRM H16 3.0 L
BRM V12 3.0 L
Ferrari V6 1.5 L Turbo
Ferrari V12 3.0 L
Ferrari Flat-12 3.0 L
Ford V6 1.5 L Turbo
Ford-Cosworth DFV V8 3.0 L
Ford-Cosworth DFY V8 3.0 L
Hart inline-4 1.5 L Turbo
Honda V6 1.5 L Turbo
Maserati V12 3.0 L
Matra V12 3.0 L
Repco V8 3.0 L
Renault Gordini V8 (never raced) 3.0 L
Renault Gordini V6 1.5 L Turbo
TAG-Porsche V6 1.5 L Turbo
Tecno Flat-12 3.0 L
Weslake V12 3.0 L
Zakspeed inline-4 1.5 L Turbo "
That makes it clear that the TAG-Porsche was a 1.5 liter V-6 a tiny engine ! No way on earth that anything 944 related would fit in that ! a connecting rod ?? .

drnick

ok jim, that probably explains why manfred said it was "not generally known" kind of like the broader similarities between the 944 engine and the tag unit which are only known to a few.

but hang on, isnt manfred actualy saying it was a whole 944 engine that was used for formula one back in 1984, not just the connecting rod? that is incredible!! i had no idea these engines had such an amazing history of race derivation - this really puts those hot rod beetles to shame. to think, how advanced was porsches first clean sheet design for an auto after its 911 goggles were lifted that there new design of engine could also power its formula one effort and secure a world championship - and thats only half of a 928 engine!!

i bet they took that engine straight off the regular line as well, a real bragging point for the boys at zuffenhausen how there mid 80s production engines could simply trounce the rest of the world at the pinnacle of motorsport.

im not sure if its true but i heard manfred later went on to say: "it was also not generally known that when the Krebsoege PF con rod went into the Porsche 944 engine used in the McLaren-TAG Formula 1 racing car, it went in upside down - but such was the precision in our engineering it could run like this no problem"

Kevin Johnson

Why don't you check the bore centerlines.

This does not require knowledge of Luria but rather just an ability to do some basic research.

Good luck.

Kevin Johnson

Powder forging allows characteristics of constituent metals to be retained that might be lost if the mixture were melted to create an ingot for forging.

I don't know that cost- or labor-efficient and F1 go hand in hand.

Kevin Johnson

You might double-check the data from this site. The BMW M10 based engine put out close to 1500hp.

Again, why doesn't anyone talk to the source in the article?

Yikes.

Kevin Johnson

Not sure if this was mentioned. For a cross drilled crank that makes sense look at the Mazda BP. It is "through" drilled rather than X drilled. The oil passages are arranged so as to hinder preferentially stratified oil/air mixtures to one feed or the other.

Kevin Johnson

In my drawing program with a very rough estimate it appears that the centerlines may be the same as with the 928 block (944) but that the width of each bank has been shrunk. This is assuming the V6 is using 12mm studs.

Often engine manufacturers will retain common centerlines and scale other elements to fit.

Nothing beats having the block in front of you to check first hand.

martin D

One of these ?

martin D

The TAG Porsche engine used Titanium rods

P.S. the prototype engine was put into a 911 road car for testing & still exists as it was.