John Veninger

That what I aspire to do while on the race track.

BC

Well, I actually thought about the comment before I made it, and made the correction to the number that you see. It was lower before.

An important point is that if someone is paying some outrageous prices for someone to assemble thier engine for them (this only includes OUTSIDE of green bay) then they aren't going to listen to me. Most shouldn't. But I HAVE had or still do have the pieces or at least the solid numbers in my head on what to do for a big stroker.

A crank is not 3k. Hell a new moldex should be 2300, but you have to wait for it. Scatt is more for some reason. But there are always deals lurking around.

Crank, 2500

Rods, unless you are using Ti, should in no way be 1500, escpecially since the idea is to NOT use Porsche parts once you have chevy rod journals. But I think you know this. 5.85 rods are a dime a dozen, and if you go up a few steps to higher quality, then I guess it could touch 1k.

Piston are cut and dried - JE, Wiesco, etc - about a hundred or a hundred and a quarter for custom 2025 or the 4 series aluminum forged pistons. under 1k.

We are at 4500.

1500 for coating the block with Nikasil, or way more for doing sleeves. Like 3500 or so.

1000 for boring to 10x if you are going to coat the block.

My big gripe is that there are great people out there that do great headwork for NOT outrageous prices like installing some biogger valves and p/p for 4k. Thats nuts. This is not rocket science - and the formulas are there and out in the open for what to do. We just have to ask those who have based thier life on truth and candor instead of boasting, smoke and mirrors.

Add 550 or so for bearings, tops.


Stan - come on man - I never said a word about outside things listed there other than ITB. And I said 15k for ITB motors. I said MOTOR, never what was required to drive the car or run the motor afterword.

Oh, and 3k for custom electronics is not outrageous, again, for someone listening to some mechanic with $$ signs in his eyes, or if they wish to buy a Autronic or DTA Pro. But you can have a tuned sequential system on for 2k easy. If you figure out how to get dyno time and do it yourself, it could be less.

Now if we wanted to put 8 02 sensors on, the prices goes up.

Honestly, my point is that as long as someone is past not knowing what a piston is and where a rod goes, they can assemble an engine properly, and with care - using all the info here and elsewhere. Someone who tells us that its not that easy, takes years of hard work, experience, and magic pixie dust is trying to protect his bottom line (not you Stan), and continue people's ignorance because it suits him.

atb

BC wrote:

Brendon, If you have the small end sized for P-pins, this is about right. If you go with SBC pins, you get a better deal because they are off the shelf.

I don't think you pay an extra grand for boring when you get the nikasil coating, the boring is part of the price. If they don't have to bore, you get a little bit of a discount. I think coating alone is about $950, with the overbore its $1350. This is a good deal considering doing the factory bore/hone method for use with OEM pistons ran me $125 per hole.

I think the labor on my heads was $1500. That was for installation of new seats, guides, 3 angle grind, and porting. That also included the cutting the ports for the ITB adapter plates. I brought the heads in bare, and got them back that way (although the valves were indexed to a particular port) so there was no assembly/disassembly time.

BC

You are correct about the boring with the nikasil. I never looked at that other than for a stock bore, as if I wanted bigger bores, I was always going to do sleeves.

John Veninger

Brendan,

Your prices are a bit low. Your not including some "additional" costs.
Then add the cost of heavy metal and balancing, usually another $400, for example.

Good rods that are made for a big Porsche piston pin (talking about the 968 piston approach) are going to run around $1400.00.

Sorry, but that is incorrect for a DTA pro system. The 2K is about the price of the system and the parts to make a quality harness(your own labor). Dyno time is going to cost you close to $1K even while your tuning yourself and have the great help of Louie to give you a starting place


Yes, there are "cheaper" approaches, but then there are always compromises.

BC

Taking a step back here, (while still disagreeing) look up VEMS and find a compromise. Just one. And it has knock control. And is 700 dollars for the box alone.

John Veninger

You quoted DTA Pro, which I have first hand experience with and running on my stroker motor.

What running 928 stroker motor has a VEMS with completed functioning fuel and spark tables?

The compromise is not in the system specifications. The "expensive" DTA pro would be a system that is currently running on two stroker motors that I know of with competed tables and great support from Louie to reduce the "additional" cost of dyno time and tuning.
Is DTA the best, no. But it does work and is "proven" to me.

VEMS might be a great system after it is configured and wired. Still going to cost you over $2k

BC

Its not a stroker, but its a 928 2V motor. He took a day to tune it conservatively with no dyno.

Are you including coils and sensors with the 2K?

Why don't I just do this, I will add up what I already figured would be my plan, and we will then get back on topic. But I am not exactly sure why he argument is about how expensive a stroker SHOULD be instead of how inexpensive we can MAKE it while still getting every bit of value.

Crank = 2k (thats what I paid)
Pistons - 1k with crown coating for bling (JE)
Rods - Lets say 1 - I'll give you 1500. But look http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Titan...spagenameZWDVW
Block - 3500 for sleeves
Balancer - 450 (hammer group buy)
Bearings - 500?
Head gasket - 250 *cometic*
Heads - 2500 (big valves, proper, aggressive porting)
Balance - 1k

12450.

And I have outlined 3500 for the blockwork, which actually would possibly allow me 7L

928SS

why not just use a sharktuner and the OEM ECUs?? it's what I did, saves a bunch of $$ and it runs perfect now. no purchase costs, cept for a couple of cheap chips. looks nice and clean on the outside too

it's a LOT easier than starting from scratch w/maps, etc... just a few tweaks and wheeha! we even got my old 11.3:1 gal to run on our 91 crapola street gas w/out any knocks/pinging and did a 2nd set of race fuel maps for max performance when $7.50/gal gas doesn't scare me

ps not bashing the DIY gang, as that's most of the folks here and they do eventually mostly manage to fix whatever they need to properly, and compared to the average wrench on the street often do better work too.

so sure, anyone could experiment and eventually "learn how to do this". but when you pay someone that does these for a living and that knows all the little tricks, has the right tools, lots of experience, etc I think you end up w/better end result in less time, and with cleaner hands

we could use an inexpensive dry sump system that lets us keep street accessories/cures all the oiling nonsense and gives a few more ponies though...

Stan.Shaw@Excell.Net

Hi Brendan,

I was just providing a bit of detail about a motor built with 968 pistons. I am not surprised that a coated motor's cost is different. Do we have any example of coated 928 blocks running long term on the track? I am not saying that won't or can't, but being conservative I am trying to follow the path well traveled and suspect others might want to as well.

If you are going to track it, you are going to need some of the other upgrades. Ask John Veninger how quickly you can go through a transmission. My understanding is that Mark A. and Joe F. had clutch issues necessitating a clutch upgrade. I see these upgrades as required for a track car but probably not required for a street car. The same would be true with ITBs vs stock 928 intake, if you want to get all the hp available from the stroker motor.

Not looking for an argument here, just posting some real world numbers from someone who watched for deals over a multi year period. I paid $2200 for my crank as well, but it is unbalanced still so the cost will increase. I don't see our numbers as that far apart in general.


Hi Rob,

Probably no reason not to use the stock ECU, since Mark and Joe still do, right? I have a Motec setup because I saw a deal for one...

I don't know how you get to an inexpensive dry sump, except through mass production, and there isn't much demand for a dry sump on a 928. Less of a need when you consider the street car needs (accessory retention) is different than a track car. Pan fabrication was @$750 for mine.

BC

Mark Anderson and Joe Fan, and a few others - Carl. Sleeved motor - ask Swaybar, I think, and Joe in OC. (90S4)

I sure as hell hope that these guys are breaking Transmissions from doing evil-keneevil jumps over the apex curbs. Because I rebuilt the 78 trans I had and hope it last a while. I think its heat related, as I recall. So I am installing a cooler.

Stan.Shaw@Excell.Net

Mark A didn't have a coated motor last I knew, so can't imagine he has a long running example of one yet, maybe a new one though. Joe's first coated motor only lasted a year with problems unrelated to being coated as I recall. Didn't know Carl's was coated, nor being raced, I thought it was a DE car. Don't know about the others.

I don't think JV was jumping curbs, probably something related to tourque...

Fabio421

Carls running a steel sleaved engine last time I checked.

largecar379

now that you guys have filled the entire website with this discussion......and not really trying to rub salt in an open wound on both sides, but------

the Indy cylinder heads engine (wedge or HEMI legend) is about $20K for one that's street-able. Fully assembled, dyno-ed, ready to plug in. a few more bucks for a 16:1 motor, but that will require 116 octane race gas (300 plus more HP and over 200 more ftlbs torque).

what you would get is an all alloy engine (weighs less than a 928 engine), more HP and torque than a 928 stroker (N/A) ever thought about producing, no electronics to mess with, and the parts are not exotic......and it'll turn 7500 rpm's all day long and not even breathe hard. (for those who are really interested: that's enough to push a 928 way past the 200 MPH mark---)

the only hangup to installing this monster is fabbing the motor plates and adapters for the clutch can and clutch/torque tube short shaft. Renegade has a kit for SBC, so I would expect that it may not be a big deal to have them fab up the parts.

You could probably do the same with a BBC or if you wanted a really big engine, just stab a Sonny Leonard 821 Ford in there.....but, I digress.

so much for my "dream" motor......

There is one thing I would like to point out that everyone has left out:

the initial cost of things like a block to start with, cylinder heads, TB/h2o kits, etc....

Stan (many, many thanks!!!!!) knows what I paid for his 5.0L Euro hybrid, which was a great deal for me as I had no 5.0L "base" to start with. It included a new drilled crank.

What do I need to go big?

1. send the crank out to be stroked/chromed (hope to get Chrom-a-Shaft to do it/ I'll know next week) less than $1K
2. rods and pistons (Chebbie rods and custom pistons) $3K-probably less 'cause I have a few friends that run Chebbie's with lots of parts cheap
3. set of crank bearings $500
4. gasket set $350
5. TB/H2o pump kit $6-700
6. block work $1500
7. headers $8-900
8. custom cams/ cam buckets $2K
9. balance rotating assembly $400
10. Porken stuff $400 or so

What's been done so far?

1. Euro heads (totally reworked---yes, they will now outflow a set of 32V heads) $1600
2. CIS injection system mod-ed (including high flow MB injectors and fuel distributor/line modifications) $1K

Misc:

1. aluminum clutch/ high performance clutch $1500
2. Barry Grant fuel delivery system $1k
3. crank scraper/ pan baffles/ windage tray $???
4. MSD ignition system $???
5. head, crank, oil pan stud kits


all of that being said, I'm at $17.5K + without the misc stuff.

6.5 Liters, 16 valves, 2 cams, and no electronics to work the bugs out of.......

OLD SKOOL.........

$10K for a stroker would be nice.....but I think you're forgetting a few things----- the cost of a block, heads, and cams to start with.......plus?


(I'll now excuse myself from any further discussion----)

--Russ


Mmm.......What's that you've got in there? A 16V stroker.....?

Stan.Shaw@Excell.Net

Hi Russ,

928 stroked/bored motors that are being raced are 500rwhp, so quite a bit more. Also, I started with an intent to PCA race, so need a Porsche motor.

Good to know some of my old parts have such a bright future