heinrich

So we've got some very successful 928 racers out there. But we also have some very severe design/homologation limitations as well as some very severe engineering weaknesses. What's the opinion of the pro's out there ... is the 928 a good track beast? Would it make more sense to start with something else? Should a 928 be a street car or a GT or a racecar rather, or all of the above?

Brent 89-GT

Other than the rod bearing issue I can't think of another good reason not to consider the 928 for a track car. I don't think it is too difficult to get it down to 3000 lbs. It comes with aluminum suspension components and coil overs from the factory. There are awesome bolt on brakes for reasonable money. The wieght dist is 50/50. It has an aluminum V8 capable of over 300 hp even in two valve form. Considering the price of entry could be quite low if you picked up a ratty early car, I think the 928 is a good choice especially for a recreational racer.

mark kibort

There is NO better track car. durable, can be made light without sacraficing structure, Hp to weight ratio is fantastic (for club racing), brakes are awesome, even the "S" types with pagit orange pads,
engine is bullet proof, except for potential oiling, but use Amzoil and dont go over 6200rpm and you are safe!

bolt in a cage, buy big wheels tires, headers, and a bolt on suspension made out of stock components and you suddely have a car that can keep up and beat cars 10 years newer with $30k more invested.

Mk

John Krawczyk

Driver skill removed from the equation, can a 928 track car be made to podium consistantly in the classes it would be made to run in? Which begs the question, what class rules should one build the car for to get the most out of it?

mark kibort

ignoring all the round peg in the square hole series like Speed GT was,

The 928 fits only one class of racing now. ITE SCCA where it will do very well and can podium on occasion. you really cant ignor driver factors, as there are a lot of good drivers out there in all sorts of machinery.

PCA is a joke, forget about a reasonably stock 928 running in the race classes and doing well. ( this is due to a lack of physics understanding with the rule makers with PCA and POC) Sure, if you have a 6.5 liter, you can do well, but we are talking about a production based series. (so POC is a joke too, and so is PRC with NASA) so, where can the 928 win and win often? SCCA ITE, but the new class just introduced that solves all the parity issues, is the new NASA group called GTS Challenge. its the german toring car challenge.
my car could have won the national ITE championships at Road Atlanta should I have decided to make the trip. locally, i took 2nd iin the championship points, behind 550 hp Evo in a $10,000 a weekend effort season

the GTS challenge uses HP to weight ratios via dyno sheets on DOTs or slicks (but slicks cost performance points) its the perfect series for our cars and you can do well.

otherwise, you are left having to basically buy or build a porsche cup car for porsche racing, or a spec miata for that series, but that can get time consuming replacing body panels in that series (or worse)

Bmws are great "class" cars and lots of guys run them, but you end up with a 928 performance and it costs around $60k to make one of those cars with $280 rear wheel hp and 2500lbs, vs a stock S4 928 for $8k and make it into a race car for the standard $10k, and have a 2700lb , 310 rear wheel hp racer that will last!

Mk

John Krawczyk

Thanks Mark

Thats excactly what i wanted to know.

heinrich

Yes I was about to say that too It'd be great to hear from the Mouse Brigade and the illustrious Mark Anderson as well as some of our International friends too. Just how does the 928 do in racing across the world?

James-man

The 928 is fun at the track. Even for non-racers, you can drive to an event, drive like crazy and drive home on a fairly low budget. At my last DE, I got my car up to 130+ mph - legally. What fun! OK, so Anderson or Kibort would have been going 160 in the same stretch, but that doesn't spoil my fun one bit. I don't have any specific racing aspirations, but should I decide to try racing in a couple years, so what if I don't get to stand on the podium??? It is all about fun.

When I hear that the 928 cannot be competitive in PCA club racing, I kinda wonder by what margin??? Just like autocrossing against others that have AX tires, you do some mental math to benchmark performance. If xyz is supposed to be 3 seconds a lap faster than a 928, you must be doing well if the margin is only 2 seconds.

I am always interested in what our favorite 928 racers have to say. For those of us that do not have unlimited financial resources, the balance of $$$ to fun seems to favor our 928s because we do not have to have separate, dedicated track cars to have such excellent fun. If you are choosing a car to dedicate to racing, you should still consider the type of driving experience you wish to have - what do you consider "fun" to go around a track? For example, I don't think that I would like a "momentum" racer very much.

Anyhow, gotta ask the question - why go racing? How is it that we so quickly develop the urge to race? Perhaps tangential to Heinrich's post, but if you are grounded in your purpose and are able to discern between various handling characteristics, and know enough to define your view of fun, the decisions on the type of car you should choose and how far you go setting it up should follow.

heinrich

Interesting perspectiveJames-M, I doubt you'd find many dissenting voices, we agree. I'm trying to form a picture of the car in general as a rcecar, from rcers' perspective. Can a 928 successfully hill climb? How competitive is a 928 by today's standards? What is happning in Northrn Europe, Aus? NZ? How's the car holding up and keeping up? We hear a lot aout North America ... wht bout the rest of the world? And Mark Anderson, with the changes made last year to the rules ... how does he see the car's future as a racing platform?

mark kibort

Im probably going to keep my car in 1987 form, with no changes. mark andersons car is pretty far removed from what you got with a normal 928. we have both run in pro series, and he has done extrememly well with the mods they allowed and especially those they didnt catch, or need to catch (he he)

mine is probably the best bench mark of what the car can do. remember, its posting times at laguna which are the same as when Anderson went to laguna with the 6.5 liter in its early stages, but with 100more hp. so, i think the stock-ish 928 is quite an amazing platform. also, think about it, i have 4 full race seasons on the chassis,and have barely turned a shock adjuster and havent had the engine apart, except to change my cams to even older technology, the 85 cams! stock brakes, stock brake lines, stock steering wheel, no pick up point changes, no accusump, no special radiator, no oil cooler, no chip, computer change. a set of headers and some holes in my stock air box with a kn filter!!!!!

try and find ANY car even 10 years newer that can keep up!

Mk

John Veninger

A 944T

mark kibort

the 360 rear wheel hp guys have been up here, one raced at world challenge, and ran 1:43. so, the ole holbert car certainly hasnt been beat by any of them
the "the phone guys" yellow monster, and quite a few others. the only one i had a problem with was a real real light one from LA. we had the same rear wheel hp, but he weighed about 2200lbs. other than that, there are no 944 turbo race cars that have similar mods that can keep up with the 928. even when they get the power, they just dont seem to handle the road courses as well. maybe autocross!

MK

John Veninger

Isn't there some track records in the West that are held by 944's?
I've seen some 944' that can handle road courses VERY well, so I wouldn't state no 944 w/ similar mods can keep up.
Think Mr. Hanson knows....

mark kibort

they came out to laguna and they really were not even close to my times. and their track records at Portland, were running a little slower than many of the guys i run with here

been wong about times at Road america, but i had some serious rubber issues (turned out to be a 3 seconds differnce at laguna, and backed up by 3 seconds slower at Thunderhill, so in the trash they went. so, i will not be using used hoosiers any time soon!) I put on the barely used toyos from world challenge and instantly saw 2 seconds and 3 seconds when pushed!

generally, my 928 is in the top 10-15 of the speed world Challenge (touring) at most any track.

anyway, you can tell them, whom ever they are, that they can try and proove me wrong anytime! so far, ive yet to see any 944 turbo times that are faster than the stockish 928 would be at all the west coast tracks, that were not heavily modified . (ie there is a 944 turbo in LA that races POC that has 420 rear wheel hp and is 2300lbs and runs a second or so slower than anderson. but it is FAR from stock-ish)

last time hanson was out here, he barely beat me by .5 second at sears and laguna! and, he certainly pounds on the 944 guys up there!

Mk

John Veninger

Here we go trying to define "stockish" and what a 928 could be modified to and what a 944 can be modified to.

A well modified 944 eats a stockish 928. You need an "Anderson" type of car when dealing with a highly modified 944T.
The 944 guys also use 3:09 gears.
Yes, I race a 928 an love it.