the orange car
03-24-2008, 02:13 PM
#61
Drifting
Thread Starter
afshin, its all at a price! i am sure i would not be the first person to have taken quite a nice car and over time make it worth very little 
seriously though, the whole track thing is very addictive and when you have access to the nurburgring, some like minded individuals to share the insanity with and no dependants it all seems to make sense.
setting up the 928 as a track car has been a wicked learning curve, ive definitely done it **** about face by slowly compromising a road car in many many stages. i recall jim bailey making the observation that a lot of cars evolve this way but it is much easier to start by stripping the car and rebuilding. the thing is, unless you already know what you are doing its hard to know where to make the compromises and there is no shortcut to experience, not even the advice from the board when it comes to it. not because people here dont know - they do - its just all the other variables that come into the equation like how much track experience you have and how focused you want the car to be vs how deep your pockets are etc etc.
seriously though, the whole track thing is very addictive and when you have access to the nurburgring, some like minded individuals to share the insanity with and no dependants it all seems to make sense. setting up the 928 as a track car has been a wicked learning curve, ive definitely done it **** about face by slowly compromising a road car in many many stages. i recall jim bailey making the observation that a lot of cars evolve this way but it is much easier to start by stripping the car and rebuilding. the thing is, unless you already know what you are doing its hard to know where to make the compromises and there is no shortcut to experience, not even the advice from the board when it comes to it. not because people here dont know - they do - its just all the other variables that come into the equation like how much track experience you have and how focused you want the car to be vs how deep your pockets are etc etc.
03-24-2008, 05:10 PM
#62
Rennlist Member
Funny, I told you how to do this. you need a wood baseball bat and someone to help push the car front and back. it also is nice to have the front a little lower, plus that will help the handling in a HUGE way. you shouldnt have more than 1 to 2 fingers from the top of the tire to the fender. this way, you dont crack the paint. just keep the bat pointed down and watch to make sure the lip goes in , not out. (best helped by tapping on the edge to start it with the wheel off)
Now, as far as the oil goes. This also confuses me , when i have such good luck with Amzoil that more wouldnt try it. Its not just the Holbert car. Its 175,000mile 84, its the 2 full race season old 5 liter part euro, its the 79 race car, its the Scot 4.5, race car, its the scot 4.7 euro racer (part season) and then its the Scot 5.0 part euro (full season) keep in mind, we are racing these cars at near the same lap times as Anderson ran when he did speed world challenge at laguna and sears with his original 420rwhp engine and slightly more weight. 1:40.xx and 1:51.2 sears. (scot is runninig near that now as well) Point is, we are running the cars hard and more frequent than most.
I really think that keeping the engine off the rev limiter, proper shifting, oil just a hair over the full line, and an oil that doesnt foam or break down as much as the next, could be the reasons of our success. No oil coolers, no accusumps, etc. However, all the guys in the paddocks with this kind of equip have seen issues and they have their theories as well. (accusump failure theories)
anyway, 10-60 might be too thick, its kind of unproven in my book, no one has used it so why take a chance. Heck, if someone like me had had the success i have had with racing the 928s, i surely would try and duplicate all that they did. its a hell of a good bet, rather than trying to blaze new trails along the way.
The fact that you see noticible oil pressure drops, is concerning. we saw this as well, and this all went away with only an oil change in racing conditions.
MK
Now, as far as the oil goes. This also confuses me , when i have such good luck with Amzoil that more wouldnt try it. Its not just the Holbert car. Its 175,000mile 84, its the 2 full race season old 5 liter part euro, its the 79 race car, its the Scot 4.5, race car, its the scot 4.7 euro racer (part season) and then its the Scot 5.0 part euro (full season) keep in mind, we are racing these cars at near the same lap times as Anderson ran when he did speed world challenge at laguna and sears with his original 420rwhp engine and slightly more weight. 1:40.xx and 1:51.2 sears. (scot is runninig near that now as well) Point is, we are running the cars hard and more frequent than most.
I really think that keeping the engine off the rev limiter, proper shifting, oil just a hair over the full line, and an oil that doesnt foam or break down as much as the next, could be the reasons of our success. No oil coolers, no accusumps, etc. However, all the guys in the paddocks with this kind of equip have seen issues and they have their theories as well. (accusump failure theories)
anyway, 10-60 might be too thick, its kind of unproven in my book, no one has used it so why take a chance. Heck, if someone like me had had the success i have had with racing the 928s, i surely would try and duplicate all that they did. its a hell of a good bet, rather than trying to blaze new trails along the way.
The fact that you see noticible oil pressure drops, is concerning. we saw this as well, and this all went away with only an oil change in racing conditions.
MK
brendan, no i couldnt fold the inner edge for the front fender without cracking the paint. my technique was to place a folded towel over the fender edge followed by a piece of wood to distribute the load and then apply some pressure to the lip via a pipe wrench. i did this progressively and got the lip rolled without major paint cracking issues - although i suspect its only a matter of time before some of it lifts.
mark, the oil is castrol 10/60 synthetic. ive no doubt that some oils perform better than others but at this stage it seems to me that the holbert car is an anomaly when it is surrounded by many other engines that have failed on track with oiling probs. i cant remember whether you are planning on any countermeasures for your stroker engine or just amsoil.. it would be a shame to ruin it!
as for the spacers - they are only thick enough to allow for removal of or fitting of some fiddly bolt or other - ive forgotten which ones, or was it the injectors?? cant remember. chris at loe bank motors here in the uk had them machined from stainless and they were not cheap, also needed was a customised gasket iirc.
my hidden agenda in suspending track time was not only to sort issues but also to devote time to other things ie the significant other: http://web.mac.com/wkd928/iWeb/Site%203/Welcome.html oh yeah, and the girlfriend!
mark, the oil is castrol 10/60 synthetic. ive no doubt that some oils perform better than others but at this stage it seems to me that the holbert car is an anomaly when it is surrounded by many other engines that have failed on track with oiling probs. i cant remember whether you are planning on any countermeasures for your stroker engine or just amsoil.. it would be a shame to ruin it!
as for the spacers - they are only thick enough to allow for removal of or fitting of some fiddly bolt or other - ive forgotten which ones, or was it the injectors?? cant remember. chris at loe bank motors here in the uk had them machined from stainless and they were not cheap, also needed was a customised gasket iirc.
my hidden agenda in suspending track time was not only to sort issues but also to devote time to other things ie the significant other: http://web.mac.com/wkd928/iWeb/Site%203/Welcome.html oh yeah, and the girlfriend!
03-24-2008, 05:46 PM
#63
Drifting
Thread Starter
mark, are you using a bat to roll the front fender? i thought that was just for the rear. i cant take the car much lower on the front and still drive it on the road - for no other good reason than the strosek front end has a very pronounced overhang which limits what it can climb over ie the ramp onto the ferry/train etc. i have lowered the 79 more than the 86 and this definitely does improve the handling.
i would not dispute your experience as a 928 racer and i hear what you say with respect to your experience with amzoil, i freely admit to not knowing jack about it all. alex p and i have got some drysump pans to go on our cars, his is being fitted right now, maybe we will still see pressure drops with our home-made systems - i dont know. amzoil isnt so easy to get hold of over here and i think if i bought a barrell of the stuff and kept it here at home it might be the last straw - with rims and car bits already populating most corners of the flat!
i believe alex tried amzoil and still saw pressure drops at the ring - but i will check with him what oil it was, i cant recall exactly. i know he did change to something fairly exotic but still saw pressure drops.
***EDIT*** just spoke to alex who has just been at the ring all easter. it was motul oil he tried, couldnt get amzoil without paying a fortune apparently. alex also believes he can run the 928 on margarine once it is drysumped
i would not dispute your experience as a 928 racer and i hear what you say with respect to your experience with amzoil, i freely admit to not knowing jack about it all. alex p and i have got some drysump pans to go on our cars, his is being fitted right now, maybe we will still see pressure drops with our home-made systems - i dont know. amzoil isnt so easy to get hold of over here and i think if i bought a barrell of the stuff and kept it here at home it might be the last straw - with rims and car bits already populating most corners of the flat!
i believe alex tried amzoil and still saw pressure drops at the ring - but i will check with him what oil it was, i cant recall exactly. i know he did change to something fairly exotic but still saw pressure drops.
***EDIT*** just spoke to alex who has just been at the ring all easter. it was motul oil he tried, couldnt get amzoil without paying a fortune apparently. alex also believes he can run the 928 on margarine once it is drysumped
Last edited by drnick; 03-24-2008 at 06:04 PM.
03-24-2008, 06:17 PM
#64
Rennlist Member
Yes the bat works great on the front fender, but you do have to be much more gentle. you can fold the lip in very effectively and not ruin the paint. it looks like from the picture that you probably are low enough (avitar) but the close up looks a little high. you might need someone to stand on the front of the car to do it, but its definitely a good way to roll the lip.
Motol is pretty good oil , from what i hear (real expensive too) but you might want to try redline 15-15 racing as that was one of the oils i used for a while too.
I cant imagine that the ring is any differnt than any other track, except for that toilet bowl turn, where you have positive Gs in your seat!
accusumps have a weak link in that its been said that they can help in the turns where there is starvation, but then it can help so much there, that there is no oil for the straight. (Vet guys are seeing this)
drysump, i agree, is the way to go.
I dont know a lot about it either, but what i have seen. at 260 degree oil temps, i saw huge drops in pressure, where the light even turned on in the tight turns, but when using the amzoil or redline, this didnt happen anymore. This, plus the nice marketing fluff of the 4ball wear stats, is all i have to go on!
However, with all the racing ive done, its kind of hard to argue with. I just dont think its luck, or a design change in the engine, as scots motor is a 5 liter also, (I built it) , and it is running like a champ and shows no signs of letting go!
If alex is able to tell us, what turns at the "Ring" is he seeing oil pressure drops?
Mk
Motol is pretty good oil , from what i hear (real expensive too) but you might want to try redline 15-15 racing as that was one of the oils i used for a while too.
I cant imagine that the ring is any differnt than any other track, except for that toilet bowl turn, where you have positive Gs in your seat!
accusumps have a weak link in that its been said that they can help in the turns where there is starvation, but then it can help so much there, that there is no oil for the straight. (Vet guys are seeing this)
drysump, i agree, is the way to go.
I dont know a lot about it either, but what i have seen. at 260 degree oil temps, i saw huge drops in pressure, where the light even turned on in the tight turns, but when using the amzoil or redline, this didnt happen anymore. This, plus the nice marketing fluff of the 4ball wear stats, is all i have to go on!
However, with all the racing ive done, its kind of hard to argue with. I just dont think its luck, or a design change in the engine, as scots motor is a 5 liter also, (I built it) , and it is running like a champ and shows no signs of letting go!
If alex is able to tell us, what turns at the "Ring" is he seeing oil pressure drops?
Mk
mark, are you using a bat to roll the front fender? i thought that was just for the rear. i cant take the car much lower on the front and still drive it on the road - for no other good reason than the strosek front end has a very pronounced overhang which limits what it can climb over ie the ramp onto the ferry/train etc. i have lowered the 79 more than the 86 and this definitely does improve the handling.
i would not dispute your experience as a 928 racer and i hear what you say with respect to your experience with amzoil, i freely admit to not knowing jack about it all. alex p and i have got some drysump pans to go on our cars, his is being fitted right now, maybe we will still see pressure drops with our home-made systems - i dont know. amzoil isnt so easy to get hold of over here and i think if i bought a barrell of the stuff and kept it here at home it might be the last straw - with rims and car bits already populating most corners of the flat!
i believe alex tried amzoil and still saw pressure drops at the ring - but i will check with him what oil it was, i cant recall exactly. i know he did change to something fairly exotic but still saw pressure drops.
***EDIT*** just spoke to alex who has just been at the ring all easter. it was motul oil he tried, couldnt get amzoil without paying a fortune apparently. alex also believes he can run the 928 on margarine once it is drysumped
i would not dispute your experience as a 928 racer and i hear what you say with respect to your experience with amzoil, i freely admit to not knowing jack about it all. alex p and i have got some drysump pans to go on our cars, his is being fitted right now, maybe we will still see pressure drops with our home-made systems - i dont know. amzoil isnt so easy to get hold of over here and i think if i bought a barrell of the stuff and kept it here at home it might be the last straw - with rims and car bits already populating most corners of the flat!
i believe alex tried amzoil and still saw pressure drops at the ring - but i will check with him what oil it was, i cant recall exactly. i know he did change to something fairly exotic but still saw pressure drops.
***EDIT*** just spoke to alex who has just been at the ring all easter. it was motul oil he tried, couldnt get amzoil without paying a fortune apparently. alex also believes he can run the 928 on margarine once it is drysumped
03-24-2008, 07:49 PM
#65
But I thought the Accusump was recharging at all times. Thereby, turn (may be used up) - Straight - gets presurized again - etc.
03-24-2008, 08:58 PM
#66
Rennlist Member
i guess there was a lull in the time it took to re-fill. it gave the oil under hard turns, and then on the straight, it pulled oil from the filter to refill itself and starved the engine. there was some discussion of this phenom on the vet list from what i heard. dry sump was the answer. pitch the accusump!
Mk
Mk
03-25-2008, 05:43 AM
#67
Drifting
Thread Starter
mark, you will have to ask alex but i remember he is seeing pressure drops in ice curve and several others. maybe the north american mobil one is thinner than the row? you guys get screwed over on so many things auto related, we had the full fat euro 928 while you guys got cats and smaller engines but seriously, to see drops in oil pressure in slow turns is definitely not good - i havent used mobil one for quite a while now myself.
the reason i havent invested in tracking down a source for amzoil here in the uk is because in my mind no additive package can compete with the crank and rods whipping around at 6k plus right over the tiny sump, to drysump should be the answer. i only wish i had drilled my crank when i was rebuilding!! btw, you should get alexs source for cheap 968 intake valves for the stroker - dont compromise that lovely engines breathing
but seriously, to see drops in oil pressure in slow turns is definitely not good - i havent used mobil one for quite a while now myself.the reason i havent invested in tracking down a source for amzoil here in the uk is because in my mind no additive package can compete with the crank and rods whipping around at 6k plus right over the tiny sump, to drysump should be the answer. i only wish i had drilled my crank when i was rebuilding!! btw, you should get alexs source for cheap 968 intake valves for the stroker - dont compromise that lovely engines breathing
