In-car video from HOD/Devek track day @ Buttonwillow
07-16-2005, 07:58 PM
#16
Drifting
Originally Posted by mark kibort
cool video! what kind of times were you running with alll that balast??
one of the guys we run with, had his car out for that configuation (star mazda turn, bus stop, etc) he was running 2:01 out there. I know thats fast, but those old M3 e36s with the euro 3.2 liters are quick, especially there. pretty good at T-hill, but managable at Laguna seca.
Brendan, he is just reving the engine to match gears on down shift. double cluching is an old term where you used the clutch to put the car in neutral and then put the clutch in again to get it in gear. no real purpose these days. he my be doing some heal toe. usually, a pretty good technique on some turns is to just brake, in gear and when you are neutral on the gas, a quick blip, gear change and on the gear from the apex out. heal toe is really essential with sequencial gear boxes, but not so much for H patterns. (many of the nascar guys are doing this now on road courses)
Mark
one of the guys we run with, had his car out for that configuation (star mazda turn, bus stop, etc) he was running 2:01 out there. I know thats fast, but those old M3 e36s with the euro 3.2 liters are quick, especially there. pretty good at T-hill, but managable at Laguna seca.
Brendan, he is just reving the engine to match gears on down shift. double cluching is an old term where you used the clutch to put the car in neutral and then put the clutch in again to get it in gear. no real purpose these days. he my be doing some heal toe. usually, a pretty good technique on some turns is to just brake, in gear and when you are neutral on the gas, a quick blip, gear change and on the gear from the apex out. heal toe is really essential with sequencial gear boxes, but not so much for H patterns. (many of the nascar guys are doing this now on road courses)
Mark
Actually, he is double clutching...
Dennis,
Cool video as always. Looks to me like you need to get racing, as your skills look much more impressive than many people that race.
07-16-2005, 11:18 PM
#18
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Hey kids -
Some more info about what you're seeing on the video:
Yes, I am heel & toeing AND double clutching my downshifts. Yes double clutching is an archaic method and probably unnecessary, but it sounds cool, feels right, and has taken me years to perfect, so I'm not giving up on it. I learned it because my original intention was to go to the Skip Barber school and at the time, the school cars had non-synchroed gearboxes. I bought the Skippy book and figured it out on my own because I didn't want to waste track time at the school. I never ended up doing the school and now the Skippy cars are sequential shift.
Overall though, it's probably easier on the equipment. The previous gearbox lasted 140K miles, 100+ track days and the synchros were still in good shape.
Marc and I were doing some lead-follow running. I had just spent 3 days at Bwillow the previous weekend, so I knew the line down cold. I was basically taking people for rides all day and following other folks so they could see themselves on video. As soon as Marc gets the rear shocks sorted, I won't be following so closely anymore.
I was having my own issues with water temps as my coolant pressure sensor was leaking. You see Anders pointing out the temperature as we go thru the esses. I knew about it and backed off at the end of the video.
Brendan - yes gloves take a while to get used to. I used to squeeze the wheel really tight because I couldn't get the same feel as barehanded. It took a few track days to get used to it. Now if I go out without them, my hands feel like they're gonna blister.
Mark (K) - times were 2:11 - 2:12 range which I was pretty happy with considering heat and ballast The previous weekend during the PCA time trial, I turned a 2:10.8 with no ballast and 1/4 tank. A 2:01 at Buttonwillow CW#1 is smoking. That's equivalent to a 1:57-1:58 at T-hill (w/ cyclone) and frankly, I've never seen a E36 M3 run sub 2:00. That has to be one heavily modded M3 with a quick driver.
Pierre - I just got back from Sears Point, watching the ALMS & Speed GT cars. You have a PM.
Joseph - Thanks. How about PRC at Sears Point 10/29-31? All you stroker motor boys can go beat up on Cup cars in the race group while I hang out with the DE guys.
81 Shark - Thank you.
Brian - Thanks. That was a 996GT3 Cup car. Normally aspirated, about 380+++ horsepower and only 2500 lb.(!) It's a real thoroughbred race car with Porsche factory money and engineering talent behind its development.
Anders - 240lb?? Are you sure you have your kg->lb conversion right?
Enjoy the open road race. You'll finally be able to go at your normal pace on a US highway . . .
Nicole - Glad you enjoyed it. We'll have to get you out there in your car. Hopefully on a cooler day.
Mark (Red) - Thanks. One day I'll go racing but until then I'm having a good time in the 928 at DE's.
Curt - You've got to run with groups where point-bys are only recommended, not required. Dive bomb!
Whew! This has to be the longest Rennlist message ever. And I still have to find the tape which has a huge, dusty spin on it.
Some more info about what you're seeing on the video:
Yes, I am heel & toeing AND double clutching my downshifts. Yes double clutching is an archaic method and probably unnecessary, but it sounds cool, feels right, and has taken me years to perfect, so I'm not giving up on it. I learned it because my original intention was to go to the Skip Barber school and at the time, the school cars had non-synchroed gearboxes. I bought the Skippy book and figured it out on my own because I didn't want to waste track time at the school. I never ended up doing the school and now the Skippy cars are sequential shift.
Overall though, it's probably easier on the equipment. The previous gearbox lasted 140K miles, 100+ track days and the synchros were still in good shape. Marc and I were doing some lead-follow running. I had just spent 3 days at Bwillow the previous weekend, so I knew the line down cold. I was basically taking people for rides all day and following other folks so they could see themselves on video. As soon as Marc gets the rear shocks sorted, I won't be following so closely anymore.
I was having my own issues with water temps as my coolant pressure sensor was leaking. You see Anders pointing out the temperature as we go thru the esses. I knew about it and backed off at the end of the video. Brendan - yes gloves take a while to get used to. I used to squeeze the wheel really tight because I couldn't get the same feel as barehanded. It took a few track days to get used to it. Now if I go out without them, my hands feel like they're gonna blister.
Mark (K) - times were 2:11 - 2:12 range which I was pretty happy with considering heat and ballast
The previous weekend during the PCA time trial, I turned a 2:10.8 with no ballast and 1/4 tank. A 2:01 at Buttonwillow CW#1 is smoking. That's equivalent to a 1:57-1:58 at T-hill (w/ cyclone) and frankly, I've never seen a E36 M3 run sub 2:00. That has to be one heavily modded M3 with a quick driver. Pierre - I just got back from Sears Point, watching the ALMS & Speed GT cars. You have a PM.
Joseph - Thanks. How about PRC at Sears Point 10/29-31? All you stroker motor boys can go beat up on Cup cars in the race group while I hang out with the DE guys.
81 Shark - Thank you.
Brian - Thanks. That was a 996GT3 Cup car. Normally aspirated, about 380+++ horsepower and only 2500 lb.(!) It's a real thoroughbred race car with Porsche factory money and engineering talent behind its development.
Anders - 240lb?? Are you sure you have your kg->lb conversion right?
Enjoy the open road race. You'll finally be able to go at your normal pace on a US highway . . .Nicole - Glad you enjoyed it. We'll have to get you out there in your car. Hopefully on a cooler day.
Mark (Red) - Thanks. One day I'll go racing but until then I'm having a good time in the 928 at DE's.
Curt - You've got to run with groups where point-bys are only recommended, not required. Dive bomb!
Whew! This has to be the longest Rennlist message ever. And I still have to find the tape which has a huge, dusty spin on it.
07-17-2005, 12:39 AM
#19
Race Director
Originally Posted by Dennis K
Hey kids -
Brendan - yes gloves take a while to get used to. I used to squeeze the wheel really tight because I couldn't get the same feel as barehanded. It took a few track days to get used to it. Now if I go out without them, my hands feel like they're gonna blister.
Brendan - yes gloves take a while to get used to. I used to squeeze the wheel really tight because I couldn't get the same feel as barehanded. It took a few track days to get used to it. Now if I go out without them, my hands feel like they're gonna blister.
Originally Posted by Dennis K
Anders - 240lb?? Are you sure you have your kg->lb conversion right?
Originally Posted by Dennis K
Enjoy the open road race. You'll finally be able to go at your normal pace on a US highway . . .
07-17-2005, 02:50 AM
#21
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double clutching? really, not just bliping the throttle and putting in the downshift? why would you go to neutral and let the clutch out and then put the clutch in and then blip, put it in gear? are you sure you are not just doing a normal downshift with the clutch in and blip to match gears? watching your video, nothing seems that unordinary.... curious.
as far as times. yes, the BMWs are getting down to the 2:01s at buttonwillow. that same car ran 2:01 with out the star mazda and Bruce matesso driving (white e36 euro motor with very few mods and on dots) he ran 1:45 against me at Laguna, and with another pretty good driver at the helm and on slicks, took it to 2:01 at buttonwillow (star mazda turn and bus stop) Yes, these guys are getting into the 1:58s at Thunderhill with the hill, but still on slicks. (2:00 or 2:01 with DOTs) (scott smith) basically just e36bmws with the euro 3.2 engine and a cam with headers. (280hp at the wheels). Im down to 2:02 at t-hill with 2 year old toyos with more heat cycles than i can remember now. I think a new set of hoosiers would at least be a second faster. This is a car that is a true 20 years old, and not the 1995 BMW euro M3 completely rebuilt to be new by most of these guys, also being about 2500lbs too.
for some reason, the 928 runs against these guys better at Laguna (im at 1:40ish while they are in the 1:41s) they also are in the 1:48s at sears while im at 1:50 flat. (probably for the same reasons they are so fast at buttonwillow, and thunderhill due to the combination turns)
I have an easier time with these guys at laguna, and buttonwillow when they run the sweeper and no bus stop.
i think you should finish the cage in your car. a couple of down bars wouldnt make it less streetable . run with us with SCCA. the top 10 cars are very clean and you could have some fun. or, even safer would be the NASA PRC events. with your level of prep, you would have some great racing with the spec 911s. all really nice cars , prepared by rennworks, or jerry woods, and costing up to around $70k. point is, these guys are pretty safe races that care about their cars. Ive even listened to the organizers saying you couldnt even pass anyone til the first turn and no more than 2 wide at any corner. ha ha. but folks did repect the rule and rarely do cars come home bent.
MK
as far as times. yes, the BMWs are getting down to the 2:01s at buttonwillow. that same car ran 2:01 with out the star mazda and Bruce matesso driving (white e36 euro motor with very few mods and on dots) he ran 1:45 against me at Laguna, and with another pretty good driver at the helm and on slicks, took it to 2:01 at buttonwillow (star mazda turn and bus stop) Yes, these guys are getting into the 1:58s at Thunderhill with the hill, but still on slicks. (2:00 or 2:01 with DOTs) (scott smith) basically just e36bmws with the euro 3.2 engine and a cam with headers. (280hp at the wheels). Im down to 2:02 at t-hill with 2 year old toyos with more heat cycles than i can remember now. I think a new set of hoosiers would at least be a second faster. This is a car that is a true 20 years old, and not the 1995 BMW euro M3 completely rebuilt to be new by most of these guys, also being about 2500lbs too.
for some reason, the 928 runs against these guys better at Laguna (im at 1:40ish while they are in the 1:41s) they also are in the 1:48s at sears while im at 1:50 flat. (probably for the same reasons they are so fast at buttonwillow, and thunderhill due to the combination turns)
I have an easier time with these guys at laguna, and buttonwillow when they run the sweeper and no bus stop.
i think you should finish the cage in your car. a couple of down bars wouldnt make it less streetable . run with us with SCCA. the top 10 cars are very clean and you could have some fun. or, even safer would be the NASA PRC events. with your level of prep, you would have some great racing with the spec 911s. all really nice cars , prepared by rennworks, or jerry woods, and costing up to around $70k. point is, these guys are pretty safe races that care about their cars. Ive even listened to the organizers saying you couldnt even pass anyone til the first turn and no more than 2 wide at any corner. ha ha. but folks did repect the rule and rarely do cars come home bent.
MK
Originally Posted by Dennis K
Hey kids -
Some more info about what you're seeing on the video:
Yes, I am heel & toeing AND double clutching my downshifts. Yes double clutching is an archaic method and probably unnecessary, but it sounds cool, feels right, and has taken me years to perfect, so I'm not giving up on it.
Mark (K) - times were 2:11 - 2:12 range which I was pretty happy with considering heat and ballast The previous weekend during the PCA time trial, I turned a 2:10.8 with no ballast and 1/4 tank. A 2:01 at Buttonwillow CW#1 is smoking. That's equivalent to a 1:57-1:58 at T-hill (w/ cyclone) and frankly, I've never seen a E36 M3 run sub 2:00. That has to be one heavily modded M3 with a quick driver.
.
Some more info about what you're seeing on the video:
Yes, I am heel & toeing AND double clutching my downshifts. Yes double clutching is an archaic method and probably unnecessary, but it sounds cool, feels right, and has taken me years to perfect, so I'm not giving up on it.
Mark (K) - times were 2:11 - 2:12 range which I was pretty happy with considering heat and ballast
The previous weekend during the PCA time trial, I turned a 2:10.8 with no ballast and 1/4 tank. A 2:01 at Buttonwillow CW#1 is smoking. That's equivalent to a 1:57-1:58 at T-hill (w/ cyclone) and frankly, I've never seen a E36 M3 run sub 2:00. That has to be one heavily modded M3 with a quick driver. .
07-17-2005, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Dennis K
Curt - You've got to run with groups where point-bys are only recommended, not required. Dive bomb!
I must have misintrepreted the traditional throwing up the hands gesture at 6:47 in the video.
07-17-2005, 11:26 PM
#24
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Curt -
Heh. That throwing up of hands thing is something I must have picked up from watching Michael Andretti too much. I noticed I did that at 1:10 in this video too. What both situations have in common is that I'm WOT (early) and the car in front of me just leaves me for dead. In the 2nd video it's a supercharged NSX kicking my ***. It's more a helpless, "well, there's nothing I can do about THAT" gesture rather than one of frustration.
Mark - Yep I'm doing a full double clutch.
Clutch in
Shift to neutral
Clutch out
Blip
Clutch in
Shift to lower gear
Clutch out.
If I do it right it should be fairly seamless, and look like one motion. My left foot is just moving more than usual.
Heh. That throwing up of hands thing is something I must have picked up from watching Michael Andretti too much.
I noticed I did that at 1:10 in this video too. What both situations have in common is that I'm WOT (early) and the car in front of me just leaves me for dead. In the 2nd video it's a supercharged NSX kicking my ***. It's more a helpless, "well, there's nothing I can do about THAT" gesture rather than one of frustration.Mark - Yep I'm doing a full double clutch.
Clutch in
Shift to neutral
Clutch out
Blip
Clutch in
Shift to lower gear
Clutch out.
If I do it right it should be fairly seamless, and look like one motion. My left foot is just moving more than usual.
07-18-2005, 02:43 AM
#25
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but why??? seems like it is more motions than you would ever need, plus, even harder to match the gears right with all that activity. second, your gear box probably doesnt even know or car that its in neutral with the blip, vs blipping with the clutch in between gears .
whats the advantage or point? really curious
mk
whats the advantage or point? really curious
mk
Originally Posted by Dennis K
Curt -
Mark - Yep I'm doing a full double clutch.
Clutch in
Shift to neutral
Clutch out
Blip
Clutch in
Shift to lower gear
Clutch out.
If I do it right it should be fairly seamless, and look like one motion. My left foot is just moving more than usual.
Mark - Yep I'm doing a full double clutch.
Clutch in
Shift to neutral
Clutch out
Blip
Clutch in
Shift to lower gear
Clutch out.
If I do it right it should be fairly seamless, and look like one motion. My left foot is just moving more than usual.
07-18-2005, 03:24 AM
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Dennis, both Mark Anderson and I will be at Sears Pint on Oct 29-31. Please have Mark Kibort show up so you can show him how to shift 
So who will be there? Mark K.??Don Hanson?? Marc Thomas?? Maybe will have a 928 shoot-out after all
Joseph
So who will be there? Mark K.??Don Hanson?? Marc Thomas?? Maybe will have a 928 shoot-out after all
Joseph
07-18-2005, 03:26 AM
#27
As a matter of fact what Dennis is doing is accellerating the middle ( I think "lay shaft" ) in the trans. There is a shaft that goes all the way through, and when it is accellerated, it makes the downshihft smoother on the trans. I do it all the time in every car, though I think it might not matter in some as much as the 928.
07-18-2005, 10:04 AM
#28
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by mark kibort
Brendan, he is just reving the engine to match gears on down shift. double cluching is an old term where you used the clutch to put the car in neutral and then put the clutch in again to get it in gear. no real purpose these days.
More importantly, a properly executed double-clutch will not upset the chassis while setting up for the corner's turn-in (..of course, a blip-only will do that too).
usually, a pretty good technique on some turns is to just brake, in gear and when you are neutral on the gas, a quick blip, gear change and on the gear from the apex out.
Theoretically, the best-case-scenario is being on the gas before the apex which means an appropriate level of braking and gear-selection has already been done. The end-result should be a higer average speed through the corner, and a higher speed when entering the straight-away.
I am by no means trying to tell you how to drive! But since I'm starting out myself by driving DE's at Road America, I have been thinking about these things and would like to know what you think.
Just for reference, I've been on a track 3 times (..all RA), and my best times for each in event order: 2:52:xx, 2:45:86, and 2:36:11. My car is a completely stock '02 Z06, and the last outing I put on some used V710's.
Last edited by Lagavulin; 07-18-2005 at 10:49 AM.
07-18-2005, 02:40 PM
#29
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Like I said very entertaining... a 3640 lb S-4 (with ballast) with 330 hp or so it is no surprise the GT3 at maybe 2,700 lbs with driver, 380 Hp could pull away.
07-18-2005, 05:58 PM
#30
Rennlist Member
yes, a well timed and metered blip between gears with the clutch in, does do this too. why do you think i have 4 seasons of racing on the S4 and no trans problems, also, no cooler!
double clutching takes time and takes away concentration. im sure no pros ever do this. im also wondering if the 928 transmission has much to gain by doing this. on a 1955 ford truck, maybe, but on a race car?? probably not.
i would think another down side is that you are working your clutch springs 25% more.
Mk
double clutching takes time and takes away concentration. im sure no pros ever do this. im also wondering if the 928 transmission has much to gain by doing this. on a 1955 ford truck, maybe, but on a race car?? probably not.
i would think another down side is that you are working your clutch springs 25% more.
Mk
Originally Posted by Lagavulin
I disagree on the 'no real purpose' part. A proper double-clutch will match the tranny's input-shaft speed with it's output-shaft speed whose end-result is less/no work for the clutch (..friction-wise), and most importantly, less/no work for the synchros, all of which means less heat is generated thus longer life.
More importantly, a properly executed double-clutch will not upset the chassis while setting up for the corner's turn-in (..of course, a blip-only will do that too).
Although it can be done, I don't think it's a good idea since one risks upsetting the chassis at such a mission-critical point of a corner. If the shift is not executed correctly, the chassis bobbles/de-stabilizes, and one must spend time to correct it, thus wasting time before getting on the gas WOT and powering out to the turn-out.
Theoretically, the best-case-scenario is being on the gas before the apex which means an appropriate level of braking and gear-selection has already been done. The end-result should be a higer average speed through the corner, and a higher speed when entering the straight-away.
I am by no means trying to tell you how to drive! But since I'm starting out myself by driving DE's at Road America, I have been thinking about these things and would like to know what you think.
Just for reference, I've been on a track 3 times (..all RA), and my best times for each in event order: 2:52:xx, 2:45:86, and 2:36:11. My car is a completely stock '02 Z06, and the last outing I put on some used V710's.
More importantly, a properly executed double-clutch will not upset the chassis while setting up for the corner's turn-in (..of course, a blip-only will do that too).
Although it can be done, I don't think it's a good idea since one risks upsetting the chassis at such a mission-critical point of a corner. If the shift is not executed correctly, the chassis bobbles/de-stabilizes, and one must spend time to correct it, thus wasting time before getting on the gas WOT and powering out to the turn-out.
Theoretically, the best-case-scenario is being on the gas before the apex which means an appropriate level of braking and gear-selection has already been done. The end-result should be a higer average speed through the corner, and a higher speed when entering the straight-away.
I am by no means trying to tell you how to drive! But since I'm starting out myself by driving DE's at Road America, I have been thinking about these things and would like to know what you think.
Just for reference, I've been on a track 3 times (..all RA), and my best times for each in event order: 2:52:xx, 2:45:86, and 2:36:11. My car is a completely stock '02 Z06, and the last outing I put on some used V710's.