mpesik

This doe's not fall in any unique category!-Designs are copied-(Poor Audi)-Sayings are copied, VCR's are copied, Lays copies Hostess. Advertising is copied,Music-blah-blah blah! I think one starts having a conscience when you actually rip-off an invention-the seed where it began!.... And if I had money to burn I'd pay the price and not shop around for a deal!!! So with yas guys havin the cash to throw away -that's great for you, But I don't!!! -Got a couple of hours over a few beers! Before anyone makes a tiny infintesimal decision to critique- as to get cheap chips- thery're could be other variables that you could NOT understand!! I do what I can!-No one is being hurt!
BTW-Do these chips actually give you exactly as advertised-I'll bet NOT!!! I'm talking about all their chips!
Which chips do you like better Barbeque or Sour Cream-Onion???

Warren928

$650 is highway robbery for chips. I could buy a set of chips for my other cars for $95 to $155 from the BEST chip maker. Just because it says porsche on it, doesnt mean we all have to grab our ankles for some greedy little pig!

AO

Intellectual property is just that... property. Let's say you invented something really cool that you could sell for say, $700 a pop. It doesn't matter what it is. You've done the reseach and you've clearly decided that @ $700 you will maximize your return on investment. This is Econ 101. Sure there are people that are willing to pay $1,000, The get a deal of a lifetime. Then there are people like Warren (no offense) that think $700 is too much. That's fine they don't get to buy it. But that doesn't mean that others should go around your back to buy a knock-off of your cool invention for $100. I think you'd be pissed. If you wanted to sell it at $100 in the 1st place you would have priced it at that price. You are trying to maximize the area under your demand curve... that's all.

Now with that said... I'm not sure if chips fall under copyrights or patents, but I think it's the former. And I'm not sure if there is a time limit on this or not... me thinks not. But if it were say 20 years, then we should be nearing the point were this is a non-issue.

I know that the company that I work for is VERY adimant about protecting its intellectual property, and we will prosecute anyone who tries to use it without a license agreement. I know this because it's my job (managing license agreements - not prosecuting... not a lawyer).

Remember our economy is based on the "free market" (i know, let's not get into that one...) and the only way the market can work is if property rights (itellectual or otherwise) are respected, and enforced.

Just my $9.82.

BTW, I do have a set of knock off manuals... (More fuel for the flame I'm about to receive! )

Warren928

Here's the great thing about a free market too Andrew,

A guy on ebay could take the chip code from Auto Authority, modify it by a couple of digits in programming code, which makes no difference in performance, then sell it as something "different or better".
We are all speculating that the chips on ebay havent been changed from auto authority slightly, but nobody has tested them to see if they are clones. If the guy on ebay has any brains, all he has to do is change the code slightly and now he has a new product, no more of a rip off than auto authority taking base codes from OEM and modifying them.

Its just like how the porsche performance chip manufacturer most likely got their base curves from the OEM Porsche chip and changed it slightly to make more performance.

Thats not invention, thats modification or even perversion. Some people see chips as a liability to engine longevity, others see them as over inflated numbers that never add up to actual performace figures advertised. I just see them as a slight boost in performance and kind of a gimmick.

AO

Actually, Warren, you can't that. It's illegal. That was the whole thing with the PC industry. IBM had the chip call a CMOS chip that PC's needed to run. Compaq bought one, and without downloading the code on the chip, reverse-engineered the functionality of the chip by looking at how it functions. Now that is legal. If someone spent the time to engineer/reverse-engineer similar functioning chips, then there is no question - they are legal. The problem is that we all know these are most likely knock-offs. Someone downloaded the code and started burning EPROMs. Even if they modified the code slightly it's still illegal as the original R&D was done by the copyright/patent holder.

If what you are saying is true... then I could take a song, say something from the Beastie Boys or Elvis Costello, add a few beats here and there and call it different enough to let me sell it for pennies on the dollar. Do you think the RIA would stand for that? Heck no.

But I agree, ebay is awash with people that take someone elses ideas/property and try to market it as different just to make a quick buck. Someday, that will end. We just haven't reached a point where the benefits to taking action are great enough.

BTW, I also buy the porsche logo wear (key chains, shirts, etc.). So am I a hypocrite? Damn straight!

abduln

Hi Warren,

What you said would be true if we were talking about patents. You are permitted to do derivitive work with patented "inventions", and if it's different enough, in certain cases, then you can call it yours. However we are talking about copyright, which is a bit different. You can't do derivitive work with a copyright unless if fall under the strict guidelines of fair use.

As for a few of the others...

...who feel Autothority is robbing them by simply making an offer to sell you something, I think you really need to look up the definiton of robbery in the dictionary because it's not what you seem to think it is. Autothority is not reaching into our wallets and taking the money when they simply offer to sell you something an item (buy it or don't buy it). When you buy their IP from a theif who has stolen it, you are giving money to the theif who reached into Autothority's wallet and took their money... You are basically paying a theif to steal for you, which makes you an accessory to theft (since you are basically their fence).

I'm not holier than thou, in that I have downloaded MP3's and software (eventually bought the legit copies, but that's no excuse), but on the occasion that I have downloaded an MP3 or two I never pretended that it was anybody elses fault but mine, and if I ever get in trouble for it I'll have nobody to blame but myself.

I'm not trying to act like anboyd's dad or preacher. Do what you want, but don't pretend that you are not committing a crime and contributing to a crime, and don't pretend you are Robin Hood. It's a little easier to respect when sombody just says "hey, I stole it because I want it and I don't want to pay for it and it's nobody's fault but mine".

Regards,
Abdul

mpesik

Once again, is Autothority true to their word on H.P increases!! Are you getting as advertised!!_ If no false advertising-The Bastards should be sued!!

abduln

Michael,

You seem to think that your arbitrary willingness to "bet" is somehow evidence that Autothority is advertising falsely. I'd suggest that since you have evidence that you submit it to the state attorney general, as well as the US post office with a fraud report. Those entities do field those submissions. Somehow, I'm guessing that your hunch has no substantiation, and is in fact a way to make you feel better about people ripping vendors off.

In fact, the only evidence that I know of is against you since European Car magazine has actually tested Autothority chips on a dyno in more than a few projects, and this goes back to when they were Porsche & Volkswagon Magazine. In every project I've seen Autothority pulled through. Strike 1 for you, score for them. Sorry to be a little sarcastic, but you seem just so bent on justifying theft that you'll even libel your target... What you propose is no different that a shoplifter or car thief trying to justify theft by saying stores charge too much for clothes and also lie about them even being clothes, or that Porsche charges too much for their cars and they don't even perform as well as they claim.

Let me ask you this, if Autothority lies about their chips gains and is so unethical and should be sued, why would you even buy their bootlegged chips? And then why would you claim that you would pay for them if you could afford them? So per your logic... they are crappy chips that you want so badly you would get stolen ones, or even pay full price for if you could afford it. Yeah, that makes real sense. Or maybe they are good chips worth buying since you want them so badly that you would buy stolen property and just speak ill about the original authors to justify your actions. Or somehow they are crap chips and you just want to toss money, that you claimed you can't waste, at a theif that wants to send them to you... which is it? Like I said, makes real sense.

In a previous post you stated that...

"designs are copied-(Poor Audi)-Sayings are copied, VCR's are copied, Lays copies Hostess. Advertising is copied,Music-blah-blah blah!"

It's hard to copyright a car design, so most mimicked car designs are legal, as long as you don't imply or pretend the copy is the original and as long as it doesn't blatently emulate the original vehicle. VCR's are not copied, they are legally licensed.. the originator was consenting and was compensated for those "copies". Lays copies Hostess? Sorry, but the recipies for most foods are not copyrightable (you can't copyright a fried potato chip, and if you could it would have expired long before hostess and lays ever existied... copyrights and patents expire). In case you didn't know (it seems you don't), many of those copied advertisements are created by the same advertising company that originated the original; additionally, it's legal to parody or use copyrighted material in certain circumstances... everything you cited has a certain legal context... buying stolen IP is not legal under any circumstance.

Finally, you wrote...

"And if I had money to burn I'd pay the price and not shop around for a deal!!! So with yas guys havin the cash to throw away -that's great for you, But I don't!!! -Got a couple of hours over a few beers! Before anyone makes a tiny infintesimal decision to critique- as to get cheap chips- thery're could be other variables that you could NOT understand!! I do what I can!-No one is being hurt!"

So basically, in your own words, you want a "deal". You don't want to pay the proper owner of the IP, or you can't afford it. Therefore you feel that gives you the right to steal it... oh I'm sorry, have somebody steal it for you. If you can't afford to "waste" your money, you have no business modifying your car... sell it and buy a Kia, maybe then you'll have more money. Oh here's an idea... maybe you can actually save some money and buy the legit chips when you can afford it, what a concept. So naturally you seem to think that you are some exception that to the rule of law, which I'm guessing does not apply to anybody who thinks about stealing from you, and anybody who contests your right to steal just can't possibly "understand". You know what, I don't make loads of money, and the chips are expensive to me too... but I'm an adult, resposible for my actions, and I'm mature enough to know that if I can't afford something, that doesn't give me the right to just take it, or pay sombody else to take it.

You know, I'm not on your case because I"m trying to be a jerk. I'm on your case because I have had people steal from me, my friends, my family, my employer, etc... we are all effected by theft, so when you steal something you are contributing to sombody's pain... maybe it'll effect somebody I know, or maybe sombody elses friends/family. You say nobody gets hurt by your avoiding paying Autothority ~$700 for some chips that you feel you are entitled to... So if your employer decides to not pay you $700 by work you did for them, I hope you remember by your logic their refusal to pay you won't hurt you.

Do what you want, but don't pretend you are in the right just so you can sleep at night or convince people to respect your decision... yes it is a decision on your part, you won't die if you don't buy these chips and your car will still work. And if you do buy the stolen chips, the next time sombody rips you off, don't complain because you will be no better or different than the person who stole from you... and I'm sure they will have all the same excuses you have, and probably even more.

I don't mean to be mean or personal, for all I know you could be the nicest person in the world, I'm just worried about the light matter of ethics and/or principles you are displaying in this thread. I'm just calling it like I see it.

Have a great day.
Abdul

mpesik

Wow Abdul. You have typed quite a bit. Anyway, what you say is good-but I believe things are not always cut and dry!. I'll get back to you soon! need some more info. Thanks for spending the time!
BTW-Have you ever recorded anything off of T.V?- They do have hundreds of models to choose from for this purpose alone!!. It's alright though-everyone's got one.-How far do you want to go?

heinrich

Abdul why are you being such a *****? Mike, excellent response
Heinrich

Greggles

For those who are just tuning in. Here is what we've learned so far.

Chips are over priced
Using bootleg chips is ethically wrong
Only half of the 928 rennlisters have any morals
Abdul hates thieves & can write very long responses

morganabowen

To this I say "Chips Ahoy"
BASTARDS

abduln

Michael:

That's a more than fair response. I liked that you posted the informal poll about the effect of chips, interesting thread. By the way, I didn't point out that in my heated debate, I don't mean anything personal... I do know that I don't know you, and despite my crack about possibly being light in the ethics department, which is probably pretty harsh on my part. I do know that it wouldn't be fair to truly accuse you of being unethical or unprincipled never having met you. Hope that makes sense.

As for taping from TV, yes I have. It's legal to tape a tv show under the fair use rules. I can't sell it, I can't charge people to view it, and I can't distribute it en masse. But I am allowed to tape it and watch it for my own viewing.

Heinrich:

Why am I a ***** for advocating not stealing? If you argue against somebody stealing a car, are you a *****? How would you feel if sombody called you a ***** because you try to discourage theft. I actually feel that you would respect me more if I just said I bought some stolen chips! That's very odd, in my opinion. Well, if I'm a ***** so be it, at least you know that I'm a ***** who won't be buying your stolen property.

Am I a puppet for my employer. Not really. I realized theft was wrong the very day I got arrested for shoplifing (I was 15) from a retailer who I thought would get hurt from my theft... I got arrested and I realized I had become scum. That was the end of my short criminal carreer. And now i work on making sure people don't steal from you (the plural you)... So I'm not motivated by my employers stance on theft, but rather my own.

As for why I am such a "*****". Have you ever had anything stolen from you? I have, too many times. I'm guessing you have. I find it unacceptable, maybe you don't care if people steal from you. I have personal property stolen. I have my work (software) stolen everyday... I'm not rich, the people who I work with are not rich, the people who I work for are not rich. I just know that we don't get paid as much as we should, and that we can't hire as many people as we could because about 30% of our software is stolen software. Imagine if sombody were stealing 30% of your income and called you a ***** because you thought it was wrong... very odd.

In the end, we all do bad things that we justify as okay... I do it too. I'm just trying step above that on occasion to make a little change in the world to make it a better place... I'm just trying to convince sombody not to commit a crime... I made myself not use the cloned chips, and I'm asking others to consider the same because it is a crime.

Take care,
Abdul

heinrich

Abdul, your intent is honourable. However your tirade here will not achieve anything. You cannot argue anyone into your way of thinking, you have to approach people in a positive manner. I don't know how old you are Abdul, but when I was younger I thought exactly like you do .... in hard and fast terms.

Life isn't like that.

Abdul, buying chips or anything online is not theft. You were so caustically chiding Mike into looking things up ... go look the word "theft" up Abdul. Paying money for an item that is placed into your hands, when that item is NOT stolen, is perfectly normal. And perfectly acceptable. I am in agreement with you that the person copying and selling those chips should take a good hard look at what value they are adding to life in general, but I still cannot bring myself to calling that theft. It is very different, because these chips were designed by Porsche, their code I mean, and that is what is required to make your car run. The only value-add is the few small modifications to the code.

I know someone who can easily modify this code and reburn it. I have two sets of chips from him on my kitchen table. He gave them to me in trade for something else. Now, he made modifications to those chips, he didn't just pop them into a copier and say Voila, c'est fini ....... and ka-ching pay me some money .....

If you copied software, edited the source code to make it do different things .... and then sold your product ... would that be OK? Is it OK for Autothority to do so? Is it OK for you to do so? Is it OK for Autothority to do so? Is it OK for you to do so? Is it OK for Autothority to do so? Is it OK for you to do so? Is it OK for Autothority to do so? Is it OK for you to do so? Is it OK for Autothority to do so? Is it OK for you to do so? Is it OK for Autothority to do so?

Think in softer, gentler terms. Think about real life, real people, real applications, stop thinking your view is the only view in the world that is the ABSOLUTE TRUTH and there is no other. This is friendly advice Abdul .... trust me, you will see your own hard and fast rules change. If your child's life could be saved by outright stealing a vial of medicine, would you do so? How about if my child's life were in the scales, would you steal to save her? Hmmmmmmmm? ............

dr bob

As I mentioned previously: If you think is isn't stealing, call the folks who supplied the code originally. Are they copies of Autothority chips? Call Autothority and ask if it's OK.

I've received phone calls from folks asking for tech support on software that they 'got a copy of'. They honestly believed that a) they shouldn't have to pay for the software to use it, and b) they deserved some tech support to get it working in their situation. After their little 'try-out' period they might consider a licensed copy. The stuff I sell brings value to the user in the hundrersd of thousands of dollars per year range. Then somebody comes along and thinks that I already made my money on the first sale, so if they use a copy it's somehow OK and I won't get 'hurt'.

Unfortunately, the Autothorities of the world have no way to make their code specific to a certain VIN or car. They still sell them to fit the buyer's car. Deep inside the paperwork that comes with the chipset is a license agreement where you agree to safeguard the code by not copying it. If you don't like the terms, Autothority will very cheerfully refund your money.

Has someone else gone and reverse-engineered the code for a 928? Done some mods to enhance the performance a bit? Are they willing to offer their code into the public domain, for anybody's use? If so, making copies is fine. If you and your so-called friends are just making copies of code that is protected by both copyright and a separate contract, then you are stealing.

This is, in fact, an ABSOLUTE TRUTH, for real life and for real people. If you think things like this need to be thought of is "softer, gentler terms", think again. Your analogy to a life-and-death situation is absurd, by the way. But let's carry that on for a second and see where it goes. Say you have spent a fortune in time and money to create that wonder drug that can save a child's life. You put it on the market at a price that reflects the total development, testing, and FDA certification costs. You have sixteen other drugs in various stages of the same process, stockholders or other investors to report to, and they for some reason want to make back some of their invested dollars. Your market price reflects these factors, along with a bit of marketing sense that says that you will be able to sell N doses of this within the next five years, and at your price you will be able to recover your costs, plus have an opportunity to make a profit before your patent protection expires. In the middle of this, some jackass decides to knock off your product and sell it cheap. They do it for "humanitarian" reasons and certainly not for the money. Meanwhile, you are stuck with all the development costs and no market. Did you do something wrong? No, of course not. Will you prevail in court? Certainly. Collect damages from the maker of the knock-off equivalent to the lost sales you experienced? Maybe.

Meanwhile, other jackasses line up to buy the cheap copies of the product you developed. It's OK, because some jackass actually perpetrated the fraud for them. They certainly aren't guilty of anything, at least in their own little jackass minds. They could afford to pay the original cost of the drug, but instead share the glee as they and their jackass friends figure a way to avoid sharing your development costs and risk.


Wiggle your floppy ears if you think that you should get this stuff without paying the guys who developed it.