Duel disk clutch job - What am I getting myself into?
06-08-2006, 10:17 AM
#226
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Originally Posted by Hacker-Pschorr
When I report with updates - the test is performed with the car stationary using reverse to judge if the clutch is releasing or not (why reverse some might ask? No synchros, so you know right away if things are working or not). Looking back upon my 928 life, I can recall how many people I knew with early 928’s that would always grind in reverse – people just shrugged it off as “how 928’s are”. Little did they know, they were grinding down their synchros every time they shifted. Ok, back on topic.
06-08-2006, 10:49 AM
#227
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That is very odd.
Anyone have any thoughts about my release bearing to the pressure plate? Like I said earlier, my release bearing was not very tight onto the splines on the pressure plate. I could move it around pretty freely - until the shaft guide that pokes out made contact with the spline. Shouldn't the release bearing be super tight, centered on the splines or is it designed to slide around a bit?
EDIT - Nevermind
The more I thought about this I realized once the guide tube & shaft are in place, the release bearing is "stuck" in the center - reason why that guide tube is there in the first place.
A Glen and others have suggested, what if the guide tube is bent? Not sure on that one, When I preassembled everything on the work bench, everything went together nice and smooth.
I'm ordering an intermediate disc - hopefully it will be there tomorrow - drive the car this weekend. After I replace the intermediate disc - if the problem is still there, I am parking the car, transferring the blower to the 79 and walking away.
Anyone have any thoughts about my release bearing to the pressure plate? Like I said earlier, my release bearing was not very tight onto the splines on the pressure plate. I could move it around pretty freely - until the shaft guide that pokes out made contact with the spline. Shouldn't the release bearing be super tight, centered on the splines or is it designed to slide around a bit?
EDIT - Nevermind
The more I thought about this I realized once the guide tube & shaft are in place, the release bearing is "stuck" in the center - reason why that guide tube is there in the first place.
A Glen and others have suggested, what if the guide tube is bent? Not sure on that one, When I preassembled everything on the work bench, everything went together nice and smooth.
I'm ordering an intermediate disc - hopefully it will be there tomorrow - drive the car this weekend. After I replace the intermediate disc - if the problem is still there, I am parking the car, transferring the blower to the 79 and walking away.
Last edited by hacker-pschorr; 06-08-2006 at 11:05 AM.
06-08-2006, 11:40 AM
#228
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OK, did you adjust the t-adjusters on the intermediate plate to the spec in the manual? F that.....wing those puppies all the way out.
see: http://members.rennlist.com/jeifert/DD-CLUTCH-REP.html
JE
see: http://members.rennlist.com/jeifert/DD-CLUTCH-REP.html
JE
Originally Posted by Hacker-Pschorr
Time for a recap, the following items are brand new (less than a week) in this car, replaced in this order:
1. Clutch Master
2. Clutch Slave
3. Blue hose
4. Rubber pressure line between the master & slave
Bled using the pressureize the cap, bleed through the slave method
Bled using the force fluid up through the system via the slave
5. Pilot bearing
6. Clutch shaft (using the proper grease)
7. Many pieces of skin on my left arm
8. Bled using the "burp the master" idea
From day one to now, no change in clutch performance.
1. Clutch Master
2. Clutch Slave
3. Blue hose
4. Rubber pressure line between the master & slave
Bled using the pressureize the cap, bleed through the slave method
Bled using the force fluid up through the system via the slave
5. Pilot bearing
6. Clutch shaft (using the proper grease)
7. Many pieces of skin on my left arm
8. Bled using the "burp the master" idea
From day one to now, no change in clutch performance.
06-08-2006, 11:56 AM
#229
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JE,
Even if it was adjusted wrong - it would always be wrong. The killer part of this problem is my clutch goes from working perfect to not at all, over and over again.
Rewind back to page 1 or so. The first thing I did when my cutch crapped out was drop the car off at Page Auto - let Jim have a go at it. He's adjusted more of these than most of us combined (replaced his first 928 clutch in 1980 - how many can claim that?). Anyway - he called me with the bad news, the intermediate disc was not holding adjustment, just like before (2004 my ID died, put in a new one). He has a bellhousing with a large hole cut in it, with someone operating the clutch from inside the car - he was underneith watching the clutch movement (with the car running).
So, with that knowledge, why on earth did I bother with this saga? I rolled the dice that once in my 928 life Jim Page was going to be wrong - well, guess what. He's batting 1,000 at this point. I guess 30+ years of doing nothing but fixing European cars pays off. So a new ID is what I'm going to install next.
Even if it was adjusted wrong - it would always be wrong. The killer part of this problem is my clutch goes from working perfect to not at all, over and over again.
Rewind back to page 1 or so. The first thing I did when my cutch crapped out was drop the car off at Page Auto - let Jim have a go at it. He's adjusted more of these than most of us combined (replaced his first 928 clutch in 1980 - how many can claim that?). Anyway - he called me with the bad news, the intermediate disc was not holding adjustment, just like before (2004 my ID died, put in a new one). He has a bellhousing with a large hole cut in it, with someone operating the clutch from inside the car - he was underneith watching the clutch movement (with the car running).
So, with that knowledge, why on earth did I bother with this saga? I rolled the dice that once in my 928 life Jim Page was going to be wrong - well, guess what. He's batting 1,000 at this point. I guess 30+ years of doing nothing but fixing European cars pays off. So a new ID is what I'm going to install next.
06-08-2006, 12:57 PM
#230
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Did you replace the ball cup on the end of the release arm? If that's coming apart it might not act the same every time you push the clutch pedal....
06-08-2006, 01:08 PM
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Ahhhh.....well, hell....that makes perfect sense to me.....replace the freeking intermediate plate. My personal opinion is that the older cars actually don't have many synchro problems....they have intermediate plate problems.....it's the core of most DD clutch problems. But that's a personal opinion. Yea....replace that puppy.
Originally Posted by Hacker-Pschorr
JE,
Even if it was adjusted wrong - it would always be wrong. The killer part of this problem is my clutch goes from working perfect to not at all, over and over again.
Rewind back to page 1 or so. The first thing I did when my cutch crapped out was drop the car off at Page Auto - let Jim have a go at it. He's adjusted more of these than most of us combined (replaced his first 928 clutch in 1980 - how many can claim that?). Anyway - he called me with the bad news, the intermediate disc was not holding adjustment, just like before (2004 my ID died, put in a new one). He has a bellhousing with a large hole cut in it, with someone operating the clutch from inside the car - he was underneith watching the clutch movement (with the car running).
So, with that knowledge, why on earth did I bother with this saga? I rolled the dice that once in my 928 life Jim Page was going to be wrong - well, guess what. He's batting 1,000 at this point. I guess 30+ years of doing nothing but fixing European cars pays off. So a new ID is what I'm going to install next.
Even if it was adjusted wrong - it would always be wrong. The killer part of this problem is my clutch goes from working perfect to not at all, over and over again.
Rewind back to page 1 or so. The first thing I did when my cutch crapped out was drop the car off at Page Auto - let Jim have a go at it. He's adjusted more of these than most of us combined (replaced his first 928 clutch in 1980 - how many can claim that?). Anyway - he called me with the bad news, the intermediate disc was not holding adjustment, just like before (2004 my ID died, put in a new one). He has a bellhousing with a large hole cut in it, with someone operating the clutch from inside the car - he was underneith watching the clutch movement (with the car running).
So, with that knowledge, why on earth did I bother with this saga? I rolled the dice that once in my 928 life Jim Page was going to be wrong - well, guess what. He's batting 1,000 at this point. I guess 30+ years of doing nothing but fixing European cars pays off. So a new ID is what I'm going to install next.
06-08-2006, 01:53 PM
#232
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Originally Posted by JE928Sx4
Ahhhh.....well, hell....that makes perfect sense to me.....replace the freeking intermediate plate. My personal opinion is that the older cars actually don't have many synchro problems....they have intermediate plate problems.....it's the core of most DD clutch problems. But that's a personal opinion. Yea....replace that puppy.
At $600 - $800 per disc (depending on who you call and who can even get one) I can swap the duel disc for an S4 setup for not much more. This is why I've been trying everything but that disc. The one in my car is almost new - so what, I'll replace this damn thing every 2 years? No way - I would rather have the "inferior" single disc setup that actually works.
Shark,
It looked fine - I know I should have replaced it. Next time it comes apart I will just for the heck of it.
On a side note - if anyone has a spare / used pressure plate lying around - care to let me try it? Something is bugging me about my install. When I pulled out the spacers I put in the pressure plate to attach the fork to the ball - it did not "spring" back into place like I thought it sould have. So I wonder if the springs on my pressure plate are whats causing this. Before I buy a new one, I would like to try a different one just to see what happens.
06-08-2006, 02:00 PM
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I understand your dilema. 
Originally Posted by Hacker-Pschorr
You make it sound so simple
At $600 - $800 per disc (depending on who you call and who can even get one) I can swap the duel disc for an S4 setup for not much more. This is why I've been trying everything but that disc. The one in my car is almost new - so what, I'll replace this damn thing every 2 years? No way - I would rather have the "inferior" single disc setup that actually works.
Shark,
It looked fine - I know I should have replaced it. Next time it comes apart I will just for the heck of it.
On a side note - if anyone has a spare / used pressure plate lying around - care to let me try it? Something is bugging me about my install. When I pulled out the spacers I put in the pressure plate to attach the fork to the ball - it did not "spring" back into place like I thought it sould have. So I wonder if the springs on my pressure plate are whats causing this. Before I buy a new one, I would like to try a different one just to see what happens.
At $600 - $800 per disc (depending on who you call and who can even get one) I can swap the duel disc for an S4 setup for not much more. This is why I've been trying everything but that disc. The one in my car is almost new - so what, I'll replace this damn thing every 2 years? No way - I would rather have the "inferior" single disc setup that actually works.
Shark,
It looked fine - I know I should have replaced it. Next time it comes apart I will just for the heck of it.
On a side note - if anyone has a spare / used pressure plate lying around - care to let me try it? Something is bugging me about my install. When I pulled out the spacers I put in the pressure plate to attach the fork to the ball - it did not "spring" back into place like I thought it sould have. So I wonder if the springs on my pressure plate are whats causing this. Before I buy a new one, I would like to try a different one just to see what happens.
06-10-2006, 01:54 AM
#234
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Clutch Take 2 - Lets look at the release bearing
Original Thread:
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273590
Mark Anderson red labelled an intermediate disc and pressure plate - THANKS MARK!!!! Both are used - look new. So, took everything out, noticed something I really didn't notice the first time it was out (few days ago). First thing I noticed is the t-adjusters on the ID in my car and the one mark sent me seam about the same tightness. I know, hard to really tell, just making an observation.
I want to make sure my release bearing isn't "bad" before I put everything back in. Does this look like "normal" movement with the clutch out? With the clutch installed, it stays centered & the wear pattern looks normal. I have a bell housing with a hole cut in it to watch what is going on. If this is the issue, anyone care to share how to remove the release bearing?
Video:
http://members.rennlist.com/hacker_p...ch%20Video.mpg
Release Bearing Pics:
The gap shown here is when I push the bearing all the way to one side – when installed, it looks to stay centered:
Misc pics of the discs:
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273590
Mark Anderson red labelled an intermediate disc and pressure plate - THANKS MARK!!!! Both are used - look new. So, took everything out, noticed something I really didn't notice the first time it was out (few days ago). First thing I noticed is the t-adjusters on the ID in my car and the one mark sent me seam about the same tightness. I know, hard to really tell, just making an observation.
I want to make sure my release bearing isn't "bad" before I put everything back in. Does this look like "normal" movement with the clutch out? With the clutch installed, it stays centered & the wear pattern looks normal. I have a bell housing with a hole cut in it to watch what is going on. If this is the issue, anyone care to share how to remove the release bearing?
Video:
http://members.rennlist.com/hacker_p...ch%20Video.mpg
Release Bearing Pics:
The gap shown here is when I push the bearing all the way to one side – when installed, it looks to stay centered:
Misc pics of the discs:
Last edited by hacker-pschorr; 06-10-2006 at 12:58 PM.
06-10-2006, 02:13 AM
#235
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Your video doesn't play in Quicktime or WMP.
What cracks in the release bearing? The only thing I see that looks like a crack is in the retaining ring near the bottom of your outline. I think my old release bearing moved that far but the new one was tighter and I didn't try to force it to move that far. The pressure plate fingers were held tighter between the spring washer and the thrust washer.
What cracks in the release bearing? The only thing I see that looks like a crack is in the retaining ring near the bottom of your outline. I think my old release bearing moved that far but the new one was tighter and I didn't try to force it to move that far. The pressure plate fingers were held tighter between the spring washer and the thrust washer.
06-10-2006, 02:16 AM
#236
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Video is MPEG2 - should play in WMP - try downloading it, then playing it.
The crack is in the retaining ring.
The crack is in the retaining ring.
06-10-2006, 02:26 AM
#237
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I should pay attention when reading. 
Do you have an extra retaining ring? I wouldn't want that thing breaking loose in the clutch. Other than potential breakage of the ring, I don't see a problem with it. It doesn't look like it's gauging out the bearing or the thrust washer.
I got the video to work in VLC player. It looks like I remember mine being.
Do you have an extra retaining ring? I wouldn't want that thing breaking loose in the clutch. Other than potential breakage of the ring, I don't see a problem with it. It doesn't look like it's gauging out the bearing or the thrust washer.I got the video to work in VLC player. It looks like I remember mine being.
06-10-2006, 03:57 AM
#238
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The release bearing should come out if you place the big end towards the floor, with the pressure plate friction surface facing up. Place your knees on the PP friction surface and this will compress the conical spring shim and allow you to spread apart the retaining clip ring and pry it up with a screwdriver. How does the bearing sound?
06-10-2006, 12:57 PM
#239
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Charlie,
Thank you - that may come in handy if I decide to move the release bearing to the new(used) pressure plate Mark A sent me.
I'm closing this thread - questioned answered on the release bearing to focus attention back to the original:
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273590
Thank you - that may come in handy if I decide to move the release bearing to the new(used) pressure plate Mark A sent me.
I'm closing this thread - questioned answered on the release bearing to focus attention back to the original:
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273590
06-10-2006, 01:14 PM
#240
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Quick release bearing side thread:
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279123
At about 4am I finished the latest chapter of this project. Wife woke me up at 7am to join her (as a spectator) for the 6 mile marathon she ran this morning. Yea, I'm tired.
Completed this round:
New ball cup thing for the release fork. Old one looked fine.
Used intermediate disc from Mark Anderson (Thanks Mark!)
Bad News: Clutch will not disengaged at all
Good News: Clutch will not disengage at all - this is good news if an improperly adjusted intermediate disc is the cause. Before it would go from bad - good - bad over and over. So at least now it's consistent!!
Back to the garage to install the bell housing with the large hole in it, see what the clutch is doing.
After this job I'm installing Carl's small starter. Taking the stock one off / on is a royal bitch. Not to mention it's in the way of the slave clutch line.
Oh yea, now my car is idling at 1,500rpm or so - not sure why, did not touch anything under the hood from the last time I started the car.
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279123
At about 4am I finished the latest chapter of this project. Wife woke me up at 7am to join her (as a spectator) for the 6 mile marathon she ran this morning. Yea, I'm tired.
Completed this round:
New ball cup thing for the release fork. Old one looked fine.
Used intermediate disc from Mark Anderson (Thanks Mark!)
Bad News: Clutch will not disengaged at all
Good News: Clutch will not disengage at all - this is good news if an improperly adjusted intermediate disc is the cause. Before it would go from bad - good - bad over and over. So at least now it's consistent!!
Back to the garage to install the bell housing with the large hole in it, see what the clutch is doing.
After this job I'm installing Carl's small starter. Taking the stock one off / on is a royal bitch. Not to mention it's in the way of the slave clutch line.
Oh yea, now my car is idling at 1,500rpm or so - not sure why, did not touch anything under the hood from the last time I started the car.