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I have had similar issues with gallon cans of Weldwood HHR glue and got one more use out of them by adding a couple of ounces of MEK and then mixing thoroughly with a paint mixing paddle chucked up in an electric drill. Outside and upwind, that stuff is nasty.
But I think this may be a non-starter for Jerry given the narrow neck of the bottle he's working with.
Here is an example of woven leather with backing that Singer produces for its customers. The materials appear to be stable and the leather remains in place within the pattern.
Fun project Jerry, hope it works out and you fulfill this vision...
Thanks guys for your input. I have one glimmer of hope for this can or Cement and that is that after I brushed some of the mess that is in the can right now, or a couple of days ago, and then brushed the flattened clumps off of it, last evening I noticed that I actually had a very thin layer of the cement on the back of one of my fingers. That is telling me that the MEK is actually dissolving the cement, but apparently very slowly. I think I might fashion some kind of screw mixer that will fit down into the can and try forcefully mixing it a few times to see if the glue will all dissolve in the MEK.
Thanks guys for your input. I have one glimmer of hope for this can or Cement and that is that after I brushed some of the mess that is in the can right now, or a couple of days ago, and then brushed the flattened clumps off of it, last evening I noticed that I actually had a very thin layer of the cement on the back of one of my fingers. That is telling me that the MEK is actually dissolving the cement, but apparently very slowly. I think I might fashion some kind of screw mixer that will fit down into the can and try forcefully mixing it a few times to see if the glue will all dissolve in the MEK.
Maybe something like this
Edward Tools Paint and Mud Mixer for drill in 1 to 5 gallon buckets - Fits all standard drills - Zinc plated steel - Reinforced weld - Hex head for non slip - Easy to clean - Paint mixer attachment https://a.co/d/bvId0VR
I called a friend that used to do custom vinyl roof and occasionally leather work on pimped out new cars and vans for dealers back in the day. I explained what you were trying to do with the Pasha Leather / cement and his answer was 3M Super 77 out of a spray can with a thin nylon multi directional stretch backing material.
His opinion was that the raw glue out of the can was likely to go on uneven in the best of hands and bleed through in places and dry unevenly.
He also opined that the spray cans now give excellent controllable patterns and with some practice you'll be in great shape putting thin backing cloth on your incredible leather works of art.
This might be worth a try. I did ask him if a non-stretch material would be more stable and he did not agree with my theory that stretch would be subject to higher shear force delamination.
You of course will keep experimenting until you find the best solution.
Thanks, Dave, for your input and your pointers. Your Guy's suggestion about the 77 Cement is a very bad one. That stuff is only good for up to 110 degrees so it is not at all suitable for automotive trim work. My friend Doug uses Weldwood Vinyl Top Cement and it finishes yellow rather than clear, and it is good for much higher temperatures. He buys it in 5 gallon buckets and uses an inexpensive HF Spray Gun to apply it. Your guy does not sound very experienced to me.
Too, I cannot figure out when and where in the weaving process your Guy would have me apply the cement he suggests, or any other for that matter. Most Contact Cements must be applied to both surfaces to be stuck together and then there is only a short window of time before it dries totally when it will stick. The only time any of the usual Contact Cements can be used in my weaving process would be after the dry leather strips are woven and then spray the back with the Cement and spray the fabric backing with Cement then stick them together. That in fact was my original plan; and also using some of Doug's Weldwood Cement. That would have some limited benefit in regard to stabilizing the weave, but would not stick any of the leather to the other leather. The surfaces between the leather strips in the weave would be totally free of any Cement.
What I have put together is, I think, the perfect solution. Some time ago I had read about Just Dashes and their process in which they were said to be using some kind of heat activated cement in their dash restorations. So, I did a search online and found some called Heat Activated Contact Cement. I bought a quart for $80 shipped. It says to spray both surfaces with the cement then let it dry then after assembly heat it to 140 degrees F and it will adhere the materials. Then it says after 24 hours it will have cured to a permanent bond. Since I cannot spray both surfaces of my leather for obvious reasons I sprayed a double coat on the back of the leather then cut the leather into the strips to be woven. I weaved it together with the raw side up and then put my little ironing board under it facing the fresh side of the leather then put my backing over the exposed Cement and Ironed it onto the leather with enough heat to penetrate the leather and activate both the cement between the back of the weave and the backing and the cement between the woven strips of leather. I now have a permanent bond of the whole three layers of material -- two of leather and one of the light backing.
My only limitation now is how to preserve the pint of the Cement that I did not need to spray in this first weave. I was expecting to use the last pint on the next weave, but found that it was setting up for some reason. I am trying now to dissolve it in some MEK so that I can either spray it or paint it with a brush onto the next four pieces of leather to be then cut into strips for the second weave. I have also ordered 6 more quarts of it for some further progress in this weaving project. I hope I don't end up throwing away half of it all in the process.
Thanks again Dave. I do appreciate your input and your efforts to try to help out.
Last edited by Jerry Feather; 03-22-2023 at 12:51 PM.
Jerry, Excellent that you have found the perfect solution! Heat activated sounds great for your application.
A question? Is your backing stretch or non-stretch? I disagreed with my friend that stretch was a good idea, (because it would be subjected to shear force and be more likely to de-laminate). Since you are doing this in the real world, what does your experience yield? Stretch? non-stretch?
As for Super 77 failing at 110 degrees? 3M says 190,
As always handle adhesives with care and use in a well ventilated space... Don't wantsda be gotten no Drain Brammage...
This is the best Hi-Temp spray adhesive I've found and what I use to bond under hood heat pads. Says 160 F but has worked even on my black cars where the sun gets them very hot. DEI is the company that makes firesleeve and ceramic turbo blankets so they know a thing or two about dealing with heat.
DAve, What I found online was the temp range for 77 was zero to 110.
As to the backing, what I found has no strete]ch longways, as it comes off the bolt, and a little sideways. I put it on the back of my weaves longways so I wouldn't have a seam on the back, for what little that might be worth. The leather that is all now bonded together there is still a tiny bit of stretch, but not enough to concern me.
As I tried to explain above, I am way past using any kind of ashesive that cannot be applied, left to dry, then cut into strips, then woven, then activated to bond the weave together.
I wonder if your adhesive "setting" in the half used tin is something like what happens to Moisture Cured Urethane adhesives and paint coatings. In that case moisture is the catalyst and once exposed to it the paint or adhesive starts curing and there is nothing you can do to stop it. (Similar to using catalyst with polyester resin - more catalyst you use the faster it goes off)
Your adhesive is even more special in that it "dries" once sprayed on and then is made to adhere by using heat - effectively two separate processes.
Maybe the MEK is only a solvent in the unset (straight out of a new unopened can) state but the MEK plays no further part. Time to try and contact the manufacturers to get more info. It certainly seems like the MEK is only a solvent in the out of the tin state and once evaporated off is not a solvent anymore.
Hi Jon. I think you are probably about exactly right about this Cement. The MEK seems to be holding off any further setting up, but it does not seem to be dissolving the tiny clumps that have set. I painted some of it on about a square foot of one of my next leather blanks and then found that the clumps that were then spread out pretty flat on the surfce; they could be wiped off simply with my hand. I now need to see just what is left in the area painted with it to see if there is enough cement to still do its job. If not I may paint it again to see if I can build up enough to work, even if I have to wipe off the flakes of set cement again. On the other hand if I might leave the clumps then flattened out on the leather and if when fully dry they will stay, I think they will still activate with heat and do the job. So it may be that I will get the full use out of what is left in the can and then deal with it all later somewhat differently in the new cans and the next leather to be woven.
Last edited by Jerry Feather; 03-25-2023 at 10:07 AM.
I checked the piece of leather where I had painted some of the failed Cement and find that with the lumps and flakes of cured cement that i had wiped off what remains has soaked into the leather so that there does not appear to be enough film of cement left to be heated and stick the the face of another piece of leather. I guess I'll have to try that with some scraps of leather to see for sure. Other than that I think I am stuck with waiting for the new order of several cans of the Cement.
In the meantime I am making a bit of progress with the latest Pasha pattern which I have designed within what I find is the Pasha Pattern Concept (PPC). It is intended to work with the 928 four-cushion seats rather than my redesign of 5 cushion seats, and have the cluster of small blocks in the center of one cushion and the large blocke in the center of the alternating cushions. I think it will be very difficult for just about anyone else to distinguish this pattern from the Porsche Pasha Pattern (PPP) which is pretty much an art form of its own since I find that it is pretty much outside ot the Concept, PPC. If my pattern were to get woven into fabric and put into a 928 I doubt that even a Concours Judge could tell the differece. Woven in leather, if I ever do, will be a different story of course.
Last edited by Jerry Feather; 03-26-2023 at 03:08 PM.
I guess I can't help myself, but I found it necessary to draw up another Pasha Pattern. This one is very much like the next previous one but with two differences. One difference is that the new pattern does not have the color shift that the previous one has and it does not have the reason for the first one and that is that with the pattern ending at the edge of the largest blocks, moving out from the center of the cluster of the smallest blocks, which are squares, which requires the next pattern block to both start with opposite colors and start with the same size blocks which puts two rows of large blocks the same size right in the middle of one of the 4 cushions.
So I changed the pattern some to have the outer edge of the overall pattern block, the pattern repeat as it were, end in the middle of the largest blocks rather than at the edge of the row of them. The patterns as inked in on paper are going to look very much alike, but they will have a quite different look on the 928 seats.
Last edited by Jerry Feather; 03-31-2023 at 08:32 PM.
03-20-2023, 03:01 PM
