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R12 Refrigerant Availability

 
Old 02-23-2019, 03:54 PM
  #31  
Marti
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There is a reason this stuff is banned. Do us all a favour and convert to R134a or newer, R12 is truly awful stuff.
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Old 02-23-2019, 04:00 PM
  #32  
SeanR
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Originally Posted by Marti View Post
There is a reason this stuff is banned. Do us all a favour and convert to R134a or newer, R12 is truly awful stuff.
Bullshi!t
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Old 02-23-2019, 04:55 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Marti View Post
R12 is truly awful stuff.
So are oil, gasoline, brake fluid, atf and coolant when miss handled. LOL
——-
I have had good luck finding cans of R12 locally on kijiji. Or from Roger.
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Old 02-23-2019, 05:16 PM
  #34  
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Still available and legal in Thailand. Bought this for US$75 a few months ago.
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Old 02-23-2019, 11:18 PM
  #35  
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^^^ This ^^^

Many countries that don't market cars into north america or the EU still produce and leak R12.

Anders -- can you find the country of origin for that can? Just curious.

I bought a cylinder in Tijuana at a parts warehouse a long time ago that had been produced on Louisiana in the US, carried a duPont bi-lingual label. I gave it away to a relative when we left SoCal, as I have no R12 cars left in the fleet.
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Old 02-24-2019, 04:38 AM
  #36  
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Actually, I really don't understand what the effective difference on the environment of R12 and R134a are. My non-expert understanding is that both are CFCs, so both are broken down by UV rays. The broken "out" chlorine atoms then in turn turn break the ozone down into O2 and chlorine monoxide. So in the end, who cares if people use R12 or R134a?

The real question for me is what do we do when R134a is no longer legal? It looks like things are heading this direction, aren't they? I think I will start stocking up on R134a now and make a killing when it is put on the list of bad chemicals. One of my 928s still has R12 in it, so I am thankful for any hints on how to get enough to fix the system next year.

PS: It does look like I will have to take the test to get the EPA technician certificate to touch and R12 system legally, which I have every intention of doing.
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Old 02-24-2019, 05:38 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Red Flash View Post
Actually, I really don't understand what the effective difference on the environment of R12 and R134a are. My non-expert understanding is that both are CFCs, so both are broken down by UV rays. The broken "out" chlorine atoms then in turn turn break the ozone down into O2 and chlorine monoxide. So in the end, who cares if people use R12 or R134a?

The real question for me is what do we do when R134a is no longer legal? It looks like things are heading this direction, aren't they? I think I will start stocking up on R134a now and make a killing when it is put on the list of bad chemicals. One of my 928s still has R12 in it, so I am thankful for any hints on how to get enough to fix the system next year.

PS: It does look like I will have to take the test to get the EPA technician certificate to touch and R12 system legally, which I have every intention of doing.
R12 is a chlorofluorocarbon [CFC- i.e. it has chlorine in it] whereas 134 is a hydrofluorocarbon [HFC]. According to the experts the R12 breaks down the Ozone layer whereas R134 does not- but both are greenhouse gases. Now as i understand the EPA are trying to get R134 banned. What brasses me off a bit is that R12 was legal over here way after it was allegedly banned in the USA where the "Global" drive to remove it seemingly came from- then overnight the local government environmental agency decided to ban R12 and now it cannot be found even under the counter as it were. I have tried very hard to seal my compressor but it seems I need a top up every year so I feel a bit better leaking R134 than I would leaking R12 for whatever that is worth.

All that being said the various types of refrigerants and other miscellaneous greenhouse gases account for about 3% of total emissions- fossil fuels account for about 75% to 80%. Compare France with other western European countries and their greenhouse emissions are about two thirds of the rest of western Europe but then their nuclear waste is going to glow in the dark for the rest of eternity- C'est la Vie!
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Old 02-24-2019, 06:30 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by dr bob View Post
^^^ This ^^^

Anders -- can you find the country of origin for that can? Just curious.
I'm not home but if I remember right It's say Made in USA Which surprised me as all manufacturing was supposed to be banned in western world since 90's.

Edit
Found a better picture of the bottle and it's made in Mexico

Last edited by SwedeInSiam; 02-24-2019 at 06:57 AM.
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Old 02-24-2019, 10:59 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by SeanR View Post
Bullshi!t
Not BS, science my friend.

There is a good reason it's ban but there is no accounting for stupidity in going on using it no matter the reasoning. Good thing for everyone that the removal of fresh supply of R12 eventually phases it out.

Last edited by Marti; 02-24-2019 at 01:05 PM.
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Old 02-24-2019, 11:01 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Adamant1971 View Post


So are oil, gasoline, brake fluid, atf and coolant when miss handled. LOL
——-
I have had good luck finding cans of R12 locally on kijiji. Or from Roger.
True, but these are not as damaging to the ozone and like R12 should be disposed of responsibility
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Old 02-24-2019, 11:26 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Marti View Post
Not BS, science my friend.

There is a good reason it's band but there is no accounting for stupidity in going on using it.
I'm driving a 40 year old car that gets somewhere between 10-12 mpg and doesn't have any cats, and my state doesn't even require emission or vehicle inspections. I'm pretty sure my use of R12 in the A/C system of that car and by the other 928 owners of similar vintage isn't going to cause Earth to catch fire.

Those of you making the move to electric cars can help compensate for my carbon footprint, until the groundwater gets contaminated by all the batteries and related acid that will have to go somewhere once all the electric cars need battery replacements every 5 or 10 years or so, at which time my R12 use won't seem so bad.

Anyway, with my 30 lb canister for personal use, it should last the life of my 928 which is the only car I have that uses it, even if the life of that car lasts through my son's life too.
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Old 02-24-2019, 12:31 PM
  #42  
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I have two 30 lb jugs of r12 at my shop from years ago.... I own a HVAC biz
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Old 02-24-2019, 01:26 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Petza914 View Post
I'm driving a 40 year old car that gets somewhere between 10-12 mpg and doesn't have any cats, and my state doesn't even require emission or vehicle inspections. I'm pretty sure my use of R12 in the A/C system of that car and by the other 928 owners of similar vintage isn't going to cause Earth to catch fire.

Those of you making the move to electric cars can help compensate for my carbon footprint, until the groundwater gets contaminated by all the batteries and related acid that will have to go somewhere once all the electric cars need battery replacements every 5 or 10 years or so, at which time my R12 use won't seem so bad.

Anyway, with my 30 lb canister for personal use, it should last the life of my 928 which is the only car I have that uses it, even if the life of that car lasts through my son's life too.
Where do you draw the line, it has to start somewhere. I mean I don't actually need a 5 litre car to drive around in but if I can do it slightly more responsibly for something the scientific community took swift action to ban then I will. Anyone trying to continue with R12 are in such a percentage that it can't be realistically be classed as a problem. A saying comes to mind which is "why take a dump on your own backyard"
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Old 02-24-2019, 02:31 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Marti View Post
Where do you draw the line, it has to start somewhere. I mean I don't actually need a 5 litre car to drive around in but if I can do it slightly more responsibly for something the scientific community took swift action to ban then I will. Anyone trying to continue with R12 are in such a percentage that it can't be realistically be classed as a problem. A saying comes to mind which is "why take a dump on your own backyard"
The big difference is the gas and oil you put in your car are consumables. The refrigerant is designed to be in a closed system and not released unless something breaks.

So yes, taking a stand against R12 while driving what some would consider a "gross polluter" is a bit hypocritical. R-12 was also used as a propellant which was automatically released into the atmosphere under such use. Some could argue this was the primary reason R12 was banned, not the use in automobiles but it was an all or nothing decision.

Meanwhile R134a is now under scrutiny and banned in some areas (probably here eventually) due to similar environmental concerns. Testing of replacements are not going well:
https://emercedesbenz.com/autos/merc...-be-dangerous/

R134a is so cheap to buy, parts stores keep it in stock to "top off" your leaking system. I'm actually shocked this is legal. More and more consumers constantly "top off" their A/C systems instead of getting them properly repaired.

Maybe we just need to suck it up and realize there is no perfect way to cool down our houses and interiors without something that is potentially dangerous, just have to pick your poison.

However........the conversion to R134a is well documented now, affordable, and makes the car easier to be serviced at local repair shops. Many indy shops don't even support R12 work anymore, not worth the hassle when converting to R134a is so easy.
Does it work as well? That's a matter of opinion.
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Old 02-24-2019, 02:43 PM
  #45  
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I'll stop using R-12 when China abides by the Montreal Protocol of 1980s-something.

https://www.globalsources.com/si/AS/...1120853041.htm

There are a thousand other suppliers in China. If anyone is doing it right, the US is at the top of the environment food chain. When the rest of the world catches up - call me.
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