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Festival of Speed at Cal Speedway /Auto Club Speedway April 20 2018 - 928s running?

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Old 05-09-2018, 04:59 PM
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The RPM limit of mark and Joes engine was below 7000rpm. i think it was 6800rpm, same as the GT redline.
the tach maybe off, but the redline is never off and doesnt need to be calibrated. we get perfectly synchronous results at the dyno which rely on a spark to determin RPM. you maybe off a couple hundred RPM on the gauage, but the redline limiter , doesnt lie.

Plus, we can see RPM vs sound as a pretty good gauge for RPM levels. i have a audio tuner device that shows tone... I watched my video of me driving joe's car, and the RPM mark was using was near the same You can compare his lap with the GT2/ST2 corvettes that run to 7000rpm and he was certainly lower than that.

So,
#1 no, the engine was not subjected to higher RPM during upshifts, but with a bobble on a misshift, it could have been momentarily higher, but i suspect when that happens, the near 8400rpm range would bend valves first, , but it certainly is a possibility
#2. ive never seen any car with a blown front tire, have the RPM go wild 'crazy". the front unloads, at the same time the driver is going to lift , almost instantly. the rear tire doesnt leave the ground... even if this was a cause, it is subtle. ive had a lifting rear wheel due to a broken swaybar, and as the wheel starts to spin, the throttle is reduced. pretty common and easy to respond to.
#3. although ive got a similar compression ratio engine, it is limited by mass flow , because of my intake, and down 150hp... However , I've only used 91 octane in my car for 375rwhp and 410rwt.
certainly if the gas was real old, that would be a problem. but i seemed to remember Mark adding quite a bit of gas before his outing. certainly detonation could be a possibility for a cause.

as far as the "builder" and design changes goes, naturally, I'm just looking what changed and at the coincidence of two engines that had a rod change. I understand that this was due to something that deemed to be a possible problem with different designed rods. since both of these engines had lasted many seasons before, and had much shortened life after the change, doesn't it seem reasonable to look at this design change? what was it. something that was significant? was it a minor change? it had to be significant enough to tear down two perfectly running engines and replace them with a new design. can you speak to that rod change or is it private. (i understand if it is)

we all talk about the possible issues of the 928 engine while racing and everyone has their theories. since this was a rod failure , was the rod the cause of the failure or could it be lubrication of the pistons that was limited, or changed by scrapers/ windage and/or baffles? is that a possibility? what about the oil quality or grade. he wasnt on the track more than 5 laps, running identical lap times as we both were only going about 90-95% so istill imagine the oil temp being in the 240F range could that be a problem for oil he was using?

I guess many of these answers we will never know or have to wait to see what the block looks like when it is removed.

either way, like i said, major bummer for all, mostly for Mark.



Originally Posted by GregBBRD View Post
There's no doubt that the components in these engines are lighter than previously used....all in an effort to reduce the stresses on the engine block. We had been seeing damage to both the main bearings and the housing bores.....as well as cracked blocks from the pounding of the mass of the rotating assembly.

RPM's are the real enemy in race engines, however there is some safety margin built into all the pieces.

Chevy's engineers were involved in building a road racing Chevy engine with a 3.750 stroke, several years ago. Even with ultra light pistons and titanium rods, they determined that the engine would not last past 7600 rpms.. They finally limited the engine to 7200 rpms, and had no problems. Remember....crazy light pistons with the best titanium rods available. 7200rpms maximum.

With a good steel rod and a heavy piston, that rpm limit is probably safe...but certainly not much higher.

Which brings up an entire set of additional questions that have to be considered. Here's a few:

1. How accurate is the stock tachometer in these two race cars? Sharktuning has shown that the stock tachs are terribly inaccurate. (It's very, very common to see stock tachs off by more than 10%...or more.)
​​​​​​When was the last time the tach was calibrated? Ever?

Is the engine being subjected, constantly, to 10% more RPM's than the tach reads? 5%? Does anyone know?

2. For that matter, what is the internal rev limiter set to? Mark's engine was set to 7600, I believe...certainly well into the "death zone".

2. Without a RPM record, who knows what the maximum rpm that the engine has been subjected to? Could there be a chronic track/driver issue on one of the downshifts? How about when the tire blew at high rpm on the banking? Certainly when a front tire blows, the opposite rear tire is unweighted and the RPMs can instantly go crazy.

3. What fuel was being used? Mark Anderson has always "mixed" race fuel with street fuel, to save a few dollars. A very tiny amount of detonation/pre-ingnition at 7,000 rpms will add a whole bunch of load to the connecting rods. This was a high compression race engine, designed to be run on race fuel....not the "false economy" of race fuel mixed with street fuel.

For that matter, this car has been sitting for quite a long time. What fuel was left in the tank? What was that fuel's octane after sitting?​ What fuel was "loaded" on top of this fuel? What percentage?


It's really easy to blame the engine builder for failures. Mark Anderson has ALWAYS blamed me for his engine failure...we barely talk or do business any longer, because of this failure. Additionally, neither Joseph or Mark has even informed me or talked to me about this failure! There's no doubt that I've been tossed under the bus, again, for something I did not do!

​​Nothing in my workmanship failed in Mark Anderson's engine. I used very high quality pieces...certainly some of the best components available.

And Carrillo's final analysis of Mark's connecting rod failure?

Rod failure most likely caused by exceeding the RPM limit or mild detonation at high rpm. Without RPM data or more pieces of the rod, impossible to determine. No changes in the design of the rod recommended.
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Old 05-09-2018, 05:07 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by mark kibort View Post
The RPM limit of mark and Joes engine was below 7000rpm. i think it was 6800rpm, same as the GT redline.
the tach maybe off, but the redline is never off and doesnt need to be calibrated. we get perfectly synchronous results at the dyno which rely on a spark to determin RPM. you maybe off a couple hundred RPM on the gauage, but the redline limiter , doesnt lie.

Plus, we can see RPM vs sound as a pretty good gauge for RPM levels. i have a audio tuner device that shows tone... I watched my video of me driving joe's car, and the RPM mark was using was near the same You can compare his lap with the GT2/ST2 corvettes that run to 7000rpm and he was certainly lower than that.

So,
#1 no, the engine was not subjected to higher RPM during upshifts, but with a bobble on a misshift, it could have been momentarily higher, but i suspect when that happens, the near 8400rpm range would bend valves first, , but it certainly is a possibility
#2. ive never seen any car with a blown front tire, have the RPM go wild 'crazy". the front unloads, at the same time the driver is going to lift , almost instantly. the rear tire doesnt leave the ground... even if this was a cause, it is subtle. ive had a lifting rear wheel due to a broken swaybar, and as the wheel starts to spin, the throttle is reduced. pretty common and easy to respond to.
#3. although ive got a similar compression ratio engine, it is limited by mass flow , because of my intake, and down 150hp... However , I've only used 91 octane in my car for 375rwhp and 410rwt.
certainly if the gas was real old, that would be a problem. but i seemed to remember Mark adding quite a bit of gas before his outing. certainly detonation could be a possibility for a cause.

as far as the "builder" and design changes goes, naturally, I'm just looking what changed and at the coincidence of two engines that had a rod change. I understand that this was due to something that deemed to be a possible problem with different designed rods. since both of these engines had lasted many seasons before, and had much shortened life after the change, doesn't it seem reasonable to look at this design change? what was it. something that was significant? was it a minor change? it had to be significant enough to tear down two perfectly running engines and replace them with a new design. can you speak to that rod change or is it private. (i understand if it is)

we all talk about the possible issues of the 928 engine while racing and everyone has their theories. since this was a rod failure , was the rod the cause of the failure or could it be lubrication of the pistons that was limited, or changed by scrapers/ windage and/or baffles? is that a possibility? what about the oil quality or grade. he wasnt on the track more than 5 laps, running identical lap times as we both were only going about 90-95% so istill imagine the oil temp being in the 240F range could that be a problem for oil he was using?

I guess many of these answers we will never know or have to wait to see what the block looks like when it is removed.

either way, like i said, major bummer for all, mostly for Mark.
I'm terribly interested how you have any personal factual information about where either Mark's or Joseph's rev limiter was set to.

Without a bunch of your dumb nonsensical "logic", please tell us how you would even remotely know this?
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Old 05-09-2018, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by GregBBRD View Post

Like I said....nothing in my workmanship failed in your engine....or most likely in Joseph's engine.

Although you clearly blame me (and have all along).....you show me anything wrong in my workmanship and I'll buy the damn engines.
I've never implied or even thought that the failures were due to your workmanship. There clearly is a reason that my previous engine lasted for nearly 5 years and these 2 were short lived. After 30 years of racing I do doubt I suddenly developed bad habits that contributed to this problem.
And for what its worth the old gas was drained before the event.
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Old 05-09-2018, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Anderson View Post
I've never implied or even thought that the failures were due to your workmanship. There clearly is a reason that my previous engine lasted for nearly 5 years and these 2 were short lived. After 30 years of racing I do doubt I suddenly developed bad habits that contributed to this problem.
And for what its worth the old gas was drained before the event.
Bull****....I've heard what you have to say, second hand.

Do we seriously want to get into how many engines you've personally blown up and how many transmissions you've destroyed (from improper downshifting) in those 30 years? Can you even remember how many? I certainly loose track at about 20.

Like I said, you show me what I did wrong and I'll buy both those engines!!!

.......And what fuel were you running at the track?
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Old 05-09-2018, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by GregBBRD View Post
Bull****....I've heard what you have to say, second hand.

Do we seriously want to get into how many engines you've personally blown up and how many transmissions you've destroyed (from improper downshifting) in those 30 years? Can you even remember how many? I certainly loose track at about 20.

Like I said, you show me what I did wrong and I'll buy both those engines!!!

.......And what fuel were you running at the track?
It's hard to hear you over the IRONY of you defending your motor that blew, when you came on this board and ROASTED Carl for months, stating that my engine was untested and was likely to suffer a failure.

How many times did you insinuate or imply my motor was going to grenade?

I read everything in this thread. NO ONE blamed you for Mark's recent failure. However, when I went to officer candidate school in the army, the first thing we learned is: AN OFFICER IS RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERYTHING HIS UNIT DOES OR FAILS TO DO. Day one!

If my motor explodes, I will absolutely blame Carl Fausett even though he cannot control things like gas, shifting, etc. And you know what Carl will do? Stand behind it. 'Cause that's what he does.
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Old 05-09-2018, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Catorce View Post
It's hard to hear you over the IRONY of you defending your motor that blew, when you came on this board and ROASTED Carl for months, stating that my engine was untested and was likely to suffer a failure.

How many times did you insinuate or imply my motor was going to grenade?

I read everything in this thread. NO ONE blamed you for Mark's recent failure. However, when I went to officer candidate school in the army, the first thing we learned is: AN OFFICER IS RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERYTHING HIS UNIT DOES OR FAILS TO DO. Day one!

If my motor explodes, I will absolutely blame Carl Fausett even though he cannot control things like gas, shifting, etc. And you know what Carl will do? Stand behind it. 'Cause that's what he does.
You've made it super evident that you have way more money than brains......

However, I could never begin to afford to buy a tiny percentage of the engines and transmission Mark Anderson has blown up.....I'd literally be homeless. And Carl would be, too.

You might want to talk to Carl about Mark, before your alligator mouth swallows your hummingbird ***.....Mark even blew up at least a couple of Carl's personal race engines.



You've got to be joking about Carl's warranty policy....people are rolling on the ground laughing at you.

"And you know what Carl will do? Stand behind it. 'Cause that's what he does"........This might be the funniest/most uniformed statement ever written on this Forum!!!!

You might want to do a quick study (you don't even have to search outside of this Forum) about Carl's warranty history and his return policies before you say much more....

'Cause that's not "what he does".
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Old 05-09-2018, 07:26 PM
  #67  
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This is turning into a real **** slinging contest.

I would suggest a third party analysis of the failed rod and the remaining 7 not failed rods. A competent materials lad could do it. I would suggest doing a hardness test, a chemistry analysis and either
X-Ray or ultra sonic testing to check for imperfections in the rods. Carrillo might have the ability to do all this in house but I would third party it just for piece of mind.

Does Carrillo make their own forgings? or do they have them third partied? The failed rod could have had a flaw who know's. I'd be magnafluxing the remaining rods at the very least.

Sean
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Old 05-09-2018, 07:34 PM
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Greg, The simple ANSWER to YOUR question, IS............. that I'VE RACED/DRIVEN THE DAMN CAR! Do you want to see the 2 hours of video and me hitting the rev limiter once or twice? you can clearly hear the tone and it was NOT over 6800rpm. I've matched the video audio with Marks and he is exactly the same frequency... and his shifts are the same frequency as my car, that has JUST came off the dyno. My dyno runs show redline (where the rev limiter cuts of ) being exactly at 6600rpm. (there is a print out you can see).
the tach might be off a little, but the redline rev limiter is not something that can vary. It is pulse/frequency controlled in software. it is very accurate.

You are reaching at straws now.

why cant you address the elephant in the room as the only real change being the rod design for the last two motors of mark and joe.

Sure things break.... could have been user error, but 10 years on the first motors , one dry sump and the other not, rules out oil control additions.... but suddenly mark forgets how to driver the car? and both joes and marks blow after only a few events? coincidence? could be...... but , its natural to want to find out why they failed. maybe the oils was too thin, and the piston just went dry and stopped in the bore..... a lot of possibilities

now, you say what i say above is " dumb , nonsensical Logic"?? really..... sounds pretty sound to me and to many others.

Nothing against you or your abilities greg, but its really about finding out what happened.


MK
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Originally Posted by GregBBRD View Post
I'm terribly interested how you have any personal factual information about where either Mark's or Joseph's rev limiter was set to.

Without a bunch of your dumb nonsensical "logic", please tell us how you would even remotely know this?
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Old 05-09-2018, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by GregBBRD View Post
1000's of shifts at 7000+rpms with a high compression race engine making over 500 rwhp?

How does your experience have anything to do with this failure?
so, 10s of 1000s shifts at 6600rpm vs 1000s of 6800rpm shifts, both high RPM, both high compression, but 125 less hp...... however, you yourself just said its the" RPM that is the culprit ", now its the HP too?
so my experience with a similarly built , same stroke displacement , compression and manufacturer components, lasts and is lasting over 108 hours and the ONLY difference is the power, and my experience has "nothing" to do with this failure? many more similarities than differences. scientifically that is, but not by feelings i would tend to understand.
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Old 05-09-2018, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by GregBBRD View Post
You've made it super evident that you have way more money than brains......
You say that like it's a bad thing....

Originally Posted by GregBBRD View Post

You might want to do a quick study (you don't even have to search outside of this Forum) about Carl's warranty history and his return policies before you say much more....

'Cause that's not "what he does".
Excellent deflection. Remember, YOU were the one who was harping about building engines for race conditions, and stating that my motor was built for "parade laps" and that it would not take the punishment of the race.

Did you or did you not build the motor in question? We all know may things are outside of the control of the engine builder - environmental conditions, gas, driver, etc. but you were the engine builder last time I checked.

You'd be all over Carl if the shoe was on the other foot.
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Old 05-09-2018, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Catorce View Post
You say that like it's a bad thing....



Excellent deflection. Remember, YOU were the one who was harping about building engines for race conditions, and stating that my motor was built for "parade laps" and that it would not take the punishment of the race.

Did you or did you not build the motor in question? We all know may things are outside of the control of the engine builder - environmental conditions, gas, driver, etc. but you were the engine builder last time I checked.

You'd be all over Carl if the shoe was on the other foot.
You are an incredibly "slow" person.....lots of concussions over the years?

Again....you are being quite funny/mis-informed.

You probably should do some research about Carl's "stroker" engine builds, before you have much to say....not a very "pretty" record (that was what was so funny, when you stated you were having an engine built by the "best".) There's more than just a couple of people that had engines that never ran....much less ran on the track.

There was one guy that was trying to sell the entire non-running engine on Ebay. (This might be a good thing for you to pick-up, as a spare....for your other non-running, non-tested engine, never going to be raced, 928.)



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Old 05-09-2018, 08:37 PM
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Hey Archimedes, if you're so smart, why are you still working for a living?

I like how this became about Carl all of a sudden. That's rich.
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Old 05-09-2018, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Catorce View Post
Hey Archimedes, if you're so smart, why are you still working for a living?

I like how this became about Carl all of a sudden. That's rich.
Not that it is any of your business, but I do what I do because I love it....not because I need to.

And......Captain Obvious....It seems like there is no limit to how "slow" you can be.......it is you that brought up Carl....not me.
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Old 05-09-2018, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by mark kibort View Post
Greg, The simple ANSWER to YOUR question, IS............. that I'VE RACED/DRIVEN THE DAMN CAR! Do you want to see the 2 hours of video and me hitting the rev limiter once or twice? you can clearly hear the tone and it was NOT over 6800rpm. I've matched the video audio with Marks and he is exactly the same frequency... and his shifts are the same frequency as my car, that has JUST came off the dyno. My dyno runs show redline (where the rev limiter cuts of ) being exactly at 6600rpm. (there is a print out you can see).
the tach might be off a little, but the redline rev limiter is not something that can vary. It is pulse/frequency controlled in software. it is very accurate.

You are reaching at straws now.

why cant you address the elephant in the room as the only real change being the rod design for the last two motors of mark and joe.

Sure things break.... could have been user error, but 10 years on the first motors , one dry sump and the other not, rules out oil control additions.... but suddenly mark forgets how to driver the car? and both joes and marks blow after only a few events? coincidence? could be...... but , its natural to want to find out why they failed. maybe the oils was too thin, and the piston just went dry and stopped in the bore..... a lot of possibilities

now, you say what i say above is " dumb , nonsensical Logic"?? really..... sounds pretty sound to me and to many others.

Nothing against you or your abilities greg, but its really about finding out what happened.


MK
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Mark:

This is just more of your armchair babble.

RPM's by sound makes you know that Joseph's rev limiter was 6800?

You can tell by listening the difference between 6800 rpms and 7200 rpms on another car? Different exhaust, an engine making 150 more horsepower than yours....and you just somehow know enough to make it fact?

Come on man....you've said some absurd things in the past, but this might be the worst, ever.
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Old 05-09-2018, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by GregBBRD View Post
Mark:

This is just more of your armchair babble.

RPM's by sound makes you know that Joseph's rev limiter was 6800?

You can tell by listening the difference between 6800 rpms and 7200 rpms on another car? Different exhaust, an engine making 150 more horsepower than yours....and you just somehow know enough to make it fact?

Come on man....you've said some absurd things in the past, but this might be the worst, ever.
I've been called a lot of thngs, but "armchair" was not one of them If you understood sound frequencies, you would understand that if i have a redline frequency, it is very easy by sound, what the RPM is (by the harmonics and/or frequencies), this would be possible at any rpm lower or higher than the known redline. so, you are saying you dont think Joe's Redline is at 6,800rpm? the rev limiter kicked in at 6,800, but you seem to think the TACH is off the same amount as the reline is higher? Talk about pulling something out of your hat!
hp will not change the natural frequencies .. btw. So, why did you add this to your assertion ?
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