worf928

I'm genuinely interested in the means to do an end-play check that quickly. I always loosen the pinch bolt to the flex plate, which means removing the lower bell housing cover, which means unbolting the exhaust, disconnecting the O2 sensor, etc. Maybe I could do that in 3 hours but not also get a PPI done.

SeanR

Colin, Greg and I are all about the same on hours. We've all talked about it in the past. Stan, on the other hand, 40 hours on a top end refresh and the other small stuff you mention? No fvcking way. That's how wrenches get bad names and seriously, that's just ripping people off.

This topic came up in some of our private chats yesterday and I'm glad that Colin started this thread so the pro's can comment.

TB/WP -10-12 depending on how dirty that stuff is and how deep you are going in.

Pan/mounts- 10 hours typically

HVAC Actuators - 6 on non airbag cars, 7 for airbags as there are differences that take longer on the later cars.

Top end refresh including cam covers, cam oil pins, water bridge, oil filler is 14-16 and more for cleaning out a powder coated intake. I usually add 3 hours on top of that.

Front engine harness- 3 hours unless I do it while doing a TB/WP job. IF it's clean it's a 1.5-2 hours total.

Now all of this is an estimate and if **** goes sideways like broken bolts or other odd things, the time most certainly will go up. I gave a discount on the last car because we were doing several big jobs at once so I was nice and knocked off a few hours because I felt like being nice. Frequent flier discount and all that. I have a tendency to rip myself off by not charging enough, but I can sleep at night.

Troubleshooting running conditions or electrical is a whole other ball game.

FredR

I take my hat off to you boys who work on these things for a living and charge a fair price for a fair days work. If I had to do this for a living I suspect I would be a very hungry impoverished human being!

The better thing about being a DIY home hack is that once one has worked out how to approach each job, once completed you probably do not have to do it again for at least 5 years! Fortunately all I have done to date has been fine and worked well.

Good to know what some of you chaps take to do a job- if nothing else its puts into perspective how inefficient I am- thanks for sharing!

worf928

And that's why these threads go sideways.

Everybody has a different idea about the number, identity, and extent of tasks that go into a specific named-X job on a specific 928. Job X on 928 #52 done by 'Joe' is unlikely to consist of the same exact tasks as Job X on 928 #39 by 'Bob.' Yet if 'Joe' bills more for X on #52 than 'Bob' billed for X on #39 then 'Joe's' a crook and is ripping off customers?

If you, Sean, did *exactly* the same tasks to the same outcome as Stan did in the "40 hour intake refresh" I very much expect that it would take you the same amount of time +/- 2 hours (5%.)

Last, there's actual time, billed time, and the labor rate.

If 'Bob' bills 8 hours for X @ 250/hr and Joe bills 12 hours @ 125/hr who's the crook?

linderpat

I'm with Dr Bob and Nate on this. Take what the pros do, and multiply by 5 and that's my time line

Mrmerlin

Sean I can understand your thoughts on how long certain repairs should take,
some mechanics take longer than others.

I look at it this way my reputation goes on the machine I have worked on,
so I want to make sure its as perfect as i can make it.

I know others may judge my results but, if your conscientious and thorough and pay attention to details your results should speak of your handiwork.

That said I suspect that our times will be pretty close if you were to perform all of the things that I listed, your usually going to swap in new fuel lines new ignition wires new cooling hoses new vent lines new throttle and flappy shaft bearings plus put all of the parts together so it can be fitted onto the engine.
So your intake refresh is not really some isolated part that you swap out and in.

Its a whole lot of other things as well.

Not to mention the cleanup involved after the powder coater does its work,
I chase every bolt hole prior to final cleaning of the freshly PCd parts so I dont have to mess with stuck bolts on the engine, this job alone takes a good amount of time, then the final washing sequence, I repeat 3 times.

For me when I am finished working on a machine, its ready for service and has been tested and it will generally look like it did when it left the factory.

Loose harnesses are secured, the correct hardware is in place,
securing clamps are positioned correctly, loose carpets have been reglued, loose fitting panels have been tightened, hood pads replaced, hood hinges, latches have been lubricated, windows have been cleaned exteriors have been washed and interiors vacuumed, so maybe in this respect I am more thorough and this does take more time I agree.

NOTE I dont charge for Pre Delivery car washes.


I am a perfectionist and when it comes to working on machines,
I tend to take more time, and this can cost more time=cash.

Now the upside for the customer is that most dont have issues after they leave,
as I hope to have caught them all before delivery.
They get to drive a great machine wherever they want.

Please note this remark in no way is meant to discredit anyone that works on machines for a living, as we all have out strong points and are competent , since people keep bringing us their cars.



Dave C for the flex plate check I leave the O2 sensor connected and dont remove the header pipes, I just remove 4 of the 6 bolts and loosen the other two and lower the pipes just enough to remove the rear bell bolts.

I work on a lift so doing this service is not too difficult though sometimes the header bolts are rusted and snap so the whole set gets replaced.

I also will remove and inspect and retorque the rear pinch bolt after verifying the shaft is centered, then fit the front bolt.

I dont perform any leak down tests just drive the car and listen to what its telling me then look at the hardware. and the other subsystems to verify operation.

Leakdown tests are more important on the air cooled engines as they can see wider operating variances thus they can be damaged easier,
the water cooled machines seem to be less susceptible to overheating issues and most engines I see exhibit smooth running/ idling conditions.

That being said I think we are fortunate to have craftsmen that are able to perform the required tasks to keep these terrific machines operating at peak performance and they are placed in convenient places around the country for owners that might not be savvy with a tool box to write a check and and then drive their car.

Lizard928

I'm afraid that I am with Sean on this one Worf. Sean, Greg, and I are doing the exact same items as what Stan has stated but we are doing it in less than half the time. A person who is doing this for a living should have the right tools, and products, to do the job in a respectable time period. If Greg, Sean, and myself are doing it in less than 20 hours with cleaning out the inside of the intake manifold after powder coating. Why should it take another person who does it for a living more than double that time to get the job done? I would say that there is a need to improve how you are doing things. I will say that I charge $75usd/hr, while Sean and Stan are both at $100 iirc and I have no idea what Greg charges.

And this is the very purpose of this thread was so that those who are paying others to do the work on their car can get a rough idea (based on optimal scenarios), as to what they should be expecting. I know that both Sean and myself end up shaving the odd hour or two off the bill if it is a large job. I also know that Sean and myself won't normally charge for the time it takes us to figure out a strange problem, as both of us feel that people are bringing their vehicles to us as we are experts and we are not getting paid to learn on their car. That said, I have only had 2 cars where I have not been able to figure out the problem right away. :P

Lizard928

I will note Stan that every intake that is powder coated has to have the threads chased.
If you are using a proper chase you can put the bit into a cordless drill on a low power setting and bang it in and out very quickly. Best to blast out each hole before and between reaming as well. As Greg and Sean have said, this is 3-4 hours to do this and fully clean the intake after powder coating to ensure it is ready.

Also, all of us have to put our name on our work.

worf928

An intake refresh is not a single task. It's a task list. The 'intake refresh task list' will never be the same for every 928.

Taking a single task list (i.e. intake refresh) and generalizing to all other task lists for all 928s and then calling anyone who provides any data point in excess of someone else's a crook is not the way to have a productive and informative discussion.

In other words, you think you know what Stan means by an 'intake refresh', but you don't. Even with Stan's response I suspect you don't because I bet Stan did it from memory and missed some things.

Furthermore, I don't know what you and Sean include in your 'standard' task list for an intake refresh.

And how is this thread helping anyone to improve?

Why not ask questions about why 'Bob' or 'Joe' take more or less time than you do to do 'Job X'?

It's called the Socratic Method: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method

For an example, see what I asked Stan and how he responded. I learned something that I'm going to try next time.

I do the same thing. On some tasks in a task list I will cut my rate. For example, I don't charge anywhere near full rate for cleaning since I have to do everything more-or-less by hand (at the moment.)

If I do a specific task and realize that I was too slow or distracted or had to do it over or figured-out a better way I will bill only the correct time.

I don't charge to learn or research tasks. Also, if at the end of a diagnosis I realize that I did the diagnosis with false assumptions or bad knowledge and therefore took too much time, I will zero-out or very-heavily discount the billed time.

My word-of-mouth business was, essentially, built on people, suppliers, and a few dealers bringing me problems that no one else could figure out. I do charge to figure out strange problems. If it turns out that with more 928-specific knowledge or better methods, I could have figured out the problem more quickly then I will discount the labor. However, most of the time, the solutions to the strange problems are not expedited by more knowledge or better techniques. Most of the time, the strange problems are due to the previous technician.

I have a method and procedure for Strange Problems that keeps my clients informed, engaged and limits their liability at each stage.

And how is this thread helping so far?

As I wrote in my first post, a bunch of numbers from different techs without context is almost meaningless.

Furthermore, what percentage of 928s you work on are optimal scenarios?

I have worked on ONE 928, out of multiple dozens, that was an optimal scenario. This GTS was previously serviced by Greg. I've been servicing it now for 10 years. It was, and remains, the single 928 I've ever worked on where the previous timing belt was perfectly done (outside of the few 'first belt since the factory' jobs I've done) with not even trivial evidence to the contrary.

The optimal scenario is a unicorn. Quoting times for it is disinformation. Quoting a range of times depending upon the extent of the necessary and optional add-on WYAT tasks is far more informative.

At that point further understanding can be gained by reviewing task lists and times for atomic or near-atomic tasks.

A large variance in an atomic task is a learning opportunity.

If you want to have an informative discussion seek knowledge, context, and understanding by asking questions and answering questions from others.

If you just want to generate drama then compare apples and oranges as a means to impugn the skills or work ethic of those who deal in oranges instead of apples.

Mrmerlin

Colin and Sean, I am not sure exactly how to compare the term intake refresh to what your expectations are VS mine or anyone elses.
If you guys are going to talk off line then please include me in your discussions.

I will bet the time spent hands on are a lot closer than you think we are Colin.
Especially if we compare apples to apples.

I also use a chasing tool in an electric drill to reduce the time spent chasing the holes.

Fogey1

This ...

Fogey1

"Able to be licked" is a variable. I'm sure there are those on here that have at least their red wings.

Fogey1

That's generally the point at which I slap my forehead and go change back into work clothes to fix the mistake I made. Of course, if I'm unlucky I find that mistake(s) twenty miles away.

GregBBRD

Hmmm....

How about "If it isn't as clean as it was the day it left the factory, it's not going back on."

GregBBRD

it is, indeed, very rare for me to have a 928 come into my shop that is anywhere near the "perfect scenario". The big rub.....I try to make everything that leaves my shop the "perfect scenario". It'a what I'm about. It's what I do.

At this point in time, most of the cars are so butchered that "normal jobs" can take 2-3 times as long as planned. Some of these cars I do call the owners and tell them there is going to be an extra charge for fixing all the "hatchet marks", however, most times I'll just plow through and charge my "regular price". My guys will rarely even come and tell me about all the little problems they run into....I expect them to just take care of it. It has to be really really terrible for me to call a client.

And none of my guys (including me) have a "time limit" on a job.....I don't really even pay attention, unless they have been working on something for hours and hours longer than I planned.

Even on "perfect scenario" cars, we rarely can do the jobs in anywhere near the hours billed, these days....there's generally too much "collateral damage" that is in the proximity of the intended job, for this to happen.

My rule of thumb for my entire shop...."If you touched it during a repair, or even wiggled it....we are then responsible for it! Fix it!"

At the end of a year, when I go back and look at how many hours I've paid my people, versus how many hours I've charged for, the result is never 50%. I'd be thrilled (and way better off financially) if this was the case!

In my head, certain jobs "should take" a certain amount of time....and that is what I charge for the job. A couple broken off water pump bolts? No big deal....I don't want to even take the time to hear about it. Fix it. Fix it as perfectly as humanly possible. Cut no corners.

My clients are welcome to drop by, even on a regular basis, with this or that little issue. I'll always stop what I'm doing, and go out and look at their car.....and if I can't I'll have the appropriate person, here, go out and see what is wrong. I'll even take a car off the lift and put their car up, if I need to look at something under the car. It's extremely rare for me to make out a bill for this....we have to spend over an half an hour or more, before I'll even have Mary hand them an invoice to fill out.

Even on my invoices, many tasks do not get a labor charge....I don't think anyone has ever paid to change a bulb, change hood shocks, install the missing tie wrap on the radiator hose, lube door stops, tighten hose clamps, pull the air filter and look at the heater control valve and short water hose, etc. There are dozens and dozens of things that "automatically" get done, some of which are never even written down.

BTW.....In an effort to keep things "apples and apples".....not "apples and oranges", when I stated a price for the intake refresh, that did not include the valve cover refresh, with end cap replacement, and replacement of the oil galley plugs. That's a completely different animal, with its own set of pitfalls.

20 hours for intake refresh and valve cover refresh?

There's no one, here, that can do that!