Chevy LT-1 in 944
11-19-2003, 01:38 PM
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Chevy LT-1 in 944
After toasting the engine in my early '85 944, I've begun the process of dropping in a Chev FI aluminum heads 300+ hp LT-1 V-8.
If you would like more info to ascertain whether that was a good decision (which I don't know yet either), I will post considerations, steps, costs, etc. as we go.
Please respond to this post if you want to witness the tale as it unfolds.
It may be a love story; it may be a horror flick.
Let me know if you are interested.
Canuck
If you would like more info to ascertain whether that was a good decision (which I don't know yet either), I will post considerations, steps, costs, etc. as we go.
Please respond to this post if you want to witness the tale as it unfolds.
It may be a love story; it may be a horror flick.
Let me know if you are interested.
Canuck
11-19-2003, 01:47 PM
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I'm interested. I have been thinking of doing the exact same thing. Have you purchased all the parts? If so how much did it cost. Last time I check I figuered it would be around $7,000 for parts including engine.
11-19-2003, 02:19 PM
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O.K., here is first report.
Only firm making a full time business of swap kits to put a Chev in a 944 appears to be Renegade-Hybrid of Las Vegas. They have been at it since '81 and have been very helpful so far.
Change of weight balance front/rear is less than 2%, IF you use the LT-1 engine with the aluminum heads (NOT the cast iron ones).
Proper base engine is the 94-96 Camaro LT-1. The Truck, Monte Carlo, Firebird, other LT-1s will not easily work because of serpentine drive, cast iron heads, etc.
If you use an earlier carburetted LT-1, you'll have to replace the 944 hood. With the 94-96 Camaro, you'll have Fuel Injection and, with the proper kit, it is almost a straight drop-in
First rule of thumb is, if you do not plan to do all the labour yourself, estimate cost at 2X (double) whatever anyone tells you. I was originally told by the Porsche garage I use in Eugene, Oregon, that it could be done for less than $5,000. Wrong. Transplant takes 40-60 hours of labour. At normal shop rate of say, minimally, $50 per hour, 50 hours would be $2,500.
Kit costs approx $3,650 plus freight. Donor used engines run from $1,500 complete with harness, chip, water pump, FI, all the other stuff you need to make one actually run in the car. Rebuilt, they start at about $3,700 and redone to duplicate feel of super-powerful Porsche (low low-end torque, high revving), with 385 horses, run clear up to over $6,000.
If you don't have much cash around, best way is probably to go with a "guaranteed" sound un-rebuilt stocker. You can always rebuild a Chevy engine later, to whatever degree you determine is necessary. Any sound stocker should give you at least 275 horses.
More later...
Canuck
Only firm making a full time business of swap kits to put a Chev in a 944 appears to be Renegade-Hybrid of Las Vegas. They have been at it since '81 and have been very helpful so far.
Change of weight balance front/rear is less than 2%, IF you use the LT-1 engine with the aluminum heads (NOT the cast iron ones).
Proper base engine is the 94-96 Camaro LT-1. The Truck, Monte Carlo, Firebird, other LT-1s will not easily work because of serpentine drive, cast iron heads, etc.
If you use an earlier carburetted LT-1, you'll have to replace the 944 hood. With the 94-96 Camaro, you'll have Fuel Injection and, with the proper kit, it is almost a straight drop-in
First rule of thumb is, if you do not plan to do all the labour yourself, estimate cost at 2X (double) whatever anyone tells you. I was originally told by the Porsche garage I use in Eugene, Oregon, that it could be done for less than $5,000. Wrong. Transplant takes 40-60 hours of labour. At normal shop rate of say, minimally, $50 per hour, 50 hours would be $2,500.
Kit costs approx $3,650 plus freight. Donor used engines run from $1,500 complete with harness, chip, water pump, FI, all the other stuff you need to make one actually run in the car. Rebuilt, they start at about $3,700 and redone to duplicate feel of super-powerful Porsche (low low-end torque, high revving), with 385 horses, run clear up to over $6,000.
If you don't have much cash around, best way is probably to go with a "guaranteed" sound un-rebuilt stocker. You can always rebuild a Chevy engine later, to whatever degree you determine is necessary. Any sound stocker should give you at least 275 horses.
More later...
Canuck
11-19-2003, 02:28 PM
#7
Drifting
I've seen it done well, and it looks pretty good. I've also seen it done very poorly, and it looks like crap.
If you can get over the whole bastardized car thing, I think it could make for a nice car. Just make sure to do it well, I don't want to see any duct tape in there
. Only real possible flaw I see is the transmission. You'll want to make sure you have one with the right gear ratios, and how much torque will our tranny's take before they blow up?
People always cite the weight issue as well...but as said before, it's not THAT much, and if you go with fiberglass fenders/bumper/hood you can probably save it all back (but keep the stock look! I don't want to see any blowers poping out of the hood!).
I wouldn't worry about the bastardized car thing though. Heck how many manufactuers out there have done this on their own? How many Maseratti's came with Ferrari motors? A lotus with a Toyota Motor? A 924 with a VW/Audi Motor?!?.
If you can get over the whole bastardized car thing, I think it could make for a nice car. Just make sure to do it well, I don't want to see any duct tape in there
. Only real possible flaw I see is the transmission. You'll want to make sure you have one with the right gear ratios, and how much torque will our tranny's take before they blow up?People always cite the weight issue as well...but as said before, it's not THAT much, and if you go with fiberglass fenders/bumper/hood you can probably save it all back (but keep the stock look! I don't want to see any blowers poping out of the hood!).
I wouldn't worry about the bastardized car thing though. Heck how many manufactuers out there have done this on their own? How many Maseratti's came with Ferrari motors? A lotus with a Toyota Motor? A 924 with a VW/Audi Motor?!?.
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11-19-2003, 02:30 PM
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Don't forget the cost of upgrading your brakes, suspension, and transmission to be able to handle the extra power.
I hate to say it but, you would be better off starting with a 951 shell if your hellbent on a GM motor. Then the chassis and everything else is ready to handle the extra power of a V8. You'll rip a NA chassis to shreds with that much low end torque.
I hate to say it but, you would be better off starting with a 951 shell if your hellbent on a GM motor. Then the chassis and everything else is ready to handle the extra power of a V8. You'll rip a NA chassis to shreds with that much low end torque.
11-19-2003, 02:38 PM
#9
LT-1 is the same in the Camaro and Firebird. It was never used in the other cars mentioned. The truck is a standard iron block/heads 350. Monte Carlo NEVER came with an LT-1. The proper drop it would be an LT-1 from a Corvette. It had marginally more HP from reworked heads (and exhaust). A bowtie crate LT-1 longblock can be had for about 4400 dollars (IIRC). You are correct about the Aluminum 350 being about the same weight. It is a doable swap. You have not set aside enough money (BTW for 6K I can build you a motor will a hell of a lot more HP than 385) I have done this swap on a few cars (Volvo 240 Wagon, RX-7s 3 of them, and an older Jag). From experience I can tell you that you will go well over 10K if you do it right. You will snap driveline parts left and right unless you upgrade to Turbo trans and have custom made halfshafts. For reference the LT-1 from the Camaro was 285HP, Corvette was 305 (330HP on the 96 LT-4). Good luck, I am interested to see how it turns out.
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11-19-2003, 02:45 PM
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In this transplant, I am acting only as the financier and general contractor. I am doing NONE of the work myself. (Heck, guys, I'm almost 70 years old. I can squirm around on the garage floor okay, but getting UP again is really tough.)
The actual drop in is being done by CarCepts of Amity, Oregon. (www.CarCepts.com) Neither of us has ever done one of these before. They usually build turnkey AC Cobra replicas. They HAVE stuck LT-1's in Mazda RX-7's, Ford V-8s in Volvos, and that sort of thing. One nice thing is, they have their own car transporter and will come get your car, dead or alive, as far away as Seattle....maybe farther. Anyway, we struck a fixed labour price deal...$2,500.
No matter who's kit you get (or if you make your own) it likely will pay to get "coated" headers. Coated means they have a ceramic coating inside and out, which supposedly reduces inside the engine compartment heat by about 40%.
Also, you'll need to make a decision about brakes. Installing a LT-1 or similar engine means you WILL lose the factory power brake assist assembly. There just isn't room for it where it sits in the stock 944. The answer is to either go with manual brakes (I don't recommend this), or to build a remote assembly and master cylinder. That is simple, and is what we are doing.
If you drive moderately, and never at the track, the standard trans-axle, torque tube, etc., will bolt right up to the kit, and will be plenty strong. The kit provides a new Chev 10-1/2" clutch. If you want to get on it hard off the line, then you need to swap-in a 944 turbo transaxle and torque tube. They will bolt right in, and the gear ratios are more appropriate to the added power of the Chev engine.
The actual drop in is being done by CarCepts of Amity, Oregon. (www.CarCepts.com) Neither of us has ever done one of these before. They usually build turnkey AC Cobra replicas. They HAVE stuck LT-1's in Mazda RX-7's, Ford V-8s in Volvos, and that sort of thing. One nice thing is, they have their own car transporter and will come get your car, dead or alive, as far away as Seattle....maybe farther. Anyway, we struck a fixed labour price deal...$2,500.
No matter who's kit you get (or if you make your own) it likely will pay to get "coated" headers. Coated means they have a ceramic coating inside and out, which supposedly reduces inside the engine compartment heat by about 40%.
Also, you'll need to make a decision about brakes. Installing a LT-1 or similar engine means you WILL lose the factory power brake assist assembly. There just isn't room for it where it sits in the stock 944. The answer is to either go with manual brakes (I don't recommend this), or to build a remote assembly and master cylinder. That is simple, and is what we are doing.
If you drive moderately, and never at the track, the standard trans-axle, torque tube, etc., will bolt right up to the kit, and will be plenty strong. The kit provides a new Chev 10-1/2" clutch. If you want to get on it hard off the line, then you need to swap-in a 944 turbo transaxle and torque tube. They will bolt right in, and the gear ratios are more appropriate to the added power of the Chev engine.
Last edited by Canuck; 11-19-2003 at 04:12 PM.
11-19-2003, 02:54 PM
#11
Just a few observations..
1) I would recommend a Tilton dual master setup, it is small and well made, on the downside it will cost you plenty.
2) You are wrong about the stock parts. The trans will not hold up long with the torque that motor will make (if you are going to be that ginger why build it in the first place). The Turbo trans is stronger. The weakest link will be the half-shalfts. Linsey sells upgraded ones and a wise man would get a set. Its a matter of time before one breaks.
3) You got a great labor deal. They have NO clue what they are in for. I guarantee they wont do one again for that little. The RX and Volvo are far easier transplants. A 302 can be done in a Miata in about 10 hours. That is like comparing apples to planets.
Just for clarification, you will have spent money on the following:
CAR - it just happened to break
Hybrid conversion -3700
Engine - ??
Brake Upgrade - ??
How much are you planning for the entire project?
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1) I would recommend a Tilton dual master setup, it is small and well made, on the downside it will cost you plenty.
2) You are wrong about the stock parts. The trans will not hold up long with the torque that motor will make (if you are going to be that ginger why build it in the first place). The Turbo trans is stronger. The weakest link will be the half-shalfts. Linsey sells upgraded ones and a wise man would get a set. Its a matter of time before one breaks.
3) You got a great labor deal. They have NO clue what they are in for. I guarantee they wont do one again for that little. The RX and Volvo are far easier transplants. A 302 can be done in a Miata in about 10 hours. That is like comparing apples to planets.
Just for clarification, you will have spent money on the following:
CAR - it just happened to break
Hybrid conversion -3700
Engine - ??
Brake Upgrade - ??
How much are you planning for the entire project?
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11-19-2003, 03:04 PM
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Actually, in my opinion, the Corvette engine is NOT the right engine to use.
The LS-1 is too big dimensionally to fit easily, and the LT-1 'Vette engine serpentine requires a lot of re-working to fit. The object is to put in an engine that will run reliably, have added horses, be easy for anyone with a wrench to work on, and be a pretty easy drop-in. The 'Vette engine does meet all of those except the last.
As to using a 951 for the transplant, I already HAVE the 944 and it is a real Cherry except for the toasted engine. It owes me nothing. The cheapest course would be just to throw it away, and go buy another complete 944. I don't intend to do that. This car has given me a lot of good years.
My principle use will be long distance touring. My real hobby is competitive rifle shooting, where I have won a couple of U.S. national
championships, so I sometimes drive up to 2,500 miles to matches. I have not driven competitively in drag races since a youngster (over 50 years ago) and am not a street racer. So, with proper technique, doubt I will be torquing the car apart any time soon. (One of the things you learn in drag racing is how to put the power to the street without tearing up the equipment.)
Won't argue over what models the LT-1 was put in. But, before you buy a used engine from any model over the phone, make sure you check to be sure it has aluminum heads and FI, and that you can do a leak-down test before accepting it as a final purchase. You still may find it is a dog, depending on miles and conditions of servitude, even if it passes the leak down, but the odds are better if you can at least do that.
To be continued
Canuck
The LS-1 is too big dimensionally to fit easily, and the LT-1 'Vette engine serpentine requires a lot of re-working to fit. The object is to put in an engine that will run reliably, have added horses, be easy for anyone with a wrench to work on, and be a pretty easy drop-in. The 'Vette engine does meet all of those except the last.
As to using a 951 for the transplant, I already HAVE the 944 and it is a real Cherry except for the toasted engine. It owes me nothing. The cheapest course would be just to throw it away, and go buy another complete 944. I don't intend to do that. This car has given me a lot of good years.
My principle use will be long distance touring. My real hobby is competitive rifle shooting, where I have won a couple of U.S. national
championships, so I sometimes drive up to 2,500 miles to matches. I have not driven competitively in drag races since a youngster (over 50 years ago) and am not a street racer. So, with proper technique, doubt I will be torquing the car apart any time soon. (One of the things you learn in drag racing is how to put the power to the street without tearing up the equipment.)
Won't argue over what models the LT-1 was put in. But, before you buy a used engine from any model over the phone, make sure you check to be sure it has aluminum heads and FI, and that you can do a leak-down test before accepting it as a final purchase. You still may find it is a dog, depending on miles and conditions of servitude, even if it passes the leak down, but the odds are better if you can at least do that.
To be continued
Canuck
11-19-2003, 03:15 PM
#13
Canuck - I agree that the LS-1 is too big. The LT-1 vette motor is the same as the Lt-1 camaro motor except for the heads. The Camaro motor would be easier to source and probably a little cheaper to purchase.
Regardless of the use of said automobile you will break parts running that much torque. If you are going to use it for transport only and NEVER get on it then why not buy a 944 motor and replace what you have. It would be FAR less money (hell it could die again 2 more times) and for traveling there is nothing wrong with the 944 engine (it just lacks *****). I am not trying to discourage you, just wondering why.
Nothing to argue about, Chevrolet labeled virtually every 350 for 40 years LT-1, from trucks to roadmasters, just about everything. However, what you are looking for is an LT-1 from a F-body.
I guess this is what I dont get. You seem to be willing to spend the money for such a project but then you are going to skimp and buy a used motor?? Having had a Z-28 and hung out with that crowd, I dont care what the compression ratio, everyone of those engines is likely to have been heavily abused.
I really would like to see a breakdown. I am sure others would love to know what your projected total is.
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Regardless of the use of said automobile you will break parts running that much torque. If you are going to use it for transport only and NEVER get on it then why not buy a 944 motor and replace what you have. It would be FAR less money (hell it could die again 2 more times) and for traveling there is nothing wrong with the 944 engine (it just lacks *****). I am not trying to discourage you, just wondering why.
Nothing to argue about, Chevrolet labeled virtually every 350 for 40 years LT-1, from trucks to roadmasters, just about everything. However, what you are looking for is an LT-1 from a F-body.
I guess this is what I dont get. You seem to be willing to spend the money for such a project but then you are going to skimp and buy a used motor?? Having had a Z-28 and hung out with that crowd, I dont care what the compression ratio, everyone of those engines is likely to have been heavily abused.
I really would like to see a breakdown. I am sure others would love to know what your projected total is.
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11-19-2003, 03:39 PM
#14
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Originally posted by Canuck
If you drive moderately, and never at the track, the standard trans-axle, torque tube, etc., will bolt right up to the kit, and will be plenty strong
If you drive moderately, and never at the track, the standard trans-axle, torque tube, etc., will bolt right up to the kit, and will be plenty strong
You guys want a V8 that bad? If willing to spend $$$ get the Shark otherwise buy a cheep mullet(camaro?) 
11-19-2003, 03:40 PM
#15
Nordschleife Master
$2,500, eh? What happens if they run over due to some unexpected events.
I'd discuss what happens in that case. Otherwise, they might start cutting corners if they're in way over their estimate.
I'd discuss what happens in that case. Otherwise, they might start cutting corners if they're in way over their estimate.