Chevy LT-1 in 944
11-19-2003, 10:33 PM
#46
The NA tranny was sourced from Audi. Further, you build a car to its potential...944NA is not going to be really quick. The 951 however, was detuned (couldnt be faster than 911), and the factory had seen massive power from them.
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11-19-2003, 10:57 PM
#47
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Matt is pretty much dead on.
This subject jumps up all around the net and simply put, if you are not willing to part with $10K to $12K for a proper job, you are just flushing money down the toilet.
This has been discussed with my mechanic in passing and he has said the following:
Basically everything Matt has said plus, a possible loss of A/C due to the difficulty in retrofitting. He also added that it is not the extra weight of the Chevy motor that will affect the handling it's the center of gravity of the new motor that is the biggest issue. The weight is now carried farther forward. His advice was to sell the 944N/A and build a 951S up. There was a lot of wiggle room left with that particular car.
Also, he added and I wholeheartedly agree with, Chevy is not exactly known for quality, it may be cheap, but is it worth it?
This has been discussed with my mechanic in passing and he has said the following:
Basically everything Matt has said plus, a possible loss of A/C due to the difficulty in retrofitting. He also added that it is not the extra weight of the Chevy motor that will affect the handling it's the center of gravity of the new motor that is the biggest issue. The weight is now carried farther forward. His advice was to sell the 944N/A and build a 951S up. There was a lot of wiggle room left with that particular car.
Also, he added and I wholeheartedly agree with, Chevy is not exactly known for quality, it may be cheap, but is it worth it?
11-19-2003, 11:06 PM
#49
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Matt H
[B]I wish this thing would quote easier so it could be read more easily. I am reading the above going hey, didnt I say that too :>)
12K for a homemade car is no bargain. Just my opinion, of course.
I'd hate to hear what you'd have to say about a 50k street rod. Bargain or not, it's not about the money, it's a hobby and I do it for self-satisfaction and fun.
I am afraid I dont see custom building a car to convert to manual brakes. Do it right or not at all. If you think about it, you are kind of building a 1970 Chevelle with a pretty body. The reason they say it is an advantage is because there is no good way to put it. I.e. tell the customer they are going to 1960 technology and they are going to have a rock hard brake pedal....I think not. It is all in the sale of the parts.
I have a garage full of trophies from several shows including back-to-back Super Chevy wins. I have a pretty good idea of what I'm doing (regardless of what you say) and I can tell by your emotionally charged rantings that you are more of a 944 cultist of some type than just a plain enthusiast. It's just a bunch of metal for chrissakes.
I understand that this is not about speed, if it were you guys would be using new crate motors or better still LG383's. You could make a monster. Here is where I have a problem, if you are above burnouts, etc, then why do it in the first place? If you are a Master Tech (L1) then you should be able to wrench on a plain jane 4 just as well as a 350. It doesnt sound like you plan on making mods to it, doesnt take a master tech to do this swap (lord knows I am not one and have completed my fair share of swaps). I would rather have seen it hacked into a race car, at least then it would have been able to live a noble death, this way is kinda like making a Male Rottweiler wear a pink tutu. Are you sure you dont want to sell me the shell, I can find something to do with it.
The jokes on you, I'm afraid. I'm not an L1, and never said I was.
I DO plan on taking mine on track and thus the 500 dollar shocks (which BTW, is not that expensive). Even still you are going to use (I guess) stock replacement struts and shocks, which should come to right at your 500 dollars.
The two front strut cartridges were 308.00. I hope Koni adjustables meet with your approval.
No more to say about your warped view on the conversion. If someone wants to talk the nuts-and-bolts of it, that's fine.
Doug
[B]I wish this thing would quote easier so it could be read more easily. I am reading the above going hey, didnt I say that too :>)
12K for a homemade car is no bargain. Just my opinion, of course.
I'd hate to hear what you'd have to say about a 50k street rod. Bargain or not, it's not about the money, it's a hobby and I do it for self-satisfaction and fun.
I am afraid I dont see custom building a car to convert to manual brakes. Do it right or not at all. If you think about it, you are kind of building a 1970 Chevelle with a pretty body. The reason they say it is an advantage is because there is no good way to put it. I.e. tell the customer they are going to 1960 technology and they are going to have a rock hard brake pedal....I think not. It is all in the sale of the parts.
I have a garage full of trophies from several shows including back-to-back Super Chevy wins. I have a pretty good idea of what I'm doing (regardless of what you say) and I can tell by your emotionally charged rantings that you are more of a 944 cultist of some type than just a plain enthusiast. It's just a bunch of metal for chrissakes.
I understand that this is not about speed, if it were you guys would be using new crate motors or better still LG383's. You could make a monster. Here is where I have a problem, if you are above burnouts, etc, then why do it in the first place? If you are a Master Tech (L1) then you should be able to wrench on a plain jane 4 just as well as a 350. It doesnt sound like you plan on making mods to it, doesnt take a master tech to do this swap (lord knows I am not one and have completed my fair share of swaps). I would rather have seen it hacked into a race car, at least then it would have been able to live a noble death, this way is kinda like making a Male Rottweiler wear a pink tutu. Are you sure you dont want to sell me the shell, I can find something to do with it.
The jokes on you, I'm afraid. I'm not an L1, and never said I was.
I DO plan on taking mine on track and thus the 500 dollar shocks (which BTW, is not that expensive). Even still you are going to use (I guess) stock replacement struts and shocks, which should come to right at your 500 dollars.
The two front strut cartridges were 308.00. I hope Koni adjustables meet with your approval.
No more to say about your warped view on the conversion. If someone wants to talk the nuts-and-bolts of it, that's fine.
Doug
11-19-2003, 11:09 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Matt H
I wish this thing would quote easier so it could be read more easily. I am reading the above going hey, didnt I say that too :>)
12K for a homemade car is no bargain. Just my opinion, of course.
I'd hate to hear what you'd have to say about a 50k street rod. Bargain or not, it's not about the money, it's a hobby and I do it for self-satisfaction and fun.
I am afraid I dont see custom building a car to convert to manual brakes. Do it right or not at all. If you think about it, you are kind of building a 1970 Chevelle with a pretty body. The reason they say it is an advantage is because there is no good way to put it. I.e. tell the customer they are going to 1960 technology and they are going to have a rock hard brake pedal....I think not. It is all in the sale of the parts.
I have a garage full of trophies from several shows including back-to-back Super Chevy wins. I have a pretty good idea of what I'm doing (regardless of what you say) and I can tell by your emotionally charged rantings that you are more of a 944 cultist of some type than just a plain enthusiast. It's just a bunch of metal for chrissakes.
I understand that this is not about speed, if it were you guys would be using new crate motors or better still LG383's. You could make a monster. Here is where I have a problem, if you are above burnouts, etc, then why do it in the first place? If you are a Master Tech (L1) then you should be able to wrench on a plain jane 4 just as well as a 350. It doesnt sound like you plan on making mods to it, doesnt take a master tech to do this swap (lord knows I am not one and have completed my fair share of swaps). I would rather have seen it hacked into a race car, at least then it would have been able to live a noble death, this way is kinda like making a Male Rottweiler wear a pink tutu. Are you sure you dont want to sell me the shell, I can find something to do with it.
The jokes on you, I'm afraid. I'm not an L1, and never said I was.
I DO plan on taking mine on track and thus the 500 dollar shocks (which BTW, is not that expensive). Even still you are going to use (I guess) stock replacement struts and shocks, which should come to right at your 500 dollars.
The two front strut cartridges were 308.00. I hope Koni adjustables meet with your approval.
No more to say about your warped view on the conversion. If someone wants to talk the nuts-and-bolts of it, that's fine.
Doug
I wish this thing would quote easier so it could be read more easily. I am reading the above going hey, didnt I say that too :>)
12K for a homemade car is no bargain. Just my opinion, of course.
I'd hate to hear what you'd have to say about a 50k street rod. Bargain or not, it's not about the money, it's a hobby and I do it for self-satisfaction and fun.
I am afraid I dont see custom building a car to convert to manual brakes. Do it right or not at all. If you think about it, you are kind of building a 1970 Chevelle with a pretty body. The reason they say it is an advantage is because there is no good way to put it. I.e. tell the customer they are going to 1960 technology and they are going to have a rock hard brake pedal....I think not. It is all in the sale of the parts.
I have a garage full of trophies from several shows including back-to-back Super Chevy wins. I have a pretty good idea of what I'm doing (regardless of what you say) and I can tell by your emotionally charged rantings that you are more of a 944 cultist of some type than just a plain enthusiast. It's just a bunch of metal for chrissakes.
I understand that this is not about speed, if it were you guys would be using new crate motors or better still LG383's. You could make a monster. Here is where I have a problem, if you are above burnouts, etc, then why do it in the first place? If you are a Master Tech (L1) then you should be able to wrench on a plain jane 4 just as well as a 350. It doesnt sound like you plan on making mods to it, doesnt take a master tech to do this swap (lord knows I am not one and have completed my fair share of swaps). I would rather have seen it hacked into a race car, at least then it would have been able to live a noble death, this way is kinda like making a Male Rottweiler wear a pink tutu. Are you sure you dont want to sell me the shell, I can find something to do with it.
The jokes on you, I'm afraid. I'm not an L1, and never said I was.
I DO plan on taking mine on track and thus the 500 dollar shocks (which BTW, is not that expensive). Even still you are going to use (I guess) stock replacement struts and shocks, which should come to right at your 500 dollars.
The two front strut cartridges were 308.00. I hope Koni adjustables meet with your approval.
No more to say about your warped view on the conversion. If someone wants to talk the nuts-and-bolts of it, that's fine.
Doug
11-19-2003, 11:43 PM
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Woah guys, lets keep it sensible shall we, Matt wants justification for doing the conversion and it's already making everyone defensive, this will end up as all the other threads on this subject and it's always because of the same thing, what you type is not always how it is recieved and so everything becomes dissproportionate. I agree matt is leaning hard on the subject but so for it's nothing compared to how this will usually go. if you have an opinion then great lets hear it, if you have expierience then share that aswell, if you have a problem then leave that on your side of the keyboard. I personally am not impressed with the porsche power plant and once tried the 928 conversion, it didn't fit....... i lost and i wouldn't try it again, the Rovers are well developed in the UK and are NOT the Buick engine, for a start it's all aluminum and weighs considerably less than the porsche engine, i'm looking for a LT1 as it's more available here but I'm thinking it would be cheaper to ship my car from the UK and transfer the whole lot and I'll know the engine well, however if I want a head gasket I won't be able to use a Buick one, I'd have to wait for one to arrive from the UK, again if I keep the poor clunky Porsche engine spares will also be hard to find and ultimately expensive. I grew up in the custom car world and love the V8, if I were to be a 4 banger fanatic I would be looking at modifing an Eaton M90 to a turbo engine and seeing if I can get a load of low down grunt out of the beast. But hey! its all personal, i love a well turned out car what ever it may be (all except hothatch's with 10 X 4 inch tail pipes and an oversized wing and BIG graphics down the side, and yes that has been done to a Porsche in the UK) and I apreciate teh effort that has gone into any conversion. I do get upset when it's called a bastardization because it has a different power plant in it when others can change the Wheels, Turbo, Seats, Induction, Eletronics, Suspension, Head, pistons, Rods, and still think they hold true to a pure Porsche, go figure!.
I have my car, some like it some hate everything it stands for, I love it and in the 4 years after I built it, it has been the best car I have ever had and wouldn't want the old engine back in there. I know some have better performance (in numeric form) under the bonnet but they are after something different from me and i hope they get it, Perry is one of those who has been on that quest since I can remember, I could easily be offensive about his progress but that would do no one any good, i truely hope he has the car fully sorted soon (if it is not already done) and he is back behind the wheel instead of under the bonnet. However it seems the best solution as always is to sell of our cars and buy a turbo.................not in this lifetime though
I have my car, some like it some hate everything it stands for, I love it and in the 4 years after I built it, it has been the best car I have ever had and wouldn't want the old engine back in there. I know some have better performance (in numeric form) under the bonnet but they are after something different from me and i hope they get it, Perry is one of those who has been on that quest since I can remember, I could easily be offensive about his progress but that would do no one any good, i truely hope he has the car fully sorted soon (if it is not already done) and he is back behind the wheel instead of under the bonnet. However it seems the best solution as always is to sell of our cars and buy a turbo.................not in this lifetime though
11-19-2003, 11:56 PM
#52
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Here is a 944NA converted to a V8. The owner of this car attended the So. CA timing belt party last month. Small block Chevy by Renegade. The transplant is very clean and the sound and power of that car is unbeliveable. Beleive it or not, the small block Chevy V8's are bulletproof..Its true. Parts are cheap also.
I forgot this owners name but his car can and email can be found in Renegades website. I got nothing against transplants. When I owned a Datsun 240Z it was common for guys to put in a Chevy small block..Its no big deal, I dont give a crap about this "purist" nonsense anyway. We are all car enthusiast arent we?
I forgot this owners name but his car can and email can be found in Renegades website. I got nothing against transplants. When I owned a Datsun 240Z it was common for guys to put in a Chevy small block..Its no big deal, I dont give a crap about this "purist" nonsense anyway. We are all car enthusiast arent we?
11-19-2003, 11:57 PM
#53
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Here is a 944NA converted to a V8. The owner of this car attended the So. CA timing belt party last month. Small block Chevy by Renegade. The transplant is very clean and the sound and power of that car is unbeliveable. Beleive it or not, the small block Chevy V8's are bulletproof..Its true. Parts are cheap also.
I forgot this owners name but his car can and email can be found in Renegades website. I got nothing against transplants. When I owned a Datsun 240Z it was common for guys to put in a Chevy small block..Its no big deal, I dont give a crap about this "purist" nonsense anyway. We are all car enthusiast arent we?
I forgot this owners name but his car can and email can be found in Renegades website. I got nothing against transplants. When I owned a Datsun 240Z it was common for guys to put in a Chevy small block..Its no big deal, I dont give a crap about this "purist" nonsense anyway. We are all car enthusiast arent we?
11-20-2003, 12:02 AM
#55
Three Wheelin'
I'm at a crossroads of what to do with my 944. It needs some bodywork and a paintjob. So I'm trying to decide between a $3-4k quality job, and a $1500 barely-better-than-maacco job. I'm feeling that now, even if I decide to keep the car for the long run, I'll go cheaper on the paint. Its simply not that important to me.
What does this have to do with this thread? Well if I do decide to keep the car for a substantial length of time, then I'm strongly considering an engine swap. Once I'm at the point to decide, the choice will be to either trade my 944 for a 951, or sell my motor (which will still be in excellent condition, probably less than 50k on it) to swap in a Northstar. Starting with a stock 300hp and ft-lbs, it'll already beat a stock 951. The engine is lighter and smaller in size than an LT-1. I feel the 32v DOHC V8 would be a MUCH better match than its pushrod brethren. Some here may have heard of CHRfab.com a company that speciallizes in N* powered sandrails. This engine is VERY robust, with stock bottom ends capable of 500-600 hp reliably (chr has proven it). But even without that silliness, a budget concious swap would be at least equal in performance to a 951, with argueably equal reliability.
Whether this is of interest to anyone, I don't know. I haven't followed swap discussions much in the past, but I don't believe anyone has a N* powered 944 to date. I'd test the idea on a Fiero first, as I'd want to be sure I could make the engine perform as it should (on aftermarket fuel/spark management) before trying it in the 944.
So keep your eyes and ears open in the next few years, I just might get crazy enough to try it.
What does this have to do with this thread? Well if I do decide to keep the car for a substantial length of time, then I'm strongly considering an engine swap. Once I'm at the point to decide, the choice will be to either trade my 944 for a 951, or sell my motor (which will still be in excellent condition, probably less than 50k on it) to swap in a Northstar. Starting with a stock 300hp and ft-lbs, it'll already beat a stock 951. The engine is lighter and smaller in size than an LT-1. I feel the 32v DOHC V8 would be a MUCH better match than its pushrod brethren. Some here may have heard of CHRfab.com a company that speciallizes in N* powered sandrails. This engine is VERY robust, with stock bottom ends capable of 500-600 hp reliably (chr has proven it). But even without that silliness, a budget concious swap would be at least equal in performance to a 951, with argueably equal reliability.
Whether this is of interest to anyone, I don't know. I haven't followed swap discussions much in the past, but I don't believe anyone has a N* powered 944 to date. I'd test the idea on a Fiero first, as I'd want to be sure I could make the engine perform as it should (on aftermarket fuel/spark management) before trying it in the 944.
So keep your eyes and ears open in the next few years, I just might get crazy enough to try it.
11-20-2003, 02:39 AM
#56
Race Car
Is is possible where the discussion is between people with similar likes to work together and share information instead of other people coming in to show their disapproval? Here are a couple reasons for anyone who wants to disagree: Nothing can replace low rpm torque other than displacement and more cylinders. No 951s, no 944, no 968, no 911 turbo, no 959, NOTHING. Also, nothing sounds like a v8 exhaust. Not the 951, not the 944, not the 968 and they never will sound as good in my opinion no matter how many $900 stainless borlas you put on. I owned many 951, 951S, 944 early and late, 968, 928, 928s4, along with a whole lot of other makes. I enjoy all these cars for WHAT THEY ARE MADE FOR and now I am going to put a corvette engine, transmission, and differential in a 86 944 and build another 84 car to be a 944 spec car. I want a car with the 944 body and I love the corvette drivetrain. If someone does not approve, I recommend for them not to do it. I don't need to justify anything to anybody period. For your information, I bought the car for $600, sold the transmission, dme and the engine for $700, Bought a complete corvette convertible with an engine fire for $1350, sold everything other than the drivetrain for $1500. I traded a $450 944 for all the work ($1500 worth of it) to completely rebuild the engine, port the aluminum heads to get 400 hp with around 400 ftlb of torque. I will do most of the work myself and will end up with a good running corvette with a 944 body and suspension (bolting the rear differential and adapting the half shafts to fit the vette differential and the 944 stubs on the other end). My total cost will be very low since I have many suspension parts, 31 mm hollow torsion bars, koni struts/shocks, and other parts sitting around in my garage doing nothing. My other cost is time, which I thoroughly enjoy spending. Now I just have to find a good fabricator to make custom brackets for the tranny. If anyone is interested in helping me figure out how to do this, let me know. I can help in finding wrecked vettes or camaros or anything you want to find if you are also interested in doing it.
Last edited by Legoland951; 11-20-2003 at 02:40 PM.
11-20-2003, 04:03 AM
#57
Rennlist Junkie Forever
I'm gonna have to chime in here...
First off... I think it is a great ideal. The V8 will provide power unmatched by the best of the turbo 4 engines...
But I would do the swap differently...
I would swap in a Buick GNX engine. Easily capable is smoking a small block, but with less weight, and the weight there is, shifted back, to more than compensate for the extra weight by better weight distribution.
In fact.. I'd have an all aluminum 4.0 Buick turbo engine stuck in there.
But if I was going to use anything but a stock donor engine V8, I would be doing a 434" or 454" small block. Same amount of work, same size engine on the outside.. but a whole hell of a lot more power.
Anyway... I'm all over this. I've thought about doing the same thing many many times.
If the install times could be brought down, it would be a great kit.
And... turbo Buick or small block V8... it would be one damn fast car.
TonyG
PS> Good luck
First off... I think it is a great ideal. The V8 will provide power unmatched by the best of the turbo 4 engines...
But I would do the swap differently...
I would swap in a Buick GNX engine. Easily capable is smoking a small block, but with less weight, and the weight there is, shifted back, to more than compensate for the extra weight by better weight distribution.
In fact.. I'd have an all aluminum 4.0 Buick turbo engine stuck in there.
But if I was going to use anything but a stock donor engine V8, I would be doing a 434" or 454" small block. Same amount of work, same size engine on the outside.. but a whole hell of a lot more power.
Anyway... I'm all over this. I've thought about doing the same thing many many times.
If the install times could be brought down, it would be a great kit.
And... turbo Buick or small block V8... it would be one damn fast car.
TonyG
PS> Good luck
11-20-2003, 10:36 AM
#58
I think you guys are misreading me. I dont personally care what you do with your hunk of metal. It is, after all, your hunk of metal. TonyG, for the first time in this thread, has finally given justification for doing such a swap. I want to go real fast. That is sensible and justifyable. I want reliability and cheaper parts is garbage. For what the conversion costs you could have spare crate motors stacked in your garage. How long is an NA motor good for? I dont know but I have seen them with way over 150K on the original, how much more reliable do you need. When you hit about 300K you would have to analyze the shell to see if it was any good anymore.
A 50K hot rod vs. a converted 944 is like night and day. I appreciate the work you guys are doing. It might even be "neat" to see/ride in one. I dont want or feel entitled to justification, I am just trying to understand and to this point only one person has made mention of going fast. The original poster just looked like he might have overlooked some very necessary items and I thought that we could share information. Then everything got twisted. I never meant to hijack said thread. More to the point, I was trying to maintain some sense of reason, if XX is your goal you could get there by doing YY and maybe not spending 10K in the process.
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A 50K hot rod vs. a converted 944 is like night and day. I appreciate the work you guys are doing. It might even be "neat" to see/ride in one. I dont want or feel entitled to justification, I am just trying to understand and to this point only one person has made mention of going fast. The original poster just looked like he might have overlooked some very necessary items and I thought that we could share information. Then everything got twisted. I never meant to hijack said thread. More to the point, I was trying to maintain some sense of reason, if XX is your goal you could get there by doing YY and maybe not spending 10K in the process.
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11-20-2003, 04:50 PM
#59
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Now I remember why I sometimes avoid Rennlist for years at a time
I am doing this conversion because I want to, and because I can.
For those of you who think I have never seen an engine swap and have no idea how the hell they come down, these are SOME of my previous cars
48AB block, Offy top, Iskenderian cam, 3/8"-square, in a '27 T-bucket
Same tub, Chrysler hemi with altered GMC 671 blower and other goodies
Same tub again, with Model B block, Model C crank (for 1'4" more stroke)
OHV set-up
Lotus Europa with very hot Ford (English) (I got the engine from a Dr. who claimed was a Cosworth...either way, he had it way over-jetted, so I got it dirt cheap because he thought he had fried the bearings/etc. from the way it smoked).
'79 'Vette with Traco engine, Gulstrand suspension
In addition I have owned and done numerous performance-related mods to a series of Mercedes SL's, a Mk.-I XKE, and others.
I will continue to report on how this goes. It may be a total flop. I don't know yet how it will come down. I do know, I WILL have done it, and I'll know WHY it worked, or didn't. In real time, not theory.
Canuck
I am doing this conversion because I want to, and because I can.
For those of you who think I have never seen an engine swap and have no idea how the hell they come down, these are SOME of my previous cars
48AB block, Offy top, Iskenderian cam, 3/8"-square, in a '27 T-bucket
Same tub, Chrysler hemi with altered GMC 671 blower and other goodies
Same tub again, with Model B block, Model C crank (for 1'4" more stroke)
OHV set-up
Lotus Europa with very hot Ford (English) (I got the engine from a Dr. who claimed was a Cosworth...either way, he had it way over-jetted, so I got it dirt cheap because he thought he had fried the bearings/etc. from the way it smoked).
'79 'Vette with Traco engine, Gulstrand suspension
In addition I have owned and done numerous performance-related mods to a series of Mercedes SL's, a Mk.-I XKE, and others.
I will continue to report on how this goes. It may be a total flop. I don't know yet how it will come down. I do know, I WILL have done it, and I'll know WHY it worked, or didn't. In real time, not theory.
Canuck
11-20-2003, 04:53 PM
#60
That is the right attitude. It is your project.
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