m3 the best handling car period?
10-19-2003, 11:28 AM
#61
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Originally posted by Robby
I don't know that our cars could never touch them- I mean, it really depends on what all you want to do- let's put it this way though- the 951 maxed out would have to lose to the E36M3 maxed out, on the STREET- the Bimmer just has a superior chassis & the mutli-link susp- I hate it, but it's true. Had I known what I do now, I might have ended up in one- OR an Audi S4- those have even better chassis than the M3's- again, I'm talking about modding the cars though- if you took the same $ & threw it at both, for the street, the BMW would handle better, but, would cost more to get into of course... As for track, I would LOVE to know what the M3's do at WS- anyone? Chris Cervelli has the 951 lap record there @ 1:22 or so- would love to know how a really modded M3 would be- on the track, I don't think the multi-link helps as much- another thing- B/T th E36 & E46 M3's- the E36 I rode in (a friend's) would take an E46 ANY DAY- it did have the H&R's I was talking about though- I have driven an E46 convertible & I LOVED IT! Incredible car, but I just don't see it as leaps & bounds ahead (if really at all) in a handling department- or braking for that matter, but, for accelration & sustained braking, well, I'm sure the nod goes for the E46- if you could get 300+HP/TQ out of the E36 (however) & modded the brakes, I think the E36 would win, but, I may be wrong- haven't spent enough time in E46- they jut weigh so much more & feel like they've gone softer- I LOVE that gearing though, but the diff seems to be having a LOT of EXPENSIVE probs from what I hear...
I've GOT to check out that SupraTT E36 M3... Sounds KILLER! One of the hottest engines mated w/one of the hottest chassis- Brakes & mild susp mods are easy- if we could just do something about the gearing & interior!
I don't know that our cars could never touch them- I mean, it really depends on what all you want to do- let's put it this way though- the 951 maxed out would have to lose to the E36M3 maxed out, on the STREET- the Bimmer just has a superior chassis & the mutli-link susp- I hate it, but it's true. Had I known what I do now, I might have ended up in one- OR an Audi S4- those have even better chassis than the M3's- again, I'm talking about modding the cars though- if you took the same $ & threw it at both, for the street, the BMW would handle better, but, would cost more to get into of course... As for track, I would LOVE to know what the M3's do at WS- anyone? Chris Cervelli has the 951 lap record there @ 1:22 or so- would love to know how a really modded M3 would be- on the track, I don't think the multi-link helps as much- another thing- B/T th E36 & E46 M3's- the E36 I rode in (a friend's) would take an E46 ANY DAY- it did have the H&R's I was talking about though- I have driven an E46 convertible & I LOVED IT! Incredible car, but I just don't see it as leaps & bounds ahead (if really at all) in a handling department- or braking for that matter, but, for accelration & sustained braking, well, I'm sure the nod goes for the E46- if you could get 300+HP/TQ out of the E36 (however) & modded the brakes, I think the E36 would win, but, I may be wrong- haven't spent enough time in E46- they jut weigh so much more & feel like they've gone softer- I LOVE that gearing though, but the diff seems to be having a LOT of EXPENSIVE probs from what I hear...
I've GOT to check out that SupraTT E36 M3... Sounds KILLER! One of the hottest engines mated w/one of the hottest chassis- Brakes & mild susp mods are easy- if we could just do something about the gearing & interior!
10-19-2003, 11:39 AM
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Originally posted by Silverbullet951
Well, I guess that answers the question. So what about our cars IS better? I know looks and name, but what else?
Well, I guess that answers the question. So what about our cars IS better? I know looks and name, but what else?
Our GEARING is better, for street at least- of course I thik the BMW's can be changed eassily enough. OUR bang for the buck power-wise is DEFINATELY BETTER 
I don't know- what do YOU think?
10-19-2003, 03:06 PM
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Yea well, I always thought my car handled great and had plenty of power, but damn, these M cars are in a different league. I still love the experience of my car though. I don't think anything comes close to it. I've been in Ferraris and other porsches, but my 951 is a different experience. I never get bored driving it. Probably an F40 would be a better experience but nothing else. When I get the vitesse kit and work on the suspension setup, I think I'll have more than I ever wanted. I'm sure an E36 is more for everyday and for grocery shopping, and I don't DO everyday, grocery getters...
10-20-2003, 03:44 AM
#66
Nordschleife Master
Does anyone have any of the M3 review's on a website?
I think it just comes down to there repective generation..
The 944 was undeputed as the best of its generation. The m3 the best of its and its all about as diffrent as that.
I think it just comes down to there repective generation..
The 944 was undeputed as the best of its generation. The m3 the best of its and its all about as diffrent as that.
06-13-2022, 02:34 AM
#67
With only a narrow-window neutral handling, the 944 sounds like a clown when comparing to E36's handling.
Classic sporty hatchbacks --
(FWD) VW vs (AWD) Audi vs (RWD) Porsche：
(from CAR magazine UK)
The Porsche loses points in this chapter. It is a wonderful long distance tourer, but on winding sick-bag B-roads larded with crests and tight corners, the 944 is simply not as nimble and agile as the Corrado. The Porsche can switch quite easily from understeer to oversteer in one and the same bend. Turn-in is reasonably quick, but the nose does not always follow the chosen path with the necessary obedience. A wider throttle opening is likely to tighten the line, and yet this neutral phase is narrow and fragile. Press on, and the tail will come around and destroy the short-lived composure. Catching it is easy and fun! - but there is no doubt that a hard-charging 944 requires a lot more care and attention than its challengers. Traction is so-so in the wet, and poor on truly slippery surfaces, and the directional stability is not perfect either because the steering is too sensitive around the straight-ahead position.
The Corrado lifts a rear wheel at speed, but these acrobatics do not upset the car's balance. Under power, the VW will eventually understeer away from the apex, reacting obediently to any de-throttle manoeuvres that instantly tighten the leash. Lift-off oversteer can be induced quite easily, and it is actually possible to keep the tail out by applying enough power and a generous dose of opposite lock. The Corrado has more grip than the 944 and more traction, it has more responsive steering, and has impeccable directional stability.
The Audi is, above all, protected by a Guardian Angel called Quattro. If it were not for the clever 4wd system, the car from Ingolstadt would fall straight through the grid into oblivion. It is hard to understand why Ingolstadt did not do a better job when tuning the Coupe's suspension. Although the springs and dampers have been stiffened, the Coupe floats and wavers just as badly as the 90 saloon. While the Quattro drivetrain does its best to keep all four wheels busy, the body and chassis fight a constant battle that is dramatic to watch and traumatic to experience. The whole car heaves and lurches like a four-wheeled successor to the Titanic. Roadholding, traction and grip are fine, but balance and composure are definitely not. Excessive body roll, doughy steering and an underdamped and undersprung chassis mar the Audi's handling to an extent that is simply incompatible with the manners expected of a sports car.
...comfort
...The Porsche also has the least comfortable suspension. Stiff springs and firm dampers act as simultaneous interpreters which instantly transmit every undulation straight into your spine. The Audi has much softer hardware and probably twice as much spring travel which is fine for *****-footed drivers. Anybody ambitious enough to push this car to its limit will, however, experience a rough and bumpy flight which is unnerving, un-comfortable and, in the final analysis, potentially unsafe. The Corrado strikes the best compromise. Its suspension is compliant and supple, and although there is a generous amount of body roll, the car's mid-corner tap dance frightens onlookers more than the occupants.”
Classic sporty hatchbacks --
(FWD) VW vs (AWD) Audi vs (RWD) Porsche：
(from CAR magazine UK)
New order: Audi Coupe Quattro vs Porsche 944 vs VW Corrado G60 (CAR archive, 1989)
“Roadholding and handlingThe Porsche loses points in this chapter. It is a wonderful long distance tourer, but on winding sick-bag B-roads larded with crests and tight corners, the 944 is simply not as nimble and agile as the Corrado. The Porsche can switch quite easily from understeer to oversteer in one and the same bend. Turn-in is reasonably quick, but the nose does not always follow the chosen path with the necessary obedience. A wider throttle opening is likely to tighten the line, and yet this neutral phase is narrow and fragile. Press on, and the tail will come around and destroy the short-lived composure. Catching it is easy and fun! - but there is no doubt that a hard-charging 944 requires a lot more care and attention than its challengers. Traction is so-so in the wet, and poor on truly slippery surfaces, and the directional stability is not perfect either because the steering is too sensitive around the straight-ahead position.
The Corrado lifts a rear wheel at speed, but these acrobatics do not upset the car's balance. Under power, the VW will eventually understeer away from the apex, reacting obediently to any de-throttle manoeuvres that instantly tighten the leash. Lift-off oversteer can be induced quite easily, and it is actually possible to keep the tail out by applying enough power and a generous dose of opposite lock. The Corrado has more grip than the 944 and more traction, it has more responsive steering, and has impeccable directional stability.
The Audi is, above all, protected by a Guardian Angel called Quattro. If it were not for the clever 4wd system, the car from Ingolstadt would fall straight through the grid into oblivion. It is hard to understand why Ingolstadt did not do a better job when tuning the Coupe's suspension. Although the springs and dampers have been stiffened, the Coupe floats and wavers just as badly as the 90 saloon. While the Quattro drivetrain does its best to keep all four wheels busy, the body and chassis fight a constant battle that is dramatic to watch and traumatic to experience. The whole car heaves and lurches like a four-wheeled successor to the Titanic. Roadholding, traction and grip are fine, but balance and composure are definitely not. Excessive body roll, doughy steering and an underdamped and undersprung chassis mar the Audi's handling to an extent that is simply incompatible with the manners expected of a sports car.
...comfort
...The Porsche also has the least comfortable suspension. Stiff springs and firm dampers act as simultaneous interpreters which instantly transmit every undulation straight into your spine. The Audi has much softer hardware and probably twice as much spring travel which is fine for *****-footed drivers. Anybody ambitious enough to push this car to its limit will, however, experience a rough and bumpy flight which is unnerving, un-comfortable and, in the final analysis, potentially unsafe. The Corrado strikes the best compromise. Its suspension is compliant and supple, and although there is a generous amount of body roll, the car's mid-corner tap dance frightens onlookers more than the occupants.”
06-13-2022, 03:47 AM
#68
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06-13-2022, 02:41 PM
#69
Burning Brakes
BTW, the E36 was developed 20 years after the 924. What has a chassis developed 20 years after the E36 that handles better? Just about everythng.
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06-14-2022, 05:52 AM
#70
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Does appear all that outdated to me.
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06-14-2022, 08:51 AM
#71
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doesn't*
06-17-2022, 07:58 AM
#72
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Pretty dammed impressive! That was fun to watch and the 951 sounded incredible!
06-17-2022, 02:26 PM
#73
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Speaking about fun to watch..
06-18-2022, 01:47 PM
#74
Pro
I’ve driven a lot of e36..
I have a 95 M3 that I drive all the time. It’s basically my 1st string summer DD that is always reliable.. Year after year I just know it’s road ready and it’s the standard choice of driver..
It gets tagged out of DD service when I put something more interesting into DD service.. Like one of my Porsches is road ready and I drive that for the summer, it being as reliable as necessary for my circumstances/plans..
I have my M3 legal right now.. Runs perfect.. Put about 2,000 miles on it earlier this summer..
Haven’t driven it in like 2 weeks or so..
Was doing some work and driving my jeep..
Bought a turbo Forrester and sorted it out, drove it a few days to iron out bugs.. Replaced a couple sensors and did some ECU work deleting BS..
Handed that off to the GF to DD..
Bought a WRX, gotta drive it to iron out bugs..
Diagnosed smoking problem, rebuilt turbo, no more smoke.. Replaced WB. Bunch of little things tiring up loose ends..
Lot of logging making sure the tune is good because she’s pretty tuned up..
Had to retune boost control in the ECU because it was overshooting and overcorrecting too much.. (maybe my rebuild spools better)
Got the boost control nice, solid, flat, safe 16.5psi from spool to redline..
I’m up to the low 90% injector duty near redline.. I could put more boost in the midrange and use up more injector there but I’d rather it be flat than a big torque bump in the middle.. I don’t much like that..
Its more fun to drive than my M3 so I’ll probably keep driving the WRX..
My M3 is kind of my “boring” car, believe it or not..
Its handling is pretty perfect.. Boring..
I can tell you that it’s handling is quite sensitive to wear parts though.. Much more so than most other cars..
Any little thing that goes wrong with the suspension seems to have drastic consequences in its handling and how it drives..
It needs to all be in very good shape to be good, and goes downhill fast when anything wears out..
It’s a pretty good car.. I do like it a lot..
Im also a bit easy on it because anything that breaks in it is quite expensive.. The suspension wears out easily.. I try to go slow on dirt roads to not mess the paint up to where it will start rusting.. It has the worst approach angles and will scrape on anything (stock height + big tires) so it’s bad at getting to lakes and such.. Any big bumps are quite harsh in it and it seems like it will break it..
By contrast my 931 has great approach angles, goes over quite uneven surfaces very well, doesn’t scrape on anything, suspension is much more durable and feels like it.. It’s like a Baja beetle in the back, not gonna break that.. Still try to keep rock chips off of it..
931 is a much better slight off-roader to get to lakes and campgrounds..
931 is also a lot faster, more comfortable in the highway, turns and brakes better, more fun to drive..
Am I really that spoiled that I feel the M3 is just meh?
Its more of a drivers car than any never BMW I’ve driven, but it NEEDS A DANG TURBO!!
Was telling my GF that I should sell the WRX and use ALL of that money to turbo the M3..
Quite expensive car to turbo for some reason..
Everything with that dang car is expensive..
Its like the BMW guys have some mindset that only the best of the best will do, anything that is cheaper is terrible, so if it doesn’t cost a million bucks then it’s junk.. So everything costs a million bucks for it, because if it didn’t, then nobody would buy it..
The M3 is kind of my baseline though..
”It’s as fast as the M3” is kinda my line on when something else starts getting into the mildly satisfactory range..
If it’s “faster than the M3”, then ok, it’s a somewhat quick car..
The power level of the M3, is once again, meh..
Its OK..
Not slow, not fast.. Just meh..
It is about the best SOUNDING car ever though.. So their is that..
Its sounds like sex!
I have a 95 M3 that I drive all the time. It’s basically my 1st string summer DD that is always reliable.. Year after year I just know it’s road ready and it’s the standard choice of driver..
It gets tagged out of DD service when I put something more interesting into DD service.. Like one of my Porsches is road ready and I drive that for the summer, it being as reliable as necessary for my circumstances/plans..
I have my M3 legal right now.. Runs perfect.. Put about 2,000 miles on it earlier this summer..
Haven’t driven it in like 2 weeks or so..
Was doing some work and driving my jeep..
Bought a turbo Forrester and sorted it out, drove it a few days to iron out bugs.. Replaced a couple sensors and did some ECU work deleting BS..
Handed that off to the GF to DD..
Bought a WRX, gotta drive it to iron out bugs..
Diagnosed smoking problem, rebuilt turbo, no more smoke.. Replaced WB. Bunch of little things tiring up loose ends..
Lot of logging making sure the tune is good because she’s pretty tuned up..
Had to retune boost control in the ECU because it was overshooting and overcorrecting too much.. (maybe my rebuild spools better)
Got the boost control nice, solid, flat, safe 16.5psi from spool to redline..
I’m up to the low 90% injector duty near redline.. I could put more boost in the midrange and use up more injector there but I’d rather it be flat than a big torque bump in the middle.. I don’t much like that..
Its more fun to drive than my M3 so I’ll probably keep driving the WRX..
My M3 is kind of my “boring” car, believe it or not..
Its handling is pretty perfect.. Boring..
I can tell you that it’s handling is quite sensitive to wear parts though.. Much more so than most other cars..
Any little thing that goes wrong with the suspension seems to have drastic consequences in its handling and how it drives..
It needs to all be in very good shape to be good, and goes downhill fast when anything wears out..
It’s a pretty good car.. I do like it a lot..
Im also a bit easy on it because anything that breaks in it is quite expensive.. The suspension wears out easily.. I try to go slow on dirt roads to not mess the paint up to where it will start rusting.. It has the worst approach angles and will scrape on anything (stock height + big tires) so it’s bad at getting to lakes and such.. Any big bumps are quite harsh in it and it seems like it will break it..
By contrast my 931 has great approach angles, goes over quite uneven surfaces very well, doesn’t scrape on anything, suspension is much more durable and feels like it.. It’s like a Baja beetle in the back, not gonna break that.. Still try to keep rock chips off of it..
931 is a much better slight off-roader to get to lakes and campgrounds..
931 is also a lot faster, more comfortable in the highway, turns and brakes better, more fun to drive..
Am I really that spoiled that I feel the M3 is just meh?
Its more of a drivers car than any never BMW I’ve driven, but it NEEDS A DANG TURBO!!
Was telling my GF that I should sell the WRX and use ALL of that money to turbo the M3..
Quite expensive car to turbo for some reason..
Everything with that dang car is expensive..
Its like the BMW guys have some mindset that only the best of the best will do, anything that is cheaper is terrible, so if it doesn’t cost a million bucks then it’s junk.. So everything costs a million bucks for it, because if it didn’t, then nobody would buy it..
The M3 is kind of my baseline though..
”It’s as fast as the M3” is kinda my line on when something else starts getting into the mildly satisfactory range..
If it’s “faster than the M3”, then ok, it’s a somewhat quick car..
The power level of the M3, is once again, meh..
Its OK..
Not slow, not fast.. Just meh..
It is about the best SOUNDING car ever though.. So their is that..
Its sounds like sex!
Last edited by fasteddie313; 06-18-2022 at 01:55 PM.
