Robby

John- several things...

1st- why would someone put a later 3.2L into a 95 car? I mean, why wouldn't you just save the expense & buy the later car to begin with? UNLESS you ALREADY HAD the 95 that is...

2nd- As for ALL-OUT mods, I assumed the 3.2L would be stronger, BUT, I meant just w/basic common mods- chips, exhaust, TB, & filter... Actually, conical filters oftentimes LOSE power b/c they draw in HOT air, but it depends on the particular application. Exhausts are another overrated mod w/the exception of SupraTTs & RX7TT's, & several others- I think the biggest benefit of an aftermarket exhaust for the E36M3 is weight reduction except it's more rearward- that thing weighs ~70lbs(!) & is louder than some of the aftermarkets(!?)- I like QUIET, but I know I'm in the minority. I drove a '00 540i once- @ 120mph it's as quiet as stock 951 @ idle! It gives a feeling of EFFORTLESS power- 540i feels like it's under NO strain- 951 feels/sounds like it's working harder to go all out- of course 951 is much better than MANY...

3rd- what is the S50 engine?

4th- Evo M3's were IT in the late 90's. Unfortunately, their TQ could be higher- E36M3's are cool b/c their TQ is almost = to HP. Evo & E46M3 are much dif- even M5s. But, I WILL admit that the E46M3 doesn't FEEL like it's low on TQ in reality- feels stronger than 269TQ would suggest...

5th- anyone know if a SupraTT engine would go into an E36M3 or other 3-series chassis? I'm on a big SupraTT engine kick- I don't care for the car as much (mostly b/c of the F&F BS), but, I believe the Lexus is300 had the NA Supra engine in it- could possibly stuff the TT into it w/some bolt-ons & have a REAL bad-***, semi-sleeper. Unfortunately, it won't fit in 951's- I'm also wondering how much the engine weighs & how it would affect M3 weight dist IF it would go- any idea on this stuff? SupraTT engine is hard to beat- anything you could drop it into could EASILY become a 500+HP/TQ car- I don't have $ right now for such a project, but, can always dream...

Last- the superacharged 3.2L sounds BAD! AA turbo's are another way to go- I would like to find out about dropping the M5 V8 into it, like the factory V8 M3's on the track- if you could take one of THOSE & do some mild mods, you'd have a REAL bad-***- all of those BMW engines are pretty nice. Of course, again, the SupraTT engine w/mild bolt-ons would beat them all- IF it would fit- probably wouldn't though w/out TONS of $$$...

Jon Moeller

Robby,
1) The 3.2 swap is what you do after the "money shift", for those not in the know, the e36 M3 has a nasty habit of going from 5th to 2nd, instead of 5th to 4th. At track events, it's a great way to determine the physical redline of the m50 - "I think it siezed at about 11k rpm." ;-)

2) BMW's = 4 door 928's. I love them, and will buy another one, when I need a practical car. Just waiting for the new M5's to drop to $20k (yeah, right.) Any good Bimmer will eat road at ungodly speed in insane comfort.

3) S50 engine = the euro M3 engine. Don't remember the exact specs, but I think it was 236tq, 321 hp. The US M3 engine was designated M50b30, if I recall, and has way more in common with the 2.5 liter M50b25 than it does with the engine that was put in the euro M3.

4) If you mean the e30 M3 evo, than you're right. Around town that car wouldn't be much fun. On a track, it can't be beat. My e30 325is was a fantastic track car. The e30 M3 evo was the pinnacle. Now, if only a decent engine didn't cost $10k.

5) It's all been done, do a few searches, you'll come up with it. This is definitely a money-no-object realm, though. Or you live in your shop.

Good topic.
-J

Robby

No, I meant the E36 Evo- like you saaid- it has MUCH lower TQ than power... I understnad the E30's are FUN little cars- they have much higher TQ in relation to HP ratings than Evo E36 & E46 cars... STILL, the gearing sucks for all those cars except for the new M3's- they have almost perfect 6-sp ratios... Even the M5 is a little short- I hate it when places go w/6-sp & don't optimize all the gears right- the 968 was the worst example of 6-sp gearing I know of- it doesn't FEEL horrible, but it could be MUCH bettter, & SHOULD have, as it's EXPENSIVE to change- ~$900 a gear, so, a good $3600 for jut parts... Of course, again, the gears can be changed in the BMW's, from what I understand- the FD would probably be best- you'd almost HAVE to have taller gears if you did an AA turbo 3-seies... I've never heard of anyone w/a SupraTT engine in a BMW before- would like to see it....

Thanks for all the info....

eclou

It's not the 6spd gearbox that is the great thing about the E46M3- the E36M3 evo II (euro) had them too. It's the combo of the 6spd with a 3.64 rear diff. The 5 spd has essentially the exact same gearing as the 6spd, save for the .83 OD 6th ratio. The stock rear diff is either 3.15 (95) or 3.23 (96-99).

The OBD II vs OBD I myth is rapidly dissolving. Many of us E36 OBD II owners are getting as much if not more power out of the OBD II. My E36M3 is OBD II, and I have 260+rwhp, a 6spd tranny and 3.64 rear diff. I can run with any E46M3 or stripped 993, LS1 vette, supercharged E36 M3 at the track.

Regarding the 50/50 balance, the engine sits almost entirely behind the front axle. The front overhang is almost zero. That is why the balance is near ideal.

Eugene

v944god

My friend has both a Supra TT, and IS300. He says the IS has the same exact engine as the Supra but in the N/A form. I was a little bit suprised because the IS is a pretty nice car, I like the feel, but its an n/a. He's planning on doing a turbo add-on to the IS300, but the engine compartment looks so tight.

Jon Moeller

Eclou,
Thanks for the corrections. I was going off of 1 year old knowledge. My sieve of a brain had let a lot go. I forgot that the lower final drive in the '96+ was a contributor to the improved acceleration times. I had the drive ratios reversed in an earlier post.

Your M3 sounds impressive. Color? ;-)

-Jon

CT944

What the hell...I'll post mine!

Jon Moeller

That second one isn't an M3. Oh, wait . . .

-J

lswanie

My friend drives a 98 m3 and i would have to disagree in saying its hadling is better than a 951s. When it comes to driving around town and stuff the lighter steering is nice and responsive. However, the limits of grip on the 951s seem to be much higher. Even at low speeds, like the last autox i attended, my 951s was going through turns much faster than both he and the other two e36 m3's were w/o losing traction. Also at high speeds the 951s feels much more stable. Once you are up to about 130 in the m3 it gets wobbley feeling. The suspension is also too soft for my tastes but that can be taken care of easily enough. Their soft suspension is supposed to be part of their awesome hadleing but it seems like the car is inteded to have limits that are easily reached by somewhat (amateur) skilled drivers. I have driven an e30 m3 and it was infinately better in hadleing than an e36 and i am pretty sure is capable of being pushed much harder. Another thing that i am not too sure about is their weight distribution, it was my understanding that it is 52/48 as opposed to 48/52 as someone previously posted. The braking of the cars is also something that i think, at least technically, the 951s should be superior at. The 951s has four piston brembo calipers as opposed to the m3's single large piston calipers. The four piston design should stop the lighter car signifigantly shorter than the m3's single piston calipers. Sure the rotors are larger but its the calipers that really matter. Some of this info may be wrong but it is stuff that i have learned from my friends who drive bmw's.

David Ray

Look at the last R&T that compared "super cars in 2003" Corvette beat everyone at Willow Springs (including Porsche)....again every test is subjective. I'll take a 917 against anything out there and I bet I get the best scores period! Vette, Cobra, Lotus, Viper are all posers!

The GT40 doesn't stand a chance so don't even pipe in. Bar none, the 917 is the ultimate car in the world! It would still win LeMans if allowed to run.

Robby

eclou- "It's not the 6spd gearbox that is the great thing about the E46M3- the E36M3 evo II (euro) had them too. It's the combo of the 6spd with a 3.64 rear diff." This is what I mean- the FD #'s don't really mean anything until they're multiplied by the forward gears- it's a combo of the TWO- I'm going by where the redlines are at each gear- that shows the length of the gears- the spreads- assuming normal RD tire & stock redlines- the new E46M3 has perfect gearing, in that respect, IMO- it's a lot like a 951, slightly taller, but w/a 6th gear on TOP of the rest....

David- what were the TIMES at WS for some of these cars? What was the M3? E36 or E46? I couldn't see them testing an E36 at this point- would love to know times either way for comparison- Turbo S runs 1:41...

Iswanie- actually, the rotor diam provides the leverage- & tires of course, for traction... the amount of pistons doesn't do anything for single short stops- they WOULD help some, more than likely, for sustained driving- the SIZE of the pad is likely more important, but, I'm just assuming on this last one... All of the weight dists I've seen for the E36M3 were 49/51- the e46M3 IS ~52/48. Also, the most memorable M3 I've been in had H&R coil-overs ~twice as stiff as factory- STILL EXTREMELY forgiving & would out-hang the Turbo S by FAR! I DO know that the normal M3's seemed to hang ~.90g's though- that's pretty even w/Turbo S. Not sure about the "above 130" thing as that's about as fast as I've ever been in one- of course, that was on longer backroads(!). :-)

John & eclou- are you SURE that the forward gears are the exact SAME b/t 95 & 96 or were they changed TOO? I know that the Lightweights had shorter FD's too & more than likely shorter overall ratios- the 96 was supposed to be faster (from what I remember) b/c of the extra TQ, &, especially the point where it comes on- ~350rpms earlier...

v944god- I had always heard the is300 had NA Supra engine too- would love to take one & turbocharge- Danno had said that taking the NA & turboing was supposed to be better than modding the turbo....

CT944

My M3 has Koni adjustables and Eibach springs. The handling can compete with anything. It really is a hard comparison, as they are both great cars.

The new M3 is a totally different league. I've driven one with the SMG trans and 19" wheels, and I don't think many cars can touch it. From acceleration to braking, that car is one of the best you can buy.

I've seen pix of a Supra engine in an E36, it does exist. Bimmerforums.com has plenty of posts with the pic.

Later!

Silverbullet951

SO wait, Our 951's have no chance against an E36 or 46? Is there any possibility that we can have our cars EQUAL the handling of these cars? Because it does seem that our cars have the potential..

My cousins E46 has he most incredible handling. WAY WAY better than my 951.

Robby

I don't know that our cars could never touch them- I mean, it really depends on what all you want to do- let's put it this way though- the 951 maxed out would have to lose to the E36M3 maxed out, on the STREET- the Bimmer just has a superior chassis & the mutli-link susp- I hate it, but it's true. Had I known what I do now, I might have ended up in one- OR an Audi S4- those have even better chassis than the M3's- again, I'm talking about modding the cars though- if you took the same $ & threw it at both, for the street, the BMW would handle better, but, would cost more to get into of course... As for track, I would LOVE to know what the M3's do at WS- anyone? Chris Cervelli has the 951 lap record there @ 1:22 or so- would love to know how a really modded M3 would be- on the track, I don't think the multi-link helps as much- another thing- B/T th E36 & E46 M3's- the E36 I rode in (a friend's) would take an E46 ANY DAY- it did have the H&R's I was talking about though- I have driven an E46 convertible & I LOVED IT! Incredible car, but I just don't see it as leaps & bounds ahead (if really at all) in a handling department- or braking for that matter, but, for accelration & sustained braking, well, I'm sure the nod goes for the E46- if you could get 300+HP/TQ out of the E36 (however) & modded the brakes, I think the E36 would win, but, I may be wrong- haven't spent enough time in E46- they jut weigh so much more & feel like they've gone softer- I LOVE that gearing though, but the diff seems to be having a LOT of EXPENSIVE probs from what I hear...

I've GOT to check out that SupraTT E36 M3... Sounds KILLER! One of the hottest engines mated w/one of the hottest chassis- Brakes & mild susp mods are easy- if we could just do something about the gearing & interior!

eclou

All US spec E36M3's had the exact same ZF 5 spd, regardless of year. The rear diff ratios were as follows:

95 MT - 3.15 AT-3.23 LTW model - 3.23
96-99 MT - 3.23 AT 3.38

The EuroM3's had a Getrag 6spd. The E36M3 Getrag has almost the exact same ratios as the current E46M3 Getrag gearbox. I would not be surprised if they were in fact the same box. The new Z4's and 330iPP come with a new ZF 6spd that again has almost the exact same gear ratios - but the box can be bought brand new from BMW for $1400(wholesale)!!! This is going to become the next mod of choice for the E36'ers since it is a direct bolt-up.

Eugene