Two Sides to Every Story...
08-17-2001, 02:09 PM
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Two Sides to Every Story...
Dear Rennlist Members,
Recently, member Konrad Alvarino has blanketed the entire Rennlist with a grossly skewed tale of woe that pretty much paints Windward Performance Products, Inc. (and myself) as the "anti-christ" in the Porsche performance arena.
For those of you who do not wish to read an extremely long post (which this is) let me just say here and now that there are two sides to every story, and his does not even closely approximate the truth. He did suggest that (until I hung up on him) I had been helpful and courteous, and that is true. I will not, however, subject myself to ranting, raving, and profanity from any customer. I will hang up every time, and if you can't handle that sort of rejection, then there is no shame in therapy.
I am now going to present the truth.
This regrettable situation did not unfold at all as Mr. Alvarino suggests, and he has neglected some very important points, and lied about others.
First, let it be known that he threatened me with a serious Rennlist flaming if we did not bow to his completely unreasonable demands, and he obviously made good on his promise. Unfortunately, he has shown neither honor nor shame in his post regarding his deliberate misrepresentation of the facts.
As many in the Porsche community may remember, there was a "drought" of H&R coil-over kits in the U.S. for awhile. During this time, Mr. Alvarino wished to obtain one for his 993 Twin Turbo. Upon checking, I was able to inform him that we had one H&R coil-over #29590-2 in stock that was missing the spherical-bearing upper camber plates and rear upper shock mounts. I offered to furnish the very nice E.R.P. units in their place for no additional charge. (Our customers will be familiar with the E.R.P. line--they are arguably some of the nicest components available, and are much more expensive than their H&R counterparts.)
He not only agreed, but thanked me, stating that this was a much better alternative than waiting the 6-8 weeks that H&R was quoting to get more of these systems in from Germany.
The system was sent to him, and what ensued was a nightmare. He did not understand how to install it, and was quite indignant and upset when he found out that the car had to be re-aligned and corner balanced after the installation of the suspension! At this time, I suggested (in the nicest, friendliest manner that I could) that he may be a bit over his head on this project and should consult a local shop for installation.
He then got mad and wanted to ship it back. I agreed, based on the assumption that it was in "as-new" condition. When I received it, it was inspected and found that it was very scratched, dented, and not saleable at all, let alone as new. (He did not even do us the courtesy of using original packaging--it was simply all thrown together in a big box with no packing materials, and arrived in horrible condition, ripped, with bushings and hardware dropping out of the mutilated packaging.)
I called him, and told him that it would not be accepted. After numerous phone calls, we agreed on a compromise--I would honor the refund in the form of a store credit to be used toward another purchase, minus the money necessary to replace the missing and damaged components. He agreed.
It should also be noted (and our customers are all aware of this) that prior to shipping any order, the customer signs off on a confirmation sheet that clearly states our return policy and re-stock fees.
Unfortunately, after agreeing to this, he did a chargeback on his credit card. We have submitted all documentation to both banks, and (after extensive exchanges) both banks ruled in our favor regarding the re-stocking fee, having clearly illustrated Mr. Alvarinos signature agreeing to these terms for this sale.
Mr. Alvarino neglected to mention that he already fought this battle and lost, and the whole situation could have been avoided completely by adhering to our agreement.
Instead, he has chosen to take the low-road.
As he said, I did my best to remain courteous to him throughout this ordeal, and I (and everyone else here) takes customer service seriously. We are NOT however, LLBean or Nordstroms, and Mr. Alvarino was not trying to return a sweater. There are some different issues at stake when it is a custom coil-over system for a $100K Porsche 993 Twin Turbo, and I did my best to keep him happy, but that does not extend to accepting a $2800.00 box of shrapnel for a refund. He did well to even recieve a partial credit, and we now have a scratched, dented, coil-over system that will probably set on our shelves for quite some time.
Sorry for all that this did not work out, but realize that anyone, at any time, can post anything they wish and (unfortunately) people will crawl out from under rocks everywhere to become party to a good, old fashioned Rennlist flaming.
I sincerely hope you don't believe everything you read on the internet.
The Rennlist is an invaluable resource for any Porschephile, and it is too bad that it is used as a forum to spread lies and grind axes, and not for the wealth of technical information and experience that it contains.
If you need performance items for a Porsche, we will continue to go above and beyond to provide the best products, the best service, the lowest prices and the best technical support available in the industry.
As for you, Mr. Alvarino, I sincerely hope you find another purveyor with whom to build a constructive relationship that will enhance your enjoyment of owning that very special Porsche.
Thanks for your attention, and sorry for the length of this post.
Best Regards,
Dan
Windward Performance Products, Inc.
Recently, member Konrad Alvarino has blanketed the entire Rennlist with a grossly skewed tale of woe that pretty much paints Windward Performance Products, Inc. (and myself) as the "anti-christ" in the Porsche performance arena.
For those of you who do not wish to read an extremely long post (which this is) let me just say here and now that there are two sides to every story, and his does not even closely approximate the truth. He did suggest that (until I hung up on him) I had been helpful and courteous, and that is true. I will not, however, subject myself to ranting, raving, and profanity from any customer. I will hang up every time, and if you can't handle that sort of rejection, then there is no shame in therapy.
I am now going to present the truth.
This regrettable situation did not unfold at all as Mr. Alvarino suggests, and he has neglected some very important points, and lied about others.
First, let it be known that he threatened me with a serious Rennlist flaming if we did not bow to his completely unreasonable demands, and he obviously made good on his promise. Unfortunately, he has shown neither honor nor shame in his post regarding his deliberate misrepresentation of the facts.
As many in the Porsche community may remember, there was a "drought" of H&R coil-over kits in the U.S. for awhile. During this time, Mr. Alvarino wished to obtain one for his 993 Twin Turbo. Upon checking, I was able to inform him that we had one H&R coil-over #29590-2 in stock that was missing the spherical-bearing upper camber plates and rear upper shock mounts. I offered to furnish the very nice E.R.P. units in their place for no additional charge. (Our customers will be familiar with the E.R.P. line--they are arguably some of the nicest components available, and are much more expensive than their H&R counterparts.)
He not only agreed, but thanked me, stating that this was a much better alternative than waiting the 6-8 weeks that H&R was quoting to get more of these systems in from Germany.
The system was sent to him, and what ensued was a nightmare. He did not understand how to install it, and was quite indignant and upset when he found out that the car had to be re-aligned and corner balanced after the installation of the suspension! At this time, I suggested (in the nicest, friendliest manner that I could) that he may be a bit over his head on this project and should consult a local shop for installation.
He then got mad and wanted to ship it back. I agreed, based on the assumption that it was in "as-new" condition. When I received it, it was inspected and found that it was very scratched, dented, and not saleable at all, let alone as new. (He did not even do us the courtesy of using original packaging--it was simply all thrown together in a big box with no packing materials, and arrived in horrible condition, ripped, with bushings and hardware dropping out of the mutilated packaging.)
I called him, and told him that it would not be accepted. After numerous phone calls, we agreed on a compromise--I would honor the refund in the form of a store credit to be used toward another purchase, minus the money necessary to replace the missing and damaged components. He agreed.
It should also be noted (and our customers are all aware of this) that prior to shipping any order, the customer signs off on a confirmation sheet that clearly states our return policy and re-stock fees.
Unfortunately, after agreeing to this, he did a chargeback on his credit card. We have submitted all documentation to both banks, and (after extensive exchanges) both banks ruled in our favor regarding the re-stocking fee, having clearly illustrated Mr. Alvarinos signature agreeing to these terms for this sale.
Mr. Alvarino neglected to mention that he already fought this battle and lost, and the whole situation could have been avoided completely by adhering to our agreement.
Instead, he has chosen to take the low-road.
As he said, I did my best to remain courteous to him throughout this ordeal, and I (and everyone else here) takes customer service seriously. We are NOT however, LLBean or Nordstroms, and Mr. Alvarino was not trying to return a sweater. There are some different issues at stake when it is a custom coil-over system for a $100K Porsche 993 Twin Turbo, and I did my best to keep him happy, but that does not extend to accepting a $2800.00 box of shrapnel for a refund. He did well to even recieve a partial credit, and we now have a scratched, dented, coil-over system that will probably set on our shelves for quite some time.
Sorry for all that this did not work out, but realize that anyone, at any time, can post anything they wish and (unfortunately) people will crawl out from under rocks everywhere to become party to a good, old fashioned Rennlist flaming.
I sincerely hope you don't believe everything you read on the internet.
The Rennlist is an invaluable resource for any Porschephile, and it is too bad that it is used as a forum to spread lies and grind axes, and not for the wealth of technical information and experience that it contains.
If you need performance items for a Porsche, we will continue to go above and beyond to provide the best products, the best service, the lowest prices and the best technical support available in the industry.
As for you, Mr. Alvarino, I sincerely hope you find another purveyor with whom to build a constructive relationship that will enhance your enjoyment of owning that very special Porsche.
Thanks for your attention, and sorry for the length of this post.
Best Regards,
Dan
Windward Performance Products, Inc.
08-17-2001, 04:47 PM
#2
Drifting
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Yes, it is true that every story has two sides. But that does not explain why 'Slevy951', 'David J. Harrington', and 'Arthur' also expressed grave dismay towards your company. There is also this story from 'Jim (97C2S)'. It is rumored that the reason you no longer carry the Fikse line of products is because of your poor customer service.
Also, it appears to me that almost no one today realizes that communication takes 2 people. When talking to people, especially on the phone, it is very important to make sure that the other person knows what you mean. There are many ambiguities in the English language, and it is both parties responsibility to know what the other one means.
Now, with all that said, I have never heard of one of these incidents at Paragon Products. So maybe you should try to be just a little more like Paragon.
Also, it appears to me that almost no one today realizes that communication takes 2 people. When talking to people, especially on the phone, it is very important to make sure that the other person knows what you mean. There are many ambiguities in the English language, and it is both parties responsibility to know what the other one means.
Now, with all that said, I have never heard of one of these incidents at Paragon Products. So maybe you should try to be just a little more like Paragon.
08-17-2001, 05:32 PM
#3
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Ouch!
I haven't dealt with any of those companies mentioned, and will cease to pass judgement on a few individual's experiences. I've had bad experiences with those highly recommended for, and good experiences with those that are highly recommended against (not to say I wouldn't be cautious about Huntley forexample).
Anyway, I've always believed that there are 3 sides to every story.
What either side says, +what actually happened...
Ahmet
I haven't dealt with any of those companies mentioned, and will cease to pass judgement on a few individual's experiences. I've had bad experiences with those highly recommended for, and good experiences with those that are highly recommended against (not to say I wouldn't be cautious about Huntley forexample).
Anyway, I've always believed that there are 3 sides to every story.
What either side says, +what actually happened...
Ahmet
08-17-2001, 10:00 PM
#4
Everybody has to remember that their is no such thing as a store with perfect "customer service". Their will always be a customer that thinks he deserves more than he gets, but that is not always true. I work at CJ's Tire and Auto service in PA and I think it has great customer service. We usually go beyond the call of duty to make customers happy, but sometimes that isn't always possible. I guarentee you that you will never find any business that has 100% customer service. If, IF you find one, please let us all know so we can all be happy, until then their will always be at least 1 unsatisfied customer.
08-19-2001, 12:49 AM
#5
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FWIF - I have always had very good luck when dealing with Windward. I bought my Autothority MAF, FPR, and a few other parts for my 951 and former 944NA, and in each case they were always very friendly, helpful, and willing to offer their suggestions and advice.
Take it from somebody who does a great deal of negotiation with mail-order companies. You can't always gauge the level of competency of the person on the other end of the phone. If somebody orders a coil-over kit for a $100K car, you take some degree of trust in the fact that the person knows what they're doing when they get the parts. In ANY case when I'm ordering $3000 worth of parts mail-order, you can at least bet I'll save all of the packaging and instructions, and if I have problems -- the last thing I'd do is cuss out the vendor.
Lets all take a step back and breath.
Greg
Take it from somebody who does a great deal of negotiation with mail-order companies. You can't always gauge the level of competency of the person on the other end of the phone. If somebody orders a coil-over kit for a $100K car, you take some degree of trust in the fact that the person knows what they're doing when they get the parts. In ANY case when I'm ordering $3000 worth of parts mail-order, you can at least bet I'll save all of the packaging and instructions, and if I have problems -- the last thing I'd do is cuss out the vendor.
Lets all take a step back and breath.
Greg
08-19-2001, 02:02 PM
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Wow! I came back from a nice weekend out of town , and read this post. I would like to clarify a few points in Dan's email which are different from the truth:
1. I never used yelled or used profanity in my conversation with Dan. It is not my style.
2. The "offer" to send non-H&R parts was never made. The parts arrived at my house and I called Dan to clarify what I received. It was only then I found out I had differnt parts.
3. I am not a certified mechanic, but there are people on this list who can vouch for my technical abilities. I feel that I am quite capable of installing a suspension system on my own. I do work on my car because it is fun, and it is relaxing to me, not because I have to. The bit about not know the car would need an alignment? Please....
4. The parts were shipped back in original containers in the condition I received them in. The mounts shipped to me were not new, and even had evidence of rust. Can't do that in a few days. Interesting that Dan mentions that he called and told me the return was unacceptable, as this was never discussed in the multiple times I called them. I have e-mails traded with Dan making reference to the received shipment and that the $2800 credit "must have gone through, and I will fax you the credit voucher". None of this was ever done. I guess these emails were not part of the documentation they submitted to the banks....
5. There was no phone call in which store credit was discussed. I was holding off on any purchase until a full credit was received into my account, as any reasonable person would. Again, I have emails where I am asking for credit back n my AMEX dating to mid May.
6. A partial credit has been received in my account, but I am still owed the re-stocking fee. This is the first time I have asked AMEX for this, as I have NEVER had problems with suppliers. No finality to this issue at this time.
7. As for the personal insults (no Honor, shame, lies, crawl under the rocks, etc.) They will remain unanswered by me.
Guys, the purpose of my original post was to share with the list my bad experience with a parts dealer. I have nothing personal to gain from this (exept maybe to get my money back). With several choices for suppliers of parts, why should anybody risk the potential trouble associated with doing business with questionable suppliers? I for one wish I had read about Jim's experience before my purchase. I will continue to share notable experiences with the list, and I hope other people will too.
1. I never used yelled or used profanity in my conversation with Dan. It is not my style.
2. The "offer" to send non-H&R parts was never made. The parts arrived at my house and I called Dan to clarify what I received. It was only then I found out I had differnt parts.
3. I am not a certified mechanic, but there are people on this list who can vouch for my technical abilities. I feel that I am quite capable of installing a suspension system on my own. I do work on my car because it is fun, and it is relaxing to me, not because I have to. The bit about not know the car would need an alignment? Please....
4. The parts were shipped back in original containers in the condition I received them in. The mounts shipped to me were not new, and even had evidence of rust. Can't do that in a few days. Interesting that Dan mentions that he called and told me the return was unacceptable, as this was never discussed in the multiple times I called them. I have e-mails traded with Dan making reference to the received shipment and that the $2800 credit "must have gone through, and I will fax you the credit voucher". None of this was ever done. I guess these emails were not part of the documentation they submitted to the banks....
5. There was no phone call in which store credit was discussed. I was holding off on any purchase until a full credit was received into my account, as any reasonable person would. Again, I have emails where I am asking for credit back n my AMEX dating to mid May.
6. A partial credit has been received in my account, but I am still owed the re-stocking fee. This is the first time I have asked AMEX for this, as I have NEVER had problems with suppliers. No finality to this issue at this time.
7. As for the personal insults (no Honor, shame, lies, crawl under the rocks, etc.) They will remain unanswered by me.
Guys, the purpose of my original post was to share with the list my bad experience with a parts dealer. I have nothing personal to gain from this (exept maybe to get my money back). With several choices for suppliers of parts, why should anybody risk the potential trouble associated with doing business with questionable suppliers? I for one wish I had read about Jim's experience before my purchase. I will continue to share notable experiences with the list, and I hope other people will too.
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08-20-2001, 02:08 PM
#8
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This is too bad. I know of others who have had a difficult time getting returns from vendors. It is one of the pitfalls of ordering via mailorder. My experience is that your credit card company can help resolve the situation.
08-20-2001, 06:18 PM
#9
Hey Deni, I have worked retail for many years and I can assure you the customer is not always right. I would like to stomp the jackass who started that line of crap. Obviously they did not sell multi thousand dollar hardware. Most likely clothes.
I ran a high end bicycle shop in Atlanta for a few years and we had to deal with returns in a couple of frustrating ways. First was the customer who ordered and received a custom bike and after riding for a week or two began to suffer buyers remorse and wanted to return for a full refund.
Second was the customer who would buy a high end bike on close out (read no profit) and suddenly expected to be treated like G-d. They wanted free run of the store; discounts, open-ended returns and run of our service department scheduling.
But the saddest of all was the customer who bought product from a mailorder house and had no idea what they really needed or what they had actually ordered.
Regarding the latter, know what the hell you need and know what you are ordering. I do not care how much other people trust the mailorder house you are dealing with, expect that they don't know SH*T!
Develop a good relationship with a GOOD mechanic and talk to them. Attend PCA functions and tech sessions. And use this board to gather and subsequently filter information.
I ran a high end bicycle shop in Atlanta for a few years and we had to deal with returns in a couple of frustrating ways. First was the customer who ordered and received a custom bike and after riding for a week or two began to suffer buyers remorse and wanted to return for a full refund.
Second was the customer who would buy a high end bike on close out (read no profit) and suddenly expected to be treated like G-d. They wanted free run of the store; discounts, open-ended returns and run of our service department scheduling.
But the saddest of all was the customer who bought product from a mailorder house and had no idea what they really needed or what they had actually ordered.
Regarding the latter, know what the hell you need and know what you are ordering. I do not care how much other people trust the mailorder house you are dealing with, expect that they don't know SH*T!
Develop a good relationship with a GOOD mechanic and talk to them. Attend PCA functions and tech sessions. And use this board to gather and subsequently filter information.
08-21-2001, 04:25 PM
#10
I called windward just to get a price for a waste gate for my car. The person on the phone came across as if I was an annoyance. The product of the conversation is that I wont ever use windward. I had not only called to get the prices, I called to see how they would treat me if I was only looking and comparing. autoatlanta lost my bussness because of their catalouge cover, as the father of two wonderful little girls I wont support that type of thing.
08-21-2001, 08:25 PM
#11
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I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who is offended by sexist advertising in car catalogs. Who had the bright idea they could sell more automobile parts by portraying women like ******? It really angered me and I won't ever give any vendor who does that stuff my business. Ever. Morons.
Thaddeus
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08-21-2001, 09:10 PM
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I can understand Windward wanting to give their view of the story, but this posting is very unprofessional. I have never bought anything from Windward and probably never will. Suggesting, in a public forum, that a past customer needs therapy, crawled out from under a rock and has no honor does not make me want to buy anything from Windward. Windward complains about being "flamed" and people using Rennlist to grind axes, yet they do it themseleves...
08-22-2001, 12:22 AM
#13
Instructor
I also found the cover of the Automobile Atlanta catalog somewhat offensive, but that is another story. I don't agree that the customer is ALWAYS right. But they should be given the benefit of the doubt and listened to with respect, not hung up on. I have met my share of "wrong" customers in my life, and I myself have not made 100% of my customers happy. Even with as hard as I try. This is not a perfect world, people have different opinions and objectives. We all need to learn from our mistakes and move on. Don't dwell on the bad things and don't burn bridges. You never know when you may need to cross that river again. That's my opinion, yours may vary.
08-22-2001, 01:09 AM
#14
Unaffiliated
Ditto the AutoAtlanta cover. While it was HOT, I expect that cover on Penthouse and not a car parts outfit. They probably can get away with that hocking GM or Ford parts, but I doubt most of us Porsche folks are drawn by it. No class..
As Ahm said, There are THREE sides to every story, and it would suck to be windward if their story was closer to the truth. At this point, they can't win and probably just lost a big chunk of customers. If the sales folks aren't that helpful, they don't deserve our business in the first place. BUT, the boss may be A1 and have a slacker with a 'tude answering phones. Sorry about the misc. ramblings, boycott the Auto Atlanta pigs.
As Ahm said, There are THREE sides to every story, and it would suck to be windward if their story was closer to the truth. At this point, they can't win and probably just lost a big chunk of customers. If the sales folks aren't that helpful, they don't deserve our business in the first place. BUT, the boss may be A1 and have a slacker with a 'tude answering phones. Sorry about the misc. ramblings, boycott the Auto Atlanta pigs.
