choosing the right Porsche 944 for fun, daily-driving, or hard-core "restore..."
01-24-2011, 01:16 PM
#61
I knew this was going to be an LS conversion thread before I even opened it, but it was COMPLETELY saved for me by Van's post. Let's look at it again, to remember everything that's right in the world:
Thanks, Van.
Thanks, Van.
01-24-2011, 02:21 PM
#62
Back to the original topic... 
I agree with what several others have said here - most buyers aren't aware that the repair and ownership costs don't line up with the low purchase price. They get excited that they can buy a Porsche for under $10k and jump at the chance - and then crap their pants when they find out a timing belt job done by a reputable mechanic at the recommended 30k interval costs $1200. Even if doing the labor yourself, these cars can be pretty expensive to maintain. Remember these cars sold for $30k+ back in the mid-late 1980s. That translates to $60k+ in today's dollars. And maintaining an out-of-warranty $60k+ car isn't cheap.
I bought mine for $11k ~2 years ago and a lot of the usual maintenance was already done, plus some suspension upgrades. Even then, it's needed a few things here and there (well, some unnecessary but stuff I wanted to do to improve the car - crack free dash, updated black carpet, etc.) The car was pretty well maintained by the previous owner (blank check cut to local Porsche specialist - "do whatever it takes to keep it reliable.") Even then, late fall last year it developed an RMS leak, and it's now due for another timing belt/water pump job. I could just do the RMS and TB/WP but with the effort required, I'm just going to pull the motor and tackle a lot of "while you're in there" projects. I have a new turbo sitting on the shelf I'll put in, going to do a full reseal job, might as well put new rod bearings in it and make sure the oil pan is baffled, etc. While not *necessary*, it most likely will be soon and I might as well do it while I have the time and motivation. It definitely requires some passion and love for the cars to put up with this - as to most, the 944 is just another 80s sports car.
For a few bucks over what I spent to purchase my 951, I could have found a 911SC in decent shape, or an early Boxster. And initially a 911 is what I set out for. But every 911 and 993 I've driven, I just haven't really liked. I love looking at them. I love sitting in them. But driving them has left me feeling a little "meh." Yet when I drove my buddy's 944 Turbo for the first time, I immediately felt comfortable, "at home", with a "THIS is more like it" feeling. I always had a soft spot for the 944 growing up - I love the fat fenders, and I love the short + wide proportions. Can't really explain it better than that.
With the money and effort I'm putting into mine, it's gonna be mine for a long time. If I were to get another Porsche, it'd most likely be a Boxster or Cayman - and it'd be in addition to my 951. I drove a Boxster Spyder at Parade and while it's not a very fun car to LOOK at, I *loved* the driving experience. With the 951 - I love both the looks AND the driving experience.
I agree with what several others have said here - most buyers aren't aware that the repair and ownership costs don't line up with the low purchase price. They get excited that they can buy a Porsche for under $10k and jump at the chance - and then crap their pants when they find out a timing belt job done by a reputable mechanic at the recommended 30k interval costs $1200. Even if doing the labor yourself, these cars can be pretty expensive to maintain. Remember these cars sold for $30k+ back in the mid-late 1980s. That translates to $60k+ in today's dollars. And maintaining an out-of-warranty $60k+ car isn't cheap.
I bought mine for $11k ~2 years ago and a lot of the usual maintenance was already done, plus some suspension upgrades. Even then, it's needed a few things here and there (well, some unnecessary but stuff I wanted to do to improve the car - crack free dash, updated black carpet, etc.) The car was pretty well maintained by the previous owner (blank check cut to local Porsche specialist - "do whatever it takes to keep it reliable.") Even then, late fall last year it developed an RMS leak, and it's now due for another timing belt/water pump job. I could just do the RMS and TB/WP but with the effort required, I'm just going to pull the motor and tackle a lot of "while you're in there" projects. I have a new turbo sitting on the shelf I'll put in, going to do a full reseal job, might as well put new rod bearings in it and make sure the oil pan is baffled, etc. While not *necessary*, it most likely will be soon and I might as well do it while I have the time and motivation. It definitely requires some passion and love for the cars to put up with this - as to most, the 944 is just another 80s sports car.
For a few bucks over what I spent to purchase my 951, I could have found a 911SC in decent shape, or an early Boxster. And initially a 911 is what I set out for. But every 911 and 993 I've driven, I just haven't really liked. I love looking at them. I love sitting in them. But driving them has left me feeling a little "meh." Yet when I drove my buddy's 944 Turbo for the first time, I immediately felt comfortable, "at home", with a "THIS is more like it" feeling. I always had a soft spot for the 944 growing up - I love the fat fenders, and I love the short + wide proportions. Can't really explain it better than that.
With the money and effort I'm putting into mine, it's gonna be mine for a long time. If I were to get another Porsche, it'd most likely be a Boxster or Cayman - and it'd be in addition to my 951. I drove a Boxster Spyder at Parade and while it's not a very fun car to LOOK at, I *loved* the driving experience. With the 951 - I love both the looks AND the driving experience.
01-24-2011, 02:40 PM
#64
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imagine waking up and your first thought *(before) kissing your supermodel wife is "that thing" is sitting in your garage.
..... a lot of the usual maintenance was already done, plus some suspension upgrades. Even then, it's needed a few things here and there (well, some unnecessary but stuff I wanted to do to improve the car - crack free dash, updated black carpet, etc.) The car was pretty well maintained by the previous owner (blank check cut to local Porsche specialist - "do whatever it takes to keep it reliable.")
Even then, late fall last year it developed an RMS leak, and it's now due for another timing belt/water pump job. I could just do the RMS and TB/WP but with the effort required, I'm just going to pull the motor and tackle a lot of "while you're in there" projects. I have a new turbo sitting on the shelf I'll put in, going to do a full reseal job, might as well put new rod bearings in it and make sure the oil pan is baffled, etc. While not *necessary*, it most likely will be soon and I might as well do it while I have the time and motivation. It definitely requires some passion and love for the cars to put up with this - as to most, the 944 is just another 80s sports car.
.... I drove my buddy's 944 Turbo for the first time, I immediately felt comfortable, "at home", with a "THIS is more like it" feeling. I always had a soft spot for the 944 growing up - I love the fat fenders, and I love the short + wide proportions. Can't really explain it better than that.
With the money and effort I'm putting into mine, it's gonna be mine for a long time. If I were to get another Porsche, it'd most likely be a Boxster or Cayman - and it'd be in addition to my 951. I drove a Boxster Spyder at Parade and while it's not a very fun car to LOOK at, I *loved* the driving experience.....
best post i've read in a long time.
surely, one of the best single posts that any potential 924/944/951/S2/968 buyer could ever hope to read....
..... a lot of the usual maintenance was already done, plus some suspension upgrades. Even then, it's needed a few things here and there (well, some unnecessary but stuff I wanted to do to improve the car - crack free dash, updated black carpet, etc.) The car was pretty well maintained by the previous owner (blank check cut to local Porsche specialist - "do whatever it takes to keep it reliable.")
Even then, late fall last year it developed an RMS leak, and it's now due for another timing belt/water pump job. I could just do the RMS and TB/WP but with the effort required, I'm just going to pull the motor and tackle a lot of "while you're in there" projects. I have a new turbo sitting on the shelf I'll put in, going to do a full reseal job, might as well put new rod bearings in it and make sure the oil pan is baffled, etc. While not *necessary*, it most likely will be soon and I might as well do it while I have the time and motivation. It definitely requires some passion and love for the cars to put up with this - as to most, the 944 is just another 80s sports car.
.... I drove my buddy's 944 Turbo for the first time, I immediately felt comfortable, "at home", with a "THIS is more like it" feeling. I always had a soft spot for the 944 growing up - I love the fat fenders, and I love the short + wide proportions. Can't really explain it better than that.
With the money and effort I'm putting into mine, it's gonna be mine for a long time. If I were to get another Porsche, it'd most likely be a Boxster or Cayman - and it'd be in addition to my 951. I drove a Boxster Spyder at Parade and while it's not a very fun car to LOOK at, I *loved* the driving experience.....
best post i've read in a long time.
surely, one of the best single posts that any potential 924/944/951/S2/968 buyer could ever hope to read....
01-24-2011, 02:44 PM
#65
Burning Brakes
Well, great. Put an LS1 in everything.
Since you're on the subject of a swap being the cure-all for 944 money issues, where all an owner has to do is drop one in and save a bundle, please explain how an LS1 takes care of these "rare and cheap" 944 problems:
aluminum control arm ball joints
power steering leaks
air conditioning failures
transmission synchros
torque tube bearings
wiring harness failures
dash cracks
dim gauge lights
chassis integrity on a 200+k mile car
interior condition on same 200+k mile car
stripped sunroof gears
CV joints
weather seals
clutch/TO bearing failures
engine mounts
suspension wear
and on and on and on and on and on
In the grand scheme of things, owning a car for a LONG time, say 10 years, at 12,000 miles a year, how much are you ACTUALLY saving? How much does a swap cost? 6 grand with a used engine? Let's use a 944 NA as an example so we don't get the benefit of anyone actually wanting the motor. Buy a rebuilt engine from Lindsey and it'll set you back $3155 and it comes with a warranty! It BETTER last 120k miles! Do all of the "little things" like cleaning the fuel injectors, resealing the throttle body, etc, and add in-for the hell of it-$600 in parts. ANY other parts you add to this engine, you'd be adding to an LS1, so it's a total wash.
Let's say you're smart enough to do your own maintenance, and we'll assume that an LS1 never, ever needs service. Let's do four belt services, just to be ****. At 30k miles, with all new parts, it's time for belts only. At 60k, we'll do a water pump, and inspect the rollers. At 90k, we'll do the belts and rollers, and at 120k we'll do another water pump.
$200 in belts
$350 in water pumps
$200 in rollers
=750 in maintenance
That's $4500 for 10 years' worth of driving with a fresh engine and 944 SPECIFIC engine maintenance. Every other item (assuming you don't break MORE stuff with twice the power) requires the same care.
Now start with a car with 120k on the clock, and just refresh the head and do a major service. I did this with my 944S, replacing 8 valves in the process, and I was out $1900 total. That would take my 10 year cost down to around $2800. And, since my car ran 161k miles before I took it apart (for the first time in its life) we can assume the engines are a little hardier than you give them credit.
Moral of this long rant: An LS1 in a 944 isn't a DIME cheaper than running a 944 engine.
Since you're on the subject of a swap being the cure-all for 944 money issues, where all an owner has to do is drop one in and save a bundle, please explain how an LS1 takes care of these "rare and cheap" 944 problems:
aluminum control arm ball joints
power steering leaks
air conditioning failures
transmission synchros
torque tube bearings
wiring harness failures
dash cracks
dim gauge lights
chassis integrity on a 200+k mile car
interior condition on same 200+k mile car
stripped sunroof gears
CV joints
weather seals
clutch/TO bearing failures
engine mounts
suspension wear
and on and on and on and on and on
In the grand scheme of things, owning a car for a LONG time, say 10 years, at 12,000 miles a year, how much are you ACTUALLY saving? How much does a swap cost? 6 grand with a used engine? Let's use a 944 NA as an example so we don't get the benefit of anyone actually wanting the motor. Buy a rebuilt engine from Lindsey and it'll set you back $3155 and it comes with a warranty! It BETTER last 120k miles! Do all of the "little things" like cleaning the fuel injectors, resealing the throttle body, etc, and add in-for the hell of it-$600 in parts. ANY other parts you add to this engine, you'd be adding to an LS1, so it's a total wash.
Let's say you're smart enough to do your own maintenance, and we'll assume that an LS1 never, ever needs service. Let's do four belt services, just to be ****. At 30k miles, with all new parts, it's time for belts only. At 60k, we'll do a water pump, and inspect the rollers. At 90k, we'll do the belts and rollers, and at 120k we'll do another water pump.
$200 in belts
$350 in water pumps
$200 in rollers
=750 in maintenance
That's $4500 for 10 years' worth of driving with a fresh engine and 944 SPECIFIC engine maintenance. Every other item (assuming you don't break MORE stuff with twice the power) requires the same care.
Now start with a car with 120k on the clock, and just refresh the head and do a major service. I did this with my 944S, replacing 8 valves in the process, and I was out $1900 total. That would take my 10 year cost down to around $2800. And, since my car ran 161k miles before I took it apart (for the first time in its life) we can assume the engines are a little hardier than you give them credit.
Moral of this long rant: An LS1 in a 944 isn't a DIME cheaper than running a 944 engine.
thats how far small block Chrysler, Ford and Chevy engines go with modern internals and lubricants driving properly geared, 2,800 pound cars.... at 2,700 rpm... take a typical Ford pickup w/ curb weights of 4685, 5095, up to 5335 pounds. considering these 4-bolt engines are designed to haul around those kinds of payloads, for up to 200,000 miles with proper care, going several hundred thousand miles hauling around a little 944 is what you'd probably see with normal driving..
01-24-2011, 02:51 PM
#66
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with the 944 and 968, nobody outside of the Porsche community gives a **** about what we do or how we "get there."
i don't think there is a completely "right or wrong" answer, once a proper v8 is installed (just kidding).
the previous owner of my 968 drove the car for 13 years and 76,800 miles and spent $12,600 on routine service and repairs. he was 65 years old at purchase, didn't abuse the car, and got everything done as needed including 2 sets of belts....
for myself, (including installing bigger front brake discs once the old front pads were dead, and the discs were about 1/3 of the way worn, and not counting the cost of the new, "big Blacks" calipers), i think i've spent about $4,500 on additional, normal, scheduled service to the car, and zero unscheduled repairs. (the previous owner had several, including ac condensor, radiator, ps pump and oil cooler failures)....
the car now has 132,000 miles., so, i've driven it about 55 thousand miles. i upgraded the wheels, tires, brakes, added a freer flowing exhaust, did some interior upgrades and installed a decent sound system... then i changed out the caster blocks and sway bar bushings. the has spectacular handling and braking, and the engine has good power... it's been a 110 % positive ownership experience.
but i've also had a long term goal of adding more power under the hood..... one of the points i had made is that an LS1 might be see 40~50 % of the abuse it was designed for.... (remember that forces put on the engine's main bearings are "squared" against incremental increases of weight of the cars being pulled.... (the Texas DPS ran the LS1 Camaros for many years).... i sincererly believe that once performed a swap would be a very cost-effective way to enjoy one of our cars for many years.
there is a significant up-front cost, but so is there also when doing a turbo project. surely the two are on the same order of cost... (i'm being generious to the 951/968 turbo)..... i think the 944s and '68s are semi-exotic, middle-of-the-road, in terms of $$$$ in/performance out cars.... there's no public out there grading us either, which i think, either way is a plus.
in the end, i think everyone's interpretation of the 944/968 is a personal choice, but i believe a smooth-running, v8 with a stock cam and quiet exhaust, is a solid "win" in terms of awesome performance in the mid-rpm ranges, and the potential for reasonably-priced, long-term enjoyment.
if he doesn't drive this car like an ***, the next 25 years could be pretty good...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VG9uc...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru3XbwhauL4
.
i don't think there is a completely "right or wrong" answer, once a proper v8 is installed (just kidding).
the previous owner of my 968 drove the car for 13 years and 76,800 miles and spent $12,600 on routine service and repairs. he was 65 years old at purchase, didn't abuse the car, and got everything done as needed including 2 sets of belts....
for myself, (including installing bigger front brake discs once the old front pads were dead, and the discs were about 1/3 of the way worn, and not counting the cost of the new, "big Blacks" calipers), i think i've spent about $4,500 on additional, normal, scheduled service to the car, and zero unscheduled repairs. (the previous owner had several, including ac condensor, radiator, ps pump and oil cooler failures)....
the car now has 132,000 miles., so, i've driven it about 55 thousand miles. i upgraded the wheels, tires, brakes, added a freer flowing exhaust, did some interior upgrades and installed a decent sound system... then i changed out the caster blocks and sway bar bushings. the has spectacular handling and braking, and the engine has good power... it's been a 110 % positive ownership experience.
but i've also had a long term goal of adding more power under the hood..... one of the points i had made is that an LS1 might be see 40~50 % of the abuse it was designed for.... (remember that forces put on the engine's main bearings are "squared" against incremental increases of weight of the cars being pulled.... (the Texas DPS ran the LS1 Camaros for many years).... i sincererly believe that once performed a swap would be a very cost-effective way to enjoy one of our cars for many years.
there is a significant up-front cost, but so is there also when doing a turbo project. surely the two are on the same order of cost... (i'm being generious to the 951/968 turbo)..... i think the 944s and '68s are semi-exotic, middle-of-the-road, in terms of $$$$ in/performance out cars.... there's no public out there grading us either, which i think, either way is a plus.
in the end, i think everyone's interpretation of the 944/968 is a personal choice, but i believe a smooth-running, v8 with a stock cam and quiet exhaust, is a solid "win" in terms of awesome performance in the mid-rpm ranges, and the potential for reasonably-priced, long-term enjoyment.
if he doesn't drive this car like an ***, the next 25 years could be pretty good...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VG9uc...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru3XbwhauL4
.
Last edited by odurandina; 01-24-2011 at 04:36 PM.
01-24-2011, 04:37 PM
#68
Burning Brakes
Do you like to get dirty? Can you follow instructions and fix it when it breaks? Do you have a decently complete set of standard tools?
If you've answered "no" to ANY of those questions, the 944 (or any car older than 10 years) is the wrong car for you.
Not being mean, just saying...you'll have triple the car's value in bills with a couple services if you pay someone else. That goes for damn near anything old from a Cavalier to a Testarossa, and not just a 944... My uncle has a '93 Escort with 85,000 miles that he dumps better than 2k a year into because he can't fix anything.
01-24-2011, 04:55 PM
#69
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01-24-2011, 05:52 PM
#70
Do you like to get dirty? Can you follow instructions and fix it when it breaks? Do you have a decently complete set of standard tools?
If you've answered "no" to ANY of those questions, the 944 (or any car older than 10 years) is the wrong car for you.
Not being mean, just saying...you'll have triple the car's value in bills with a couple services if you pay someone else. That goes for damn near anything old from a Cavalier to a Testarossa, and not just a 944... My uncle has a '93 Escort with 85,000 miles that he dumps better than 2k a year into because he can't fix anything.
If you've answered "no" to ANY of those questions, the 944 (or any car older than 10 years) is the wrong car for you.
Not being mean, just saying...you'll have triple the car's value in bills with a couple services if you pay someone else. That goes for damn near anything old from a Cavalier to a Testarossa, and not just a 944... My uncle has a '93 Escort with 85,000 miles that he dumps better than 2k a year into because he can't fix anything.
These cars aren't terribly complicated - they *are* from the 1980s afterall. But they do require fairly regular TLC to stay running. Don't buy one expecting Toyota Corolla "put gas and oil in it" reliability here. Even if they were that way when new (which they weren't), 20-25 year old (or older) cars have stuff fail for no reason other than it's old, be it a Porsche, a Chevy, or a Toyota. Plastic connectors get brittle over time from too many heat cycles, wiring harnesses fall apart, etc. Old cars don't need an excuse (i.e. physically broken part) or need to give off symptoms of impending failure to break down. They can be happy today and dead in the water tomorrow.
So they are fixable by the average guy with some common sense, a good set of tools, and internet access to Rennlist and Clark's Garage. Just takes some patience, that's all. Well - that, and another car to drive when the 944 breaks.
Don't intend to be discouraging... just want to paint a realistic picture. Seen too many cars fall apart because the owner got in over their head, tried to rig or band-aid the car, which just causes more problems, makes the situation worse, etc.
01-24-2011, 06:01 PM
#71
The few jobs that I have done on my car were pretty straight forward. Nothing complicated. It just took some time and patience. I haven't spent a whole lot in parts either. A new DME relay is the only part I've actually replaced that went bad. I finished cleaning up the grounds this morning. That made a big difference. I've been doing interior work because the car is pretty solid mechanically right now. Put a new momo steering wheel on and ordered a seat upholstery kit yesterday.
01-24-2011, 06:06 PM
#72
Burning Brakes
01-24-2011, 06:24 PM
#73
I had a friend in high school who drove a busted *** Buick that smoked like crazy. It was so old, if he would have blown a radiator hose the car would have been totaled.
01-24-2011, 06:24 PM
#74
Cruisin'
Do you like to get dirty? Can you follow instructions and fix it when it breaks? Do you have a decently complete set of standard tools?
If you've answered "no" to ANY of those questions, the 944 (or any car older than 10 years) is the wrong car for you.
Not being mean, just saying...you'll have triple the car's value in bills with a couple services if you pay someone else. That goes for damn near anything old from a Cavalier to a Testarossa, and not just a 944... My uncle has a '93 Escort with 85,000 miles that he dumps better than 2k a year into because he can't fix anything.
If you've answered "no" to ANY of those questions, the 944 (or any car older than 10 years) is the wrong car for you.
Not being mean, just saying...you'll have triple the car's value in bills with a couple services if you pay someone else. That goes for damn near anything old from a Cavalier to a Testarossa, and not just a 944... My uncle has a '93 Escort with 85,000 miles that he dumps better than 2k a year into because he can't fix anything.
01-24-2011, 06:28 PM
#75
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Durham Region/GTA East, Canada
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These cars aren't terribly complicated - they *are* from the 1980s afterall. But they do require fairly regular TLC to stay running. Don't buy one expecting Toyota Corolla "put gas and oil in it" reliability here. Even if they were that way when new (which they weren't), 20-25 year old (or older) cars have stuff fail for no reason other than it's old, be it a Porsche, a Chevy, or a Toyota. Plastic connectors get brittle over time from too many heat cycles, wiring harnesses fall apart, etc. Old cars don't need an excuse (i.e. physically broken part) or need to give off symptoms of impending failure to break down. They can be happy today and dead in the water tomorrow.
Just takes some patience, that's all. Well - that, and another car to drive when the 944 breaks.
Just takes some patience, that's all. Well - that, and another car to drive when the 944 breaks.
Buy one because you like the car...and have a decent daily driver (I do) It takes away all the stress and urgency to get it fixed when you don't need it the next day.