squzzy

so, i was planning on going to a de event down here in phoenix, at the firebird main track. i was all pyched about going, and i wa talking to my boss about it. hes been wrenching on porsches for a whole bunch of years professionally, and i always value his opnion. he is always looking out for me and trying to save me money, but sometimes is a bit too cautious, i think anyway. he didnt tell me i should or should not go, but he said something that bothered me a bit. "dont go to the track if you cant aford to leave your car there is peices." his words...

so i guess my question is, how many of you guys have seen somebody wipe out at a de. i know people get a bit overzealous sometimes, but its also under the supervision of instructors and such. i still dont think its a big deal, but i dont want to be wrong at the track! i would never go racing with the car i have to use everyday, but i think DEs are a bit different.

i really want to go, and i need to get the first time at the track thing out of my system. but i really want to keep my car. there is always the possibility of bending my car up, but i think it would be no more risky than aggressive driving on the street.

thanks for your help guys
take care
brian

Dales944

Go to the DE! Don't let your boss scare you. They have instructional class before you ever hit the track. Plus, since it's your first time, you'll be in the car with an instructor. Usually, it's the guys who've done a couple of DE's and no longer ride with an elder who wind up letting off the gas and spinning into the green (or worse). Others have mentioned this (a guy who go's by Z-man to be specific) - track events are ADDICTIVE!!! First, you'll cover the cost of the event. Then, you'll be looking for track tires. Then, you'll be setting up a harness. Then, you'll be looking for a cage. Not to mention all the money you'll dump into your suspension. Oh, and then the engine mods...

All in all - DO IT! You won't regret it.

P.S. Most of the guys who wind up off the track still don't have any damage to their cars (at least the ones I've seen). So, even if you do get overzealous, make sure it's in an open field!

eclou

He's right to some extent. Unless your car is well maintained it is highly likely you could suffer a mechanical failure (or accident as a result of a failure) at the track, especially in a 15-20yr old car. Last DE in May I witnessed a 951 have the engine blow-up, another 951 blow the tranny, a 996TT ram into a 951 (totalled both), and a E46M3 blow up its motor. All in one weekend! While that was unusual, more often people will blow a head gasket, fry a clutch, etc.

That being said, I am no longer going to track my 97 M3 and am prepping my 86 951 for track duty. I plan to tow it there, so I don't ever get stranded by some misfortune. I would kill myself if I ever wrecked my M3, and I have less attachment to the 951 (but it's growing!).

Track events are very addictive. Don't ever count on just going once. It is also a very expensive proposition. $200-400 for fees, $600-1300 for tires, hotel room, vehicle maintenance, helmet, gloves, etc. It is not like frisbee golf (or real golf for that matter) in terms of expense.

Eugene

squzzy

*breathes sigh of relief

i thought he was being too cautious, but better to make sure. anyway, thanks, and i will be going damn it

take care
brian

Geo

The real question is how much personal discipline do you have?

I've driven half way across the country to drive my car in a DE with little fear. But, I know I'm not out there to prove anything to anyone, including myself. If you cannot make yourself back off a bit, then you have to worry.

My philosophy is that if you cannot hit your marks (turn in, apex, track out) for two corners in a row, you're probably going too fast. Always hit your marks even if you think you're going slow. The minute you start missing your marks is the time you are in trouble of a big problem. If you remember this, you will be fine.

Mike S.

Brian,

I did 2 this year. This may sound a bit fatherly, but the answer to this question lies mostly in your attitude. If you approach the event with a sincere desire that you're a student who's humble, isn't skilled at high speed driving, and will listen to your instructor, then you should go. If you think you're Schumacher, have a know-it-all attitude, and an overly aggressive disposition, stay home as you may indeed bury your car into some Armco.

Focus on being smooth and focus on what you're doing. Get the basics down...drive looking ahead, the correct line, etc. Your speed will come.

Ride with your instructor in his group if you think you're good...then you'll find out you're not...good way to get a dose of humility!

In the 2 PCA sponsored events I attended with about 150 cars per event, we only had on case of damage where had a 912 in the white (intermediate) group go off sideways and flop on it's side.

The only thing I came upon while I was out was on my first run signed off to go out solo. I was perhaps 500 feet behind another fella who just got signed off and he spun toward the inside of a blind apex turn. While I was getting ready to turn in, I saw him up ahead sideways and I had time to make sure I was able to go off line. So looking where you want to go (as opposed to where you are) is a habit you want.

Lastly, if you want to minimize that chance of someone taking you out, pit in when traffic bunches up real bad.

Have a great time!

Mike

P.S. And by the way, aggressive street driving (i.e. racing others, risk taking, using traffic as slalom pylons) is way more dangerous...especially to others not involved. One you get a taste of the track, you'll hopefully find aggressive street driving passe. I think it's time for Z-man (Zoltan) to chime in on this topic!

Mike S.

[quote]Originally posted by Geo:
<strong>My philosophy is that if you cannot hit your marks (turn in, apex, track out) for two corners in a row, you're probably going too fast. Always hit your marks even if you think you're going slow. The minute you start missing your marks is the time you are in trouble of a big problem. If you remember this, you will be fine.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Brian...this is wisdom boiled down to a simple recipe...I'm gonna remember this one. Thanks George.

Mike

P.S. George...I of course will quote you as the source when I repeat this to others!

David Floyd

Go , listen to your instructors, have fun and it will be fine, BUT things can happen. On my 2'nd DE last year I DISTROYED an engine (dropped a valve,broke a rod and big holes in the block)

Now after 9 months of spending bucks rebuilding into a 2.8, I will be going back to the track.

So it can happen, but more often than not, you will have loads of fun and no harm to your car.

<img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" /> <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />

User 41221

All good advice here... listen to them. Main thing is that things can and do go wrong with 15 year old cars when they are driven, whether on the street or on the track. If you can deal with that, and you can listen to your instructor (and I mean REALLY listen to him... they really do know things that you don't!), you will be fine, except for the addiction to DE's that will result.

Most of the DE problems in the KC area seem to be either the 911 mid level drivers smacking the rear of their cars into the wall when they lose it in a turn, or the 951 guys blowing their head gaskets... plenty of 951's go off track too, but for some reason, they generally just spin and stop without serious incident. Nothing like a nicely balanced car!

Go and have fun!

Regards, ...Scott

squzzy

thanks for the advise guys, it all sound pretty reasonable. i want to race, but i dont have the skill right now. thats ok, baby steps... im eighteen and have a long ime before i can even finance anything close to real race car. so might as well start driving. as it stands the limits of my car are about two and ahalf light years ahead of mine. hopefully i will learn a lot while im there. my stomach is tingling. now i really cant wait...

take it easy
brian

Doug Donsbach

The proper advice is "don't *race* your car if you can't afford to leave it there is pieces". If you follow your instructor's directions, you'll put your car at less risk on the track than you will driving there.

Tabor

[quote]Originally posted by squzzy:
<strong>"dont go to the track if you cant aford to leave your car there is peices." his words...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Don't take your car out of the garage if you can't afford to leave it somewhere in pieces.

Dave in Chicago

All good advice above. I've been to 30+ DE days in the last 2.5 years and have only taken to the grass once. You can do this safely. All the PCA DE's I've been to were well run, well staffed, and well instructed. I have seen cars destroyed at the track. It's pretty simple math. Fast Cars + Drivers With Variety of Skill/Ego = Occasional Wreck. Most damage has occured at very high speed tracks like Road America.

You will greatly increase your odds by:
1) Car prep - Go over it like your life depends on it - it does
2) Driving within your comfort zone - there will always be other drivers that are faster/braver/more foolish (you pick) - stay in your personal zone, not there's
3) Follow instruction and ask for more - you learn something new every time
4) Keep a keen eye out for situations that develop on the track ahead of you - these include other folks spinning ahead of you, corner workers waving the debris flag, and shiny scary fluids dropped by others - anticipation is the name of the game and erroring on the side of safety is the only way to keep the shiny side up

You sound like you have a very sensible attitude to DE. That's probably the best asset you can bring to the track.

Best of Luck,

Brent 89-GT

Brian,

I have done about as much as Dave above. I also have only hit the grass once, no damage. It is a pretty safe venue if you keep your head.

As far as being able to afford a "real" race car, that 944 will surprise you. You already own more of a race car than you know

Z-man

There are basically two kinds of 'failures' on the track:
1. Mechanical: engine, brakes, clutch, H2O pump..etc. For the most part, these can be avoidable with proper maintenance. Only you know how well your car is maintained: if everything's in order, you should be able to run on the track without any worries.

2. Driver: some driver's think they can drive faster than they really can. Others take their emotions like anger with them on the track. Still others just have "brain farts" and do the wrong thing at the wrong time.

Of course there are other causes of accidents at tracks, but you can work on both #1 and #2 above: it's up to you to keep your car mechanically sound, and it's up to you to keep your emotions in check, and to know your limits. Based on your original question, it seems that you have a level head, so I don't think you'll have trouble.

That said, your mechanic does have some truth to what he says: after all, you are driving your car near it's limits and at high speeds. There is always the possibility of damaging your car. The best way to prevent it is to know your limits and drive within them.

Just my $0.42
-Zoltan.

PS: See you at the track!