H#ĪLL! Driving licence suspended all summer!
04-30-2003, 11:37 AM
#61
Race Director
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Jamie Parkinson:
<strong>And luis your right they idiots do sit in the overtakin lane over here irrelative of the speed they are doing.... bugs the *** off me!
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Hehe, I used to drive from Birmingham to Stansted Airport - saved a little more than an hour passing in the slow lane. Fast lane hogging in the UK is the worst I've ever seen, I wonder how long those drivers would survive on the Autobahn.
<strong>And luis your right they idiots do sit in the overtakin lane over here irrelative of the speed they are doing.... bugs the *** off me!
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Hehe, I used to drive from Birmingham to Stansted Airport - saved a little more than an hour passing in the slow lane. Fast lane hogging in the UK is the worst I've ever seen, I wonder how long those drivers would survive on the Autobahn.
04-30-2003, 11:53 AM
#62
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all of two seconds before some bimmer driver got seriously pissed off with the and gestured appropriately!!!! used that method myself reguarly and your right save a hell of a lot of time and also saves gas!!! your right though the drivers on the continent are sooo much better and safer than in the uk!!
jamie
jamie
04-30-2003, 11:56 AM
#63
Race Director
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Jamie Parkinson:
<strong>all of two seconds before some bimmer driver got seriously pissed off with the and gestured appropriately!!!! used that method myself reguarly and your right save a hell of a lot of time and also saves gas!!! your right though the drivers on the continent are sooo much better and safer than in the uk!!
jamie</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Yep, and we drive on the right side of the road (while you guys keep on the left)..
<strong>all of two seconds before some bimmer driver got seriously pissed off with the and gestured appropriately!!!! used that method myself reguarly and your right save a hell of a lot of time and also saves gas!!! your right though the drivers on the continent are sooo much better and safer than in the uk!!
jamie</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Yep, and we drive on the right side of the road (while you guys keep on the left)..
04-30-2003, 12:12 PM
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just a minor detail!!! two summers ago me and my dad brought the 924s which we recently sold over to germany to visit some friends. The difference in the driving was amazing we could sit at 110-115 mph all day with no danger because all the other drivers were payin attention (prob cause most of them were doin bout 100 Irrespective of the car even if its a 1.2 renault clio!!) The point is though its safer to drive fast on the continent
04-30-2003, 01:22 PM
#65
Race Director
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Duke:
<strong>What makes "reckless driving" to me is not X or Y km/h above the limit. It is all about the circumstances. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Yes, the circumstances are very important. Your specific circumstances were: you were doing 200kph in a 90kph zone. That, IMHO, constitutes reckeless driving. Why? a few reasons:
1. The engineers who designed that stretch of highway deemed 90kph as the maximum allowable speed: there was a reason for that. (Government laws, the surrounding land, the traffic in that area, the length of the straights, the change in elevation...etc) Now, unless you have an engineering degree, and have field experience with setting safe speed limits on highways, I trust the people to determined the proper speed limit vs. your opinion.
2. Ok, if you want to toss out the first argument, then consider this: there is no guarantee that no one else would be on the stretch of road you were doing 200kph on! As a matter of fact, there WAS someone else: namely, the police officer who pulled you over! How do you think he got there? (see point #3
3. Most roads are not perfectly straight: all it takes is a small kink (bend) in the road to not see sufficiently ahead, and not notice a slower moving car that can be potentially in your way. As speed increases, stopping distances increase expontentially. By the time you see a car that was hiding behind such a turn, it's too late. (That's probably how the police got you: he was hiding somewhere!)
4. You mention animal fences on either side of the road: that means there is a possiblity of a broken fence, or some animal getting on the road.
5. The solid barrier you mention can literally launch you over to the other side. Higher speeds equals greater probability of this happening.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Duke again:<strong>
With your arguments it is correct of me to assume you also think everyone travelling on the German Autobahn is reckless drivers? Since most of the drivers there not only goes around 200 km/h but also keeps minimum distance to the car in front.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">No, I am not saying that: I never implied that. The highways with 200kph speed limits and higher are designed to handle cars travelling that fast. The lanes are typically wider, the markers bigger, the barriers are stronger...etc. And most importantly: the drivers on such highways are expecting people to be travelling at those speeds.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Duke again:<strong>
Regarding the track versus road comparision: I'm afraid this conversation can go on for a long time if we get it started, but I will give you a quick answer.
Imagine a rainy day at the track. The track is pretty crowdy. The track has a straight section of about 500 meters. Driver A has quite worn P-Zero Cup's but as usual and like the rest - he gives it the bone and is rushing at the end of the straight section, which is abruptly ended by a sharp turn, at a speed of 194 km/h. Driver A really thinks he's an experienced driver on the track and want's to cut his lap times. So there he is, on a crowded track, not the best rain tires, and is rushing at a sharp turn - while he is trying the master the art of "brake as late as possible"... No need to go on.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Nice story, but hardly imaginable. First, 99% of corners on race tracks where this can happen have run off areas (often paved) where a driver who 'over-cooked' the turn can bail out and safely slow down. Third, in racing, when it rains, drivers will run with rain tires. Secondly, in races in the rain, drivers will not be running at 10/10ths: that's just stupid. Drivers know this. Yes, incidents can occur: often people think they have more traction, and sometimes they go beyond the limits. And crashes do occur.
HOWEVER: there are certain factors that are present on the track that is NOT present on public roads. Namely:
1. Flaggers around the track will give the drivers status of what the track conditions are (if there's an accident, a yellow or red flag will be waved, for example). Flaggers are stationed at key spots: typically before blind corners and they are in radio communication. There is no such thing as this on the roads.
2. All of the drivers are typically going in the same direction: there's no opposing traffic to worry about.
3. Animals & innocent bystanders are eliminated.
4. As with the 200kph highways, people are expecting cars to be driven fast.
5. Driver on the track are required to have various forms of safety equipment, including: helmets, fire extinguishers, harnesses, roll-bars...etc. So if an accident does occur, the safety devices are in place to help minimize the harm done. (When you did your 200kph sprint, were you wearing a helmet? )
Side note: While I have driven on the track, I have not raced on the track: I'm involved with the Porsche club's Driver's Education program, which is, in a nutshell, track driving without the competition.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Duke:<strong>
The other story:
Going on a beautiful dry highway/motorway a summer morning at 05:30 am (it's light here by then..). It's a two-lane road with "animal"-fences alongside the road and a big blockade to keep the lanes in the other direction apart.
The road is completely straight for at least 5000 meters and there is (of course) no other cars on the road. Driver B, (with quite worn Pzero Cup's that gives him the best possible grip on dry roads), accelerates for about 8 seconds and reaches the speed of 194 km/h. After a while at that speed, he once again reduces the speed to keep the limit.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">See my comments above. The biggest problem with this is there are too many uncontrollable factors involved with driving well over the limit on public roads! And there are no safety devices inplace to compensate for any problems! (Flaggers, helmets, run off areas...etc)
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Duke:<strong>
In this case I think Driver B is a safer driver.
And please don't give me any crap about story one not being the reality because it often is.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Your statement is exactly why I have a problem: you have an incorrect sense of safety! The reality is: doing what you did IS DANGEROUS: more dangerous that MOST track driving!
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Duke:<strong>
BTW, 130 mph is about 208 km/h.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Not bad guess on my part! hehe...
Again, for the record, I did not bring up any of this stuff until the "but what I did was safe" was brought into the thread. And I'm trying to bash for flame Duke here: just trying to point out some things that you may not have considered.
Too many people believe what they are doing is safe: that is a wrong assumption. Once you start posting here about what you did and how safe it was, you start getting others to think the same way. So they go out and try the same thing, and crash and burn.
Sorry for rambling, but I appreciate your comments,
-Z-man.
<strong>What makes "reckless driving" to me is not X or Y km/h above the limit. It is all about the circumstances. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Yes, the circumstances are very important. Your specific circumstances were: you were doing 200kph in a 90kph zone. That, IMHO, constitutes reckeless driving. Why? a few reasons:
1. The engineers who designed that stretch of highway deemed 90kph as the maximum allowable speed: there was a reason for that. (Government laws, the surrounding land, the traffic in that area, the length of the straights, the change in elevation...etc) Now, unless you have an engineering degree, and have field experience with setting safe speed limits on highways, I trust the people to determined the proper speed limit vs. your opinion.
2. Ok, if you want to toss out the first argument, then consider this: there is no guarantee that no one else would be on the stretch of road you were doing 200kph on! As a matter of fact, there WAS someone else: namely, the police officer who pulled you over! How do you think he got there? (see point #3
3. Most roads are not perfectly straight: all it takes is a small kink (bend) in the road to not see sufficiently ahead, and not notice a slower moving car that can be potentially in your way. As speed increases, stopping distances increase expontentially. By the time you see a car that was hiding behind such a turn, it's too late. (That's probably how the police got you: he was hiding somewhere!)
4. You mention animal fences on either side of the road: that means there is a possiblity of a broken fence, or some animal getting on the road.
5. The solid barrier you mention can literally launch you over to the other side. Higher speeds equals greater probability of this happening.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Duke again:<strong>
With your arguments it is correct of me to assume you also think everyone travelling on the German Autobahn is reckless drivers? Since most of the drivers there not only goes around 200 km/h but also keeps minimum distance to the car in front.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">No, I am not saying that: I never implied that. The highways with 200kph speed limits and higher are designed to handle cars travelling that fast. The lanes are typically wider, the markers bigger, the barriers are stronger...etc. And most importantly: the drivers on such highways are expecting people to be travelling at those speeds.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Duke again:<strong>
Regarding the track versus road comparision: I'm afraid this conversation can go on for a long time if we get it started, but I will give you a quick answer.
Imagine a rainy day at the track. The track is pretty crowdy. The track has a straight section of about 500 meters. Driver A has quite worn P-Zero Cup's but as usual and like the rest - he gives it the bone and is rushing at the end of the straight section, which is abruptly ended by a sharp turn, at a speed of 194 km/h. Driver A really thinks he's an experienced driver on the track and want's to cut his lap times. So there he is, on a crowded track, not the best rain tires, and is rushing at a sharp turn - while he is trying the master the art of "brake as late as possible"... No need to go on.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Nice story, but hardly imaginable. First, 99% of corners on race tracks where this can happen have run off areas (often paved) where a driver who 'over-cooked' the turn can bail out and safely slow down. Third, in racing, when it rains, drivers will run with rain tires. Secondly, in races in the rain, drivers will not be running at 10/10ths: that's just stupid. Drivers know this. Yes, incidents can occur: often people think they have more traction, and sometimes they go beyond the limits. And crashes do occur.
HOWEVER: there are certain factors that are present on the track that is NOT present on public roads. Namely:
1. Flaggers around the track will give the drivers status of what the track conditions are (if there's an accident, a yellow or red flag will be waved, for example). Flaggers are stationed at key spots: typically before blind corners and they are in radio communication. There is no such thing as this on the roads.
2. All of the drivers are typically going in the same direction: there's no opposing traffic to worry about.
3. Animals & innocent bystanders are eliminated.
4. As with the 200kph highways, people are expecting cars to be driven fast.
5. Driver on the track are required to have various forms of safety equipment, including: helmets, fire extinguishers, harnesses, roll-bars...etc. So if an accident does occur, the safety devices are in place to help minimize the harm done. (When you did your 200kph sprint, were you wearing a helmet?
)Side note: While I have driven on the track, I have not raced on the track: I'm involved with the Porsche club's Driver's Education program, which is, in a nutshell, track driving without the competition.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Duke:<strong>
The other story:
Going on a beautiful dry highway/motorway a summer morning at 05:30 am (it's light here by then..). It's a two-lane road with "animal"-fences alongside the road and a big blockade to keep the lanes in the other direction apart.
The road is completely straight for at least 5000 meters and there is (of course) no other cars on the road. Driver B, (with quite worn Pzero Cup's that gives him the best possible grip on dry roads), accelerates for about 8 seconds and reaches the speed of 194 km/h. After a while at that speed, he once again reduces the speed to keep the limit.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">See my comments above. The biggest problem with this is there are too many uncontrollable factors involved with driving well over the limit on public roads! And there are no safety devices inplace to compensate for any problems! (Flaggers, helmets, run off areas...etc)
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Duke:<strong>
In this case I think Driver B is a safer driver.
And please don't give me any crap about story one not being the reality because it often is.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Your statement is exactly why I have a problem: you have an incorrect sense of safety! The reality is: doing what you did IS DANGEROUS: more dangerous that MOST track driving!
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Duke:<strong>
BTW, 130 mph is about 208 km/h.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Not bad guess on my part! hehe...
Again, for the record, I did not bring up any of this stuff until the "but what I did was safe" was brought into the thread. And I'm trying to bash for flame Duke here: just trying to point out some things that you may not have considered.
Too many people believe what they are doing is safe: that is a wrong assumption. Once you start posting here about what you did and how safe it was, you start getting others to think the same way. So they go out and try the same thing, and crash and burn.
Sorry for rambling, but I appreciate your comments,
-Z-man.
04-30-2003, 01:31 PM
#66
Race Director
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Luis de Prat:
<strong>Zoltan, I am curious to know if you have ever driven a sports car on public roads outside the U.S. or Canada and if so, where?
As you probably know, it is considerably more difficult to get a driver's license in Europe than in the U.S. and to expand on the example set forth above by Duke, if you speed in the left lane, the majority of drivers have enough lane discipline for it to be less likely that you will encounter a dangerously slow vehicle in the fast lane.
I know this is different in the U.S., where I quit trying to pass on the left after sitting behind hundreds of trucks and soccer moms in vans hogging the left lane on highways in spite of the signs posted in many states reading "Keep right except to pass." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Luis,
While I have driven in Germany for a short time, I admit that I haven't had a sports car on the autobahn or any other super-highway in Europe.
But since I work for a German car company, I have many associates that travel back and forth between USA and Germany. Here's my opinion (based on feedback from my colleages) : while it is more difficult to obtain a driver's license in Germany, and the rules of the road are more strict, and the drivers in Germany are more obedient, the driving habits of Europeans are changing. Years ago (when I drove in Germany), passing on the right was never seen, but now it's commonplace, even though the fines for doing so are severe!
The drivers in the USA have little or no regard for the rules of the road, and that is terrible. (Example: not signalling when turning lanes: what are these people thinking? I'm supposed to GUESS what you're going to do next? Or are they really that LAZY they wish not to waste energy by hitting the turn signal!) Unfortunately, it seems these habbits are starting to take place in Europe as well. I predict that in a few years, the driving conditions in Europe will be very similar to our conditions in USA!
Incidentally, I rode with an intern in my company from Germany for a short stretch of highway at work. He was absolutely one of the worst drivers I had ever ridden with! No signalling, passing on the shoulder...etc! Scary!
-Z.
<strong>Zoltan, I am curious to know if you have ever driven a sports car on public roads outside the U.S. or Canada and if so, where?
As you probably know, it is considerably more difficult to get a driver's license in Europe than in the U.S. and to expand on the example set forth above by Duke, if you speed in the left lane, the majority of drivers have enough lane discipline for it to be less likely that you will encounter a dangerously slow vehicle in the fast lane.
I know this is different in the U.S., where I quit trying to pass on the left after sitting behind hundreds of trucks and soccer moms in vans hogging the left lane on highways in spite of the signs posted in many states reading "Keep right except to pass." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Luis,
While I have driven in Germany for a short time, I admit that I haven't had a sports car on the autobahn or any other super-highway in Europe.
But since I work for a German car company, I have many associates that travel back and forth between USA and Germany. Here's my opinion (based on feedback from my colleages) : while it is more difficult to obtain a driver's license in Germany, and the rules of the road are more strict, and the drivers in Germany are more obedient, the driving habits of Europeans are changing. Years ago (when I drove in Germany), passing on the right was never seen, but now it's commonplace, even though the fines for doing so are severe!
The drivers in the USA have little or no regard for the rules of the road, and that is terrible. (Example: not signalling when turning lanes: what are these people thinking? I'm supposed to GUESS what you're going to do next? Or are they really that LAZY they wish not to waste energy by hitting the turn signal!) Unfortunately, it seems these habbits are starting to take place in Europe as well. I predict that in a few years, the driving conditions in Europe will be very similar to our conditions in USA!
Incidentally, I rode with an intern in my company from Germany for a short stretch of highway at work. He was absolutely one of the worst drivers I had ever ridden with! No signalling, passing on the shoulder...etc! Scary!
-Z.
05-01-2003, 06:28 PM
#67
Race Director
Lots of thing qritten about how specially adjusted the autobahn is.
Check out this film, the driver here isn't doing anything illegal. Filmed on a stretch of road outside Flensburg on the german autobahn.
<a href="http://www.sportsbikerider.com/user...a%20300kmh.mpeg" target="_blank">http://www.sportsbikerider.com/user...a%20300kmh.mpeg</a>
Download it and watch, this driver obviously is taking stupid risks - I'm only posting it to visualize that there is really nothing special with the autobahn.
Regarding the warning flags on tracks you should see how fast drivers in europe hit their hazard indicators as soon as anythihing happens. On some car models they are even automatically activated when braking hard.
Check out this film, the driver here isn't doing anything illegal. Filmed on a stretch of road outside Flensburg on the german autobahn.
<a href="http://www.sportsbikerider.com/user...a%20300kmh.mpeg" target="_blank">http://www.sportsbikerider.com/user...a%20300kmh.mpeg</a>
Download it and watch, this driver obviously is taking stupid risks - I'm only posting it to visualize that there is really nothing special with the autobahn.
Regarding the warning flags on tracks you should see how fast drivers in europe hit their hazard indicators as soon as anythihing happens. On some car models they are even automatically activated when braking hard.
05-01-2003, 06:54 PM
#68
Burning Brakes
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by sweanders:
<strong> <a href="http://www.sportsbikerider.com/user...a%20300kmh.mpeg" target="_blank">http://www.sportsbikerider.com/user...a%20300kmh.mpeg</a>
Download it and watch.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">the link not workin'..
<strong> <a href="http://www.sportsbikerider.com/user...a%20300kmh.mpeg" target="_blank">http://www.sportsbikerider.com/user...a%20300kmh.mpeg</a>
Download it and watch.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">the link not workin'..
05-01-2003, 07:02 PM
#69
Drifting
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Z-man:
<strong>[QUOTE]1. The engineers who designed that stretch of highway deemed 90kph as the maximum allowable speed: there was a reason for that. (Government laws, the surrounding land, the traffic in that area, the length of the straights, the change in elevation...etc) Now, unless you have an engineering degree, and have field experience with setting safe speed limits on highways, I trust the people to determined the proper speed limit vs. your opinion.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Z-man, while I do agree with a lot of your points, I have to take up this one. Their is a highway called I-5 that runs up and down the west coast. The engineers designed it so that the vast majority of it could be driven safely at 115mph.
This point comes up often in Oregon when our state congress passes bills to raise the speed limit past 65mph. For the past 8 years these bills were always vetoed my the governor. We have a new governor now, so maybe the next one will get through.
Speed limits are not set by safety engineers, they are set by politicians. Remember the federally mandated 55mph we had for so long?
<strong>[QUOTE]1. The engineers who designed that stretch of highway deemed 90kph as the maximum allowable speed: there was a reason for that. (Government laws, the surrounding land, the traffic in that area, the length of the straights, the change in elevation...etc) Now, unless you have an engineering degree, and have field experience with setting safe speed limits on highways, I trust the people to determined the proper speed limit vs. your opinion.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Z-man, while I do agree with a lot of your points, I have to take up this one. Their is a highway called I-5 that runs up and down the west coast. The engineers designed it so that the vast majority of it could be driven safely at 115mph.
This point comes up often in Oregon when our state congress passes bills to raise the speed limit past 65mph. For the past 8 years these bills were always vetoed my the governor. We have a new governor now, so maybe the next one will get through.
Speed limits are not set by safety engineers, they are set by politicians. Remember the federally mandated 55mph we had for so long?
